Decided to respond just so that some might not be able to say that I could not... Which I'm sure will come up... Always does, even though I'm arguing with the boogey man.
No, because many scriptures are not relevant to the discussion. Why would we discuss genealogies for instance?
Okay... Just pick a book that is relevant... No cherry picking one verse.
I'm still UBER confident that God will be sovereign no matter where you read as long as you read an entire pericope instead of proof-texting one passage and ignore the fact that God arranged the circumstances to arrive at that one incident.
Well if everything a man does is decreed (which means a royal command by definition), then a mans actions are determined by God. You can say all night long you don't believe God is deterministic in a fatalist sense, but you simply contradict yourself. If God commands everything that will happen, then everything is determined, including evil.
Did I use the word "decreed" or did you?
This is what I posted -- and from that YOU derived "decreed." Shame on you...
glfredrick said:
From the beginning of my time on this board to now, I have not changed my own doctrines one iota. I have indeed denied LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL -- no such thing exists. I have supported "free moral agency" and stipulated that that agency is "limited" in scope. I have, in fact, argued FOR the position that God is NOT deterministic in a fatalistic sense over and over again. Just search my posts and find out.
Once you erect YOUR strawman "decreed" then of course you would find problems. I said what I said and I find no contradiction. That you cannot grasp an almighty God who is capable of both knowing and willing what He knows and wills -- and yet who does not deterministically ordain or decree every action -- is your problem not mine, for that IS what the Scriptures say. We have free moral agency, we are culpable -- without excuse -- for our sins, and yet, "God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" (and, BTW, those are the words of Jesus in case you don't recall...).
I find it odd that you cannot respond to WHAT I SAID, and instead have to modify my statement to have an argument to make. Again, shame on you.
It is not that I am afraid, it would simply be a waste of time, as not all scripture is relevant to the discussion at hand as I explained before. If anything, it is simply a deflection. I would rather discuss scripture like Jeremiah 32:35 which directly addresses the issues being discussed.
My stipulation is to discuss a book, not a cherry-picked verse out of context. And you are using the "time" issue as an escape from the desire to ACTUALLY dig into the Word the way you often suggest we ought.
I'm not afraid, but it certainly appears that you are.
Well, I don't know if you hold to Calvinist creeds, but most Calvinists say everything that comes to pass was ordained and decreed by God.
I am a Baptist. We do not hold "creeds." We hold the Word of God. Applying a "creed" to me is disingenuous.
Now, if I understand this creed, God UNCHANGEABLY ordains whatsoever comes to pass. YOU want to say he ALLOWED certain actions to come to pass. How can that be? If it cannot be changed, then it is determined, not allowed.
See above about creeds. But I do need to answer your greater question. Yes... God unchangable ordains whatsoever comes to pass. He is GOD. That is what He does. To say otherwise is to lower Him to our level and to suggest that He is not powerful to accomplish ALL that He wills.
But at the same time, that does NOT mean -- at all -- that God is also "deterministic" and we have AMPLE evidence, both in Scripture and in the testimony of lives for the entire history of the world that man has free moral agency and is culpable for his own sin.
What it DOES mean is that God can ordain whatsoever He wills and it WILL come to pass, and yet He does so in a manner that is sophisiticated on a level above our capacity to grasp (remember that "my ways are higher than your ways" passage?) whereby He KNOWS our will, and already has planned to accomplish His will while we make our moral choices.
THAT is what Calvin said. THAT is what Augustine said. THAT is what Luther said. And that is what I say -- BECAUSE -- THAT is what the Bible says.
If this creed is true, then the house of Israel and Judah had no choice but to sacrifice their children, it was ordained, and cannot be changed.
Yup... Tough verse, eh? One might come to the conclusion that without God no one would get saved! :thumbs:
I would agree that God is not the author of sin according to scripture, but we are talking about Calvinism.
And Calvinism is talking about God... THE BIBLE says that God is not the author of sin. Calvinists say that God is not the author of sin.
ARE YOU CALLING EITHER GOD OR CALVINISTS LIARS? Take heed my friend, that in your argumentative state that you do not press the argument to a place where you end up in an untennable position!
And I would call your view a contradiction. If the Jews HAD to sacrifice their children to idols because God ordained it and this cannot be changed, then it was determined by God.
No, they could have chosen otherwise and God told them to chose otherwise. But they did not, and therefore it was God's plan that they did not.
Look up the word ordain or decree in any dictionary, they do not mean allowed.
That is because you are reading into my words based on your own faulty understanding. (see above)
I really don't care what some dictionary says. I am much more concerned with what the Scriptures say IN CONTEXT based on an understanding of the original language and in concert with the whole counsel of God's Word.
YOU are the one struggling to see what the Word says -- that God both knows, ordains and yet allows human free moral agency, which makes us culpable.
DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT GOD IS DETERMINISTIC?
Nether do I say that God is deterministic, but you seem to REQUIRE that I say it. Perhaps you struggle with the concept of a God who will ultimately have His way, even if you do not like it... Many do. It is called "rebellion." It is a deadly sin!
So again, if God ordained and decreed all things that come to pass, why did God say he never commanded the Jews to sacrifice his children when according to your theology he indeed commanded or ordered this sin to take place?
You already know the answer to that question because I already told you, and further, you can look it up in any number of places. There is more than one way that God's will is expressed -- both as seen IN THE BIBLE and also in the ways that ALL theological doctrines express those concepts (yes, even yours).
Untrue, I got those definitions directly from a dictionary. It is you that is changing the meaning of the words ordained and decree, not me.
I do not recall making any argument based on a dictionary. I am making my arguments based on the WORD OF GOD which says that GOD is sovereign over EVERYTHING and that man has free moral agency and is culpable for his sin.
Basing your response to me on a dictionary entry is a red herring and totally misses the point.
Now, will you start the actual study of the Word or will you continue to run?
You did attempt to answer, and I thank you for that, but I do not find your argument convincing whatsoever. I find you contradict yourself and change the common definitions of well known words.
I have changed NO point and have been utterly consistent throughout my argument. You have, on the other hand, READ INTO much of what I have actually stated and created your own definitions -- that is a strawman argument.
I do not contradict myself, for what I say is IN the Bible. I allow for BOTH the sovereignty of God and the free moral agency of man. THAT is what it says over and over again.
As for the words I am using, they are "technical" theological terms that cannot be defined so easily with a common dictionary. Like any technical discipline, theology has its own database of word usage. You should try to learn of that discipline before you take me to task for "changing the meanings of words" for I find your red herring argument to be uninformed and ill-advised.
I was not making a point, I was asking you questions. If God ordains and decrees everything that comes to pass as most Calvinist confessions directly say, how could God deny that he commanded the Jews to sacrifice their children?
Already answered that. You just don't like the answer.
And if the only things that can come to pass are those things decreed and ordained by God, how can you say it was not his will that the Jews sacrificed their children to idols? It happened, and if it happened, God must have wanted it to happen because he ordained and decreed it.
See above. "Allowed" would be the proper term, for the "absence" of God is the presence of evil. God can remain sovereign and yet "allow" something to happen that brings about His greater will perfectly. Happens ALL THE TIME in Scripture. You should read it! :thumbs:
Answer these questions please.
Wasn't going to for the reasons I cited below, but I changed my mind. Guess I just exhibited my "free moral agency" and yet also God's sovereignty, for I belive that He desired that I answer these questions or else I would have just let them lay here. :smilewinkgrin:
