To lie or not to lie

[Briguy]

At our AWANA group last night the leader taught, based on God's word, that it is never, ever, in any situation, "right" to lie(and so we should not lie in any situation). He used the catch phrase "situational ethics" for any situation that someone can come up with that they feel lying is justified.

I have other thoughts but would like to see where others come down on this. What does everyone think about that teaching?

Make sure you are 100% honest with your answers

In Christ,
Brian

 

[HankD]

Here is a "situation":

I buy a bottle of olive oil. It says on the label 100% olive oil.
I use half of it and fill it up the rest of the way with corn oil without changing the label.
The oil in the bottle is now 50% olive oil, 50% corn oil, though the label says 100% olive oil.

Is what I have done unethical?
Am I lying to everyone who uses my oil?

What if a store owner tried to sell 50% olive oil 50% corn oil in a bottle labeled 100% olive oil?

Why is it OK for me to do but not the store owner?
What's the difference?

Situation: Location, site, condition, circumstances. Merriam Webster.

The situation. The home owner versus the store owner situation.

So, what is unethical in one situation may not be in another.

HankD

[ October 10, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Abiyah]

It is my opinion that anything done in order to
deceive is a lie and is, therefore, immoral.

 

[HankD]

But Abiyah, I'm not trying to deceive anyone just stretch my olive oil with corn oil.

Here is another situation: hair coloring.
Am I deceiving others if I color my hair (I don't

)?
What if I curl my hair (I don't

) and it's not naturally curly?

HankD

[ October 10, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Abiyah]

Hi, Hank! You don't know how often I have been
tempted to just hop in the car and take a long
Sunday drive, ending up in your church for
morning service. 8o)

My letter was not directed toward your situation,
but I will address it here.

Originally posted by HankD:
But Abiyah, I'm not trying to deceive anyone just stretch my olive oil with corn oil.

If you place your oils together for yourself, with
no intention of deceiving, there is nothing wrong
with your action. If you did it to make another
believe that you are a user of olive oil, rather
than another oil, that is deception and is,
therefore, a lie.

Here is another situation: hair coloring.
Am I deceiving others?
What if I curl my hair (I don't

) and it's not naturally curly?

HankD

I color my hair. I do not consider that a decep-
tion. But I don't care who knows that I have it
dyed; when anyone asks, I say it's dyed. I have
told people that if I did not have my hair dyed, I
would look like I was my husband's mother,
because his hair has no gray, except in his
beard.

I recognize there are those who will not dye,
curl, or cut their hair because they believe this
is deception. I do not agree. If this were decep-
tion, then so is mowing and caring for our lawn,
which is also God-made and in an unnatural
state as soon as we make improvements upon
it. Or, to make it a more personal situation, if
dying or curling our hair is deception, then what
about manicuring our nails? Maybe those who
will not do these things to their hair should let
their nails just grow also.

 

[Abiyah]

Isn't it nice to finally see what Briguy looks like?
Ii love these photos. There really are real people
behind these posts!

Thank you, Briguy!

 

[dumbox1]

The classic "test case" I've always heard for this issue (and y'all have probably heard it, too) is this:

During World War II, the Nazis knock on the door of your Hamburg home and ask, "Are there any Jews hiding in your basement?"

And, in fact, there are.

(For the sake of the discussion, please assume that the situation is such that you can't weasel around the issue -- for example, assume that if you say "no" the SS really will go away, that if you say nothing they'll search your basement anyway, that there's no way to "truthfully" answer their question in a non-revelatory way, etc.)

 

[Abiyah]

Corrie ten Boom wrote that she regretted her
lies and that her lie was what led to their impri-
sonment. She wrote that her sister's refusal to
lie, rather to rely upon our God, was what kept
them safe so long.

Dr. Diane M. Komp wrote a book about her
odyssy from dishonesty to honesty, titled
(anatomy of a lie), Zondervan Publishing Com-
pany,1998. Excellent book.

[ October 10, 2002, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Eladar]

I believe my answer would be:

If the Nazis were in control of my country, I'd either be dead or in another country.

 

[Briguy]

Abiyah, I like the pictures too, you feel like you are real communicating with a person and not a name. Thank you for your picture as well!!!!

