To Calvinists, What is 'Irresistible Grace'?

[Hardsheller]

So you believe in an "effect" without a humanly discernable "cause" beyond you didn't believe one moment but believed the next? How do you know this originated inside you (by HS regeneration) and not outside you (by preaching)?

skypair

Sky P.....

I know this because the Bible confirms my experience.

The Gospel must be preached before Salvation can occur.

The Bible teaches that

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The Bible also says that we are born again from above and not by our own will or by our own flesh.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Grace of God through Jesus Christ his son is the cause that effects salvation in an individual's heart.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Does this originate in me? No way - it originated with God who called me, revealed himself to me, convicted me, drew me, regenerated me. He sought me, I did not seek him.

In response to His saving work in us as individuals we believe, repent, confess and are fully aware of every thing we are doing.

Does God use Preaching to call us? absolutely. But unless God empowers the word preached by the preacher and enables the sinner to believe there will be no salvation.

 

[skypair]

I know this because the Bible confirms my experience.

Something confirms your experience, for sure.

The Gospel must be preached before Salvation can occur.

Amen! "General calling," you call it, right? No "special calling" without "general calling," right?

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

So "word of God" brings "hearing" brings "faith." So it's the "word of God" that allows you to "hear," correct? Not "election," not "regeneration" -- cause those aren't mentioned here, are they? Well, that matches with 1Pet 1:23 -- "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,..."

The Bible also says that we are born again from above and not by our own will or by our own flesh.

Have you ever considered that there might be a "will of the soul" that is counter to the "will of the flesh?" The so-called "good angel-bad angel at either ear" type of debate within you? Because there is an awareness of God in us all as spoken by Paul in Rom 1 and by Solomon in Ecc 3:11, right? Remember, that lays the groundwork for "no excuses."

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [/SIZE]

There you have it!! Believed and received! He GAVE them (upon their belief and repentance) REBIRTH as "children of God!" Like I also said, "Belief -- regeneration -- faith!" Are not even your own verses convincing you?

The Grace of God through Jesus Christ his son is the cause that effects salvation in an individual's heart.

Most assuredly true! But it is no cause unless believed there. The heart doesn't actually turn from "stone" to "flesh." That's imagery to say that the heart is not hardened against God but is now softened to His will, right? It's mental, emotional, and willful defenses are torn down to the receiving of God's truth. How is that? By logic, by love, by conviction.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Yes, salvation is a gift --- SELDOM reveived!! SELDOM BELIEVED!!

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Nobody's boasting. Well, the Catholics maybe.

Does this originate in me? No way - it originated with God who called me, revealed himself to me, convicted me, drew me, regenerated me. He sought me, I did not seek him.

I know you took great care to get those activities in order, hardshell. But even "effectual calling" includes revealing, convicting, drawing. So why pretend that "calling" is some mystical thing that enables you to suddenly "see?"

In response to His saving work in us as individuals we believe, repent, confess and are fully aware of every thing we are doing.

That's more like it -- believe, repent, confess and, like John 1:12 we are born into God's family/reborn/regenerated.

Does God use Preaching to call us? absolutely. But unless God empowers the word preached ...

The word is ALWAYS empowered, hardshell. Dr Rogers used to say "the Spirit inhabits the word." I'm sure there is scripture for that. Paul said, I came to you, not in the wisdom of men but in demonstration of the Spirit and power (of God's word).

If you really are looking for how the work of God gets into you and "elects" (I prefer saves myself), it is through the same word everyone else hears but doesn't believe.

skypair

 

[Hardsheller]

Sky P.....

We are never going to agree on this.

You see apples...I see oranges....we both see fruit.

You wrote: "Have you ever considered that there might be a "will of the soul" that is counter to the "will of the flesh?" The so-called "good angel-bad angel at either ear" type of debate within you? Because there is an awareness of God in us all as spoken by Paul in Rom 1 and by Solomon in Ecc 3:11, right? Remember, that lays the groundwork for "no excuses."

No I've never considered it because it is NOT CLEARLY TAUGHT in scripture that this is so. This is the Classic Herschel Hobbs philosophy restated - "God votes for you, the Devil votes against you and you cast the deciding vote." Hobbs conveniently forgot that God never lost an "election". He also failed to see that this human centered philosophy equated God with the Devil and put man on the same level as both.

As far as your other points in the post. Ho hum. Same O, Same O. I expected clearer arguments.

You put the salvation of man in man's hands, I put it in God's hands. The preaching of the Word is the Means God has chosen to bring about the Salvation of the Elect.

You seem to imply that God convicts everyone to the same degree when they hear the Preached Word. I disagree. There is no Biblical proof that this is so, nor is their any verifiable evidence apart from Scripture that substantiates this belief. The Saved give evidence of what God has wrought in their hearts - Regeneration. The unsaved give no testimony that bears any credibility because they cannot understand the Spiritual things of God. This is mere theory.

