To Be or Not to Be

[trustitl]

And another:

Psalm 15
Words: Isaac Watts

Characters of a saint.
1 Who shall inhabit in thy hill,
O God of holiness?
Whom will the Lord admit to dwell
So near his throne of grace?
2 The man that walks in pious ways,
And works with righteous hands;
That trusts his Maker's promises,
And follows his commands.
3 He speaks the meaning of his heart,
Nor slanders with his tongue;
Will scarce believe an ill report,
Or do his neighbor wrong.
4 The wealthy sinner he contemns,
Loves all that fear the Lord;
And though to his own hurt he swears,
Still he performs his word.
5 His hands disdain a golden bribe,
And never gripe the poor:
This man shall dwell with God on earth,
And find his heath secure.

 

[Whowillgo]

Here is a ‘Blessed’ Psalm just for you Steaver. :thumbs:


Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 ¶ The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Isa 64:6 ¶ But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

If righteousness in an truly existed then Christ need not have died.

 

[steaver]

Here is a ‘Blessed’ Psalm just for you Steaver. :thumbs:


Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 ¶ The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

A blessed psalm indeed :thumbs:

Now which verse is it that you believe is praising us?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

HP: May I answer this with a Scripture? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whose righteousness was Christ referring to when He said ‘your righteousness?’

Their own. Correct?

Here are your own words....HP;No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period.

So why do you continue to reference scripture which speaks of a man's own righteousnesses in an attempt to illustrate that his own righteousnesses is needed for salvation?

Which way is it? You have made statements in favor of both ways.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Which way is it? You have made statements in favor of both ways.

HP: Your failure to comprehend or at least admit to the distinction between the grounds of salvation and the conditions God has set forth to be saved does not necessitate error on the art of those that do have an understanding on that important distinction.

 

[steaver]

HP: Your failure to comprehend or at least admit to the distinction between the grounds of salvation and the conditions God has set forth to be saved does not necessitate error on the art of those that do have an understanding on that important distinction.

Should I take this as "I do not want to answer these questions"?

Here they are again.....

HP: May I answer this with a Scripture? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whose righteousness was Christ referring to when He said ‘your righteousness?’

Their own. Correct?

Here are your own words....HP;No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period.

So why do you continue to reference scripture which speaks of a man's own righteousnesses in an attempt to illustrate that his own righteousnesses is needed for salvation?

Which way is it? You have made statements in favor of both ways.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Just a reminder, waiting for answers to specific questions.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

HP: May I answer this with a Scripture? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whose righteousness was Christ referring to when He said ‘your righteousness?’

Their own. Correct?

Here are your own words....HP;No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period.

So why do you continue to reference scripture which speaks of a man's own righteousnesses in an attempt to illustrate that his own righteousnesses is needed for salvation?

Which way is it? You have made statements in favor of both ways.

God bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Here are your own words....HP;No man is saved on the account of his own righteousness. The grounds of salvation is the mercy of God period.

So why do you continue to reference scripture which speaks of a man's own righteousnesses in an attempt to illustrate that his own righteousnesses is needed for salvation?

Which way is it? You have made statements in favor of both ways.

HP: I am going to repost the prison illustration to highlight the distinction that exists between the grounds of salvation and the conditions of salvation that are seen best by the grounds and conditions of a pardon. There is no contradiction whatsoever to say that we are not saved for the sake of our righteousness, but neither will any one be saved apart from their obedience to Gods commands denoted as ‘their righteousness.’ Certainly no man can achieve a standing of righteous before God without first being cleansed by the blood of Christ through repentance and faith, yet just the same once cleansed man is required by God to maintain a standing of obedience via righteous behavior if their faith is to see the reality of the hope it now affords. Scripture is absolutely clear. An individual once made righteous can indeed turn from that righteousness by engaging in sin, remain unrepentant of it to the end, and by doing so forfeit the righteous standing and hope of eternal life they once enjoyed. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Now for the prison illustration.

A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. You cannot then consider any intents or actions as the grounds of his pardon, not could you say that he in any way could ‘merit’ a pardon. IF he is granted a pardon it cannot be said that in any sense his pardon was ‘for the sake of’ anything the prisoner had done or could do.

Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just. . If the prisoner is to receive a pardon it still can be said that there must be attitudes that are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word being something the prisoner must do. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal. Here we see that the intents and actions of the prisoner indeed do play a part in a pardon, though again, not in the sense of 'that for the sake of.' The sense that the intents and works of the prisoner are involved in a pardon can only be seen in the sense of 'not without which,' not 'that for the sake of.' Nothing the prisoner can or will do can merit a pardon, but just the same neither will he receive a pardon without repentance and an assurance of future behavior is garnered.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are again, in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on the account of any or all of their works. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’

It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’) in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

Such I believe is the case in our salvation. We indeed will be judged by our works, but our works are not the grounds of our salvation. There is no amount of works that can coerce God into granting us a pardon and therefore it can be properly said that we are not save ‘for the sake of' our righteousness. Although that is true, it still can be said that no man will be found in Him without works consistent with their faith. 1Jo 2:4 “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Nothing we do is meritorious, nor can anything we do be seen of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of' our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Christ can atone for a single sin. Just the same, God does command us to repent and be obedient to the end, bearing fruits of righteousness and holiness, ‘without which’ no man shall see the Lord.

 

[nunatak]

I agree that we never earn salvation. Salvation is by grace alone. Those who have been justified by grace through faith, will have good works. This does not have to be legislated. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. And, imo, these good works are not the necessarily the kind of works we think, but begin with faith, hope, and love.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Nunatak: And, imo, these good works are not the necessarily the kind of works we think, but begin with faith, hope, and love.

HP: Can you expound on this sentence some? Thanks.

 

[steaver]

Such I believe is the case in our salvation. We indeed will be judged by our works, but our works are not the grounds of our salvation. There is no amount of works that can coerce God into granting us a pardon and therefore it can be properly said that we are not save ‘for the sake of' our righteousness. Although that is true, it still can be said that no man will be found in Him without works consistent with their faith. 1Jo 2:4 “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Nothing we do is meritorious, nor can anything we do be seen of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of' our salvation. Nothing but the blood of Christ can atone for a single sin. Just the same, God does command us to repent and be obedient to the end, bearing fruits of righteousness and holiness, ‘without which’ no man shall see the Lord.

No offense HP, but the prison illustration does not come close to the gospel message found in God's Holy word.

What you present is confusion when you keep on presenting oxymorons in your statements.

I don't know what else I can do to help you understand your error. I know this, if you would teach this the way you have presented it here in this thread to a class you would have a bunch of dumbfounded faces staring back at you for sure. The Holy Spirit will not be woking with you on this one.

It seems you do understand that works cannot save, but you can't quite understand that once a person is saved they are created unto good works and will have some good works to their credit even if they failed at the many good works God created them to do.

True Christians do not do good works of righteousness to "stay saved". They do good works of righteousness because they "are saved", they have been regenerated, they are a new creature, they love God. Like Father, like son.

Your presentation is very confusing and I am afraid you will not profit any listeners with it. It's like you are very close to understanding the fine line between grace and works but just can't quite grasp it.

Works justifies one's faith (James), Works will never justify one's salvation (Paul). Ye are save by grace, works have no part in this. A Christian's works shall be judged, but the judgment is not for hell or heaven, grace through faith in the work of Christ has judged this already, works is a seperate issue of judgment for the saved.

I believe you do understand this in your heart, but you are confusing yourself in your mind. Seperate the two as does the scriptures and you will see that salvation is of the Lord, all grace through faith, and that works of righteousness is a product of faith. All of us will have some good and some bad. The fire will declare for us what we have done good and what we will have done poorly or wrong.

1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This verse really sums it up HP. Even if the man's works shall burn, disappear because they were not righteous, he himself shall be saved.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Please stop quoting Ez 18:24 as a loss of grace and salvation passage. By grace are ye saved HP. Please raying:

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[nunatak]

HP: Can you expound on this sentence some? Thanks.

Sure, with a verse that expresses my thoughts better:

Joh 6:28 So then they said to him, "What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires — to believe in the one whom he sent."

Just for example