To Calvinists, Arminians, and those in-between

[Southern]

Brother Joe,
Tell me your opinion on the following items,

1.)Luke 1 shows that words(means) were spoken and Johns reaction was evidently to the words. Elisabeth said "the babe leaped in my womb for joy," and if this was John's joy, it implies that the joy resulted from the hearing the words of Mary in Luke 1:41. So if their is a such thing as prebirth regeneration this might be a case but it seems to be not without means. If this is true we have no more warrant to base our view on how sinners are ordinarily called or born again, then the example of the Apostle Paul being appeared to directly by Jesus Christ.

2.)Thief- heard the discussion around the cross and also their was an inscription over the cross. Any of these truths (means) could be used by the Holy Spirit to show him the essentials of the Gospel.

3.)Cornelius had already heard the word (means) before Cornelius came to his house.

4.)Nicodemus got a message (Means) (Jn. 3:16) from Jesus Himself.

I would welcome your comments, look forward to see your view.

In Christ

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Southern:


Thanks for your reply and hope you are having a good day.

YOU: Luke 1 shows that words(means) were spoken and Johns reaction was evidently to the words. Elisabeth said "the babe leaped in my womb for joy," and if this was John's joy, it implies that the joy resulted from the hearing the words of Mary in Luke 1:41

ME: The scripture never states that the baby in Elizabeth's womb heard a presentation of the gospel, also babies are incapable of understanding words. Further, I doubt you yourself belief that hearing the salutation of ones voice would be sufficient enough of a gospel presentation means to produce regeneration.


YOU: 2.)Thief- heard the discussion around the cross and also their was an inscription over the cross. Any of these truths (means) could be used by the Holy Spirit to show him the essentials of the Gospel.

ME: The gospel was never verbally presented by man in this situation. The Holy Spirit doesnt need signs or discussions to quicken an individuals heart. If you believe means are necessary for one to be born again, then WHAT means do you believe are necessary?

YOU: 3.)Cornelius had already heard the word (means) before Peter came to his house.

ME: Then why did God even send Peter over there?

YOU: 4.)Nicodemus got a message (Means) (Jn. 3:16) from Jesus Himself.

ME: Yes Nicodemus did hear the gospel, but in that same chapter Jesus tells Nicodemus specifically HOW one beomes born again and it excludes means, "7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

This analagy of the wind to how one is born again supports the no means doctrine. For if it be via the presentation of the gospel when one is born again then you would know a specific time it occurred and it wouldnt be like the wind when one, "canst tell whence it cometh", this passge would then be false.

Scripture makes it clear that regeneration is a sole act of God. Brother Southern, what is your opinion on this regeneration passage ( please notice how GOD is the sole participant and no means are mention by man). Pay paticular attention to all of God's "I WILL"s in the passage:

"25 Then WILL I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, WILL I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also WILL I give you, and a new spirit WILL I put within you: and I WILL take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I WILL give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I WILL put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Eze 36:25-27)

Scripture tells us faith is fruit of the Holy Spirit, therefore one must first have the Holy Spirit to believe the gospel. We believe the gospel because we already have a new heart from God, NOT to get a new heart.

Saved by grace,


Brother Joe

 

[pinoybaptist]

IFB Reformer asked:

Can you show any instance in scripture where someone was regenerated, but not converted?

Have you considered Peter ? Luke 22:32. In your opinion, when was he converted ? What conversion is Jesus talking about which should happen to Peter ?

As for me, I am inclined to believe that at this point, Peter is regenerated, his conversion had certainly began (it is the conversion which is a process, not the regeneration, regeneration is a spiritual event that God alone makes to happen).

He knew who Christ was (Mt. 16:16, Mark 8:29, John 6:69);

He knew Christ alone possesses eternal life, and Christ only is its dispenser (John 6:68);

But he did not know, or had not accepted (acquiesced, if you will) that the Savior must die in order for dead sinners to live (Matt. 16:22; John 12:24);

He had not realized at that point that Jesus, being God, stands separate and above all redeemed sinners, and above all of the great men of Israel (Mt. 17:4);

Also, consider his character before and after the cross, and the resurrection.

How about doubting Thomas ? Consider : He was one of the twelve, Jesus acknowledged him as one of His chosen, he followed Jesus wherever Jesus went, He was a regenerate soul, one of God's own children, elect according to the mercy and foreknowledge of God. One of those for whom Jesus 'set His face to go to Jerusalem'.

When do you think he was converted ? Was he a convert before the resurrection, or after ?

 

[Southern]

Brother Joe,
I think I see what you are trying to say. I thought you were saying they were saved without means but you were trying to prove that they were regenerated "before" they were converted.
Mistake on my part!

You did raise a number of ideas in your post.

First of all, if it was indeed John the Baptist's "joy" that he leaped in. What caused him to "leap in joy".

Hope this is a simple starting discussion question.

In Christ.

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Southern,

YOU:I think I see what you are trying to say. I thought you were saying they were saved without means but you were trying to prove that they were regenerated "before" they were converted.
Mistake on my part!

ME: Yes, I (like pinoybaptist) was attempting to prove that one becomes regenerated prior to being converted via the gospel, however I also believe one is regenerated without any means by man and soley by the means of the Holy Spirit.

If I may ask, do you believe in regeneration by means, and if so what means do you believe must be present?

YOU: What caused him to "leap in joy".

ME: The sound of Mary's voice.

God bless and enjoy service tommorrow brother Southern.

Brother Joe