The Calvinist believes we have a responsibility to preach the Gospel to all humanity. It is God's job to use that preaching to affect Salvation among the Elect.

 

[skypair]

You wrote: "Have you ever considered that there might be a "will of the soul" that is counter to the "will of the flesh?" The so-called "good angel-bad angel at either ear" type of debate within you? Because there is an awareness of God in us all as spoken by Paul in Rom 1 and by Solomon in Ecc 3:11, right? Remember, that lays the groundwork for "no excuses."

Hey, it was merely a simplification verified by Paul in Rom 1.

You put the salvation of man in man's hands, I put it in God's hands. The preaching of the Word is the Means God has chosen to bring about the Salvation of the Elect.

Here's what you have, hardshell:

"Insufficient justification:

The phenomena of experiencing a belief change when forced to act against one's beliefs with low external justification."

Make of that what you will but it has all the essentials that you seem to insist on: 1) irresistible 2) belief change with 3) little or no evidence necessary. The thrust of this is that one doesn't really have sufficient knowledge to base one's new belief on.

You seem to imply that God convicts everyone to the same degree when they hear the Preached Word. I disagree.

I would too. Not everyone is as guilty as the next man/woman. But the word is going to be the word that goes out to all in the same language (assuming common language skills) regarding something convicting. There's nothing "magical" in one person that isn't there in another. That would be one of those preexisting "merits" to salvation which Calvinism clearly denies.

skypair

 

[Hardsheller]

Hey, it was merely a simplification verified by Paul in Rom 1.

Here's what you have, hardshell:

"Insufficient justification:

The phenomena of experiencing a belief change when forced to act against one's beliefs with low external justification."

Make of that what you will but it has all the essentials that you seem to insist on: 1) irresistible 2) belief change with 3) little or no evidence necessary. The thrust of this is that one doesn't really have sufficient knowledge to base one's new belief on.

I would too. Not everyone is as guilty as the next man/woman. But the word is going to be the word that goes out to all in the same language (assuming common language skills) regarding something convicting. There's nothing "magical" in one person that isn't there in another. That would be one of those preexisting "merits" to salvation which Calvinism clearly denies.

skypair

I still hear the old Campbellite mantra coming through in your posts. "Knowledge - Knowledge - Knowledge" If someone just possesses enough knowledge then he can turn to Christ.

NOT EVERYONE IS AS GUILTY AS THE NEXT PERSON?????? Where does that come from? The Bible clearly teaches that all are lost and guilty of the worst sin imaginable - that of unbelief.

Remember the book of Luke chapter 24 - 11 men had walked with Jesus for 3 years and now they sat in a room depressed, not knowing what to do or where to turn and then - are you sure you're ready for this? Jesus comes in and after some amazing moments in which they are pinching themselves and wondering that he's still alive....

Luk 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Now you tell me if after 3 years with Jesus these 11 guys still had to have Jesus Christ "open their minds' that people today can skip this part and just believe on their own?

God regenerates - He turns the heart and he opens the mind to the understanding of the Scriptures.

Salvation is a God initiated act of regeneration in every case not just an individual human reaction to a book, a sermon or a gospel presentation.

INSUFFICIENT JUSTIFICATION???

You Bet - Man doesn't have any sufficiency on his side. All he brings to the equation is sin and a unwillingness to obey God.

But Thanks be To God, He (God) Makes us Alive, though we were Dead in our trespasses and sins, in Christ Jesus.

I'll preach it till I die. Salvation is all of God. It is a God thing!

Resistable? Not when He (Jesus) looks up in your tree like he looked up in Zachaeus's tree and calls you by name and invites himself into your life.

 

[jne1611]

Something confirms your experience, for sure.




Have you ever considered that there might be a "will of the soul" that is counter to the "will of the flesh?" The so-called "good angel-bad angel at either ear" type of debate within you? Because there is an awareness of God in us all as spoken by Paul in Rom 1 and by Solomon in Ecc 3:11, right? Remember, that lays the groundwork for "no excuses."


skypair

What are you suggesting confirms his experience?

Have you got any Scripture for this idea? Is not the spirit dead before salvation? We know that in the flesh dwells no good thing. But are you suggesting a conflict with in the soul with some kind of good within? A good will & a bad will? That conflict is never taught before regeneration. Rom 1 teaches outward manifestations of God that makes man inexcusable for what he witnesses. I'll agree that far. But, That is not a saving knowledge. It is a knowledge of God as Ruler of all, that makes man accountable to God, to obey his Word as to moral conduct. Even Gentile cities in the Old Testament that did not know God were judged for open rebellion against God's Rule.