You guys have really hit on the real issue here. I am always honest and so will give my honest opinion. Biblically speaking if we have faith in God we will trust him to take care of any situation. we can tell the truth in any situation because we know God sees what happening and we can trust him. That is the truth of the Bible.

However, As I know that is how i should respond to any situation, it is not what I would do in every situation. For example. A man starts to break into my house when just my son and I are home. I hear the noise and send him to hide in the basement, in a cabinet behind sleeping bags. The man gets in has a gun and tells me that my family and I are going to die. He asks me if anyone else is in the house. I should respond that, "yes, my son is in the basement, in a cabinet, behind the sleeping bags." I know myself well enough to know I would say I was alone. Yes, I am not fully trusting God in that situation but that is the reality. I may repent of the lie later but I would lie in that situation.

Lord, forgive my lack of faith.

In WW2 Gemany I probably would have lied to the Nazi's as well. (man, am I looking bad now )

In Christ,
Brian

[ October 10, 2002, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[Abiyah]

Briguy --

Who is worse: the one who outright lies or the
one who deceives? And who is worse: the one
who admits he would outright lie or the one who
considers the situation and thinks, "I would
probably deceive." There is a difference.

Before I go into explaining what I mean in the
above paragraph,. taking the situation you gave,
why would you give details? Telling the truth
does not mean that you must give all the details.

Reading the Bible, we know that our God does
not give all the details, yet He embodies Truth.
As a parent, when my child asked me, "How
does the baby get inside the mother's tummy?"
I did not give all the details. Ii said what was
necessary for an answer and what was age-
appropriate. She learned the details when
she could handle them.

In your situation, were I totally honest when the
person asked if someone else was in the house,
all I would have to answer and remain honest
would be, "Yes," or say nothing at all. I would
opt for the latter.

However, back to my first paragraph, my first
thought was that I would probably fall into the
trap of deceiving. I was reared to deceive,
taught this from very early in life, with it being
reinforced throughout my formative years and
until I left my childhood home. As a result, my
first inclination is to deceive, but my final action
is to tell the truth.

The difference? A lie is usualy an outright lie; a
deception can be telling the truth in such a way
as to deceive, which means that in the end, the
truth becomes a lie. So the truth, told to be a
lie, could be saying, with a sneer, "Sure. Right.
Someone else is in here." And with the right
body language, that truth would be a lie.

For example, my first inclination, in your situ-
ation would be to say one of the following:
"What does it look like to you, jerk?"
"What do you think?/ You think I would stand
here and take your garbage if someone was here
who could help me?"
"Sure! And my 6-foot-5, 230 pound husband is
in the door way, his father is behind you, and
in fact, the whole house is full of people! Can't
you see them?"
And all these would be deceptions. So who is
less of a liar?

But in your situation, I would not answer.
Although my inclination is to say the above, I
would say nothing, clamming up immediately,
and praying that our God would keep us both
safe but especially that my son would escape.

[ October 10, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Briguy]

A, Thanks for the post. I appreciate the thought that went into it. The AWANA leader last night would have said that not answering when you know the answer is lying as well. Saying nothing could be thought of as dishonest and God by character is truth so dishonesty is not an option.

I think though you may be right in not answering as I recall Jesus not answering P. Pilot(sp?) when he, Jesus, knew the answers. Maybe a non answer would be best. Though I would still do whatever at the time seemed best to save my son.

I guess I am still trying to figure out where I stand.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Briguy:
I think though you may be right in not answering as I recall Jesus not answering P. Pilot(sp?) when he, Jesus, knew the answers. Maybe a non answer would be best. Though I would still do whatever at the time seemed best to save my son.

I think the deomonstration Jesus gave is indeed a great indication of what one must do.

I wonder how and why a child of God would not think that trusting in God and obeying His Word would never seem like the best thing to do.

God despises lying. The question is, do we trust God enough to obey Him even in difficult times? Many apostles and great men of God are dead today for that very reason, they obeyed God, even unto thier death.

I think it comes down to your faith, is it strong enough to get us through the tough times?

What would I do? I hope I would always tell the truth, but I am human and in a moment of fear, I might cave in. But I do know what we are supposed to do. God fogives lying, but I dare say that he never condones it. I believe that He will always honor truth, and I hope and pray that my faith in Him will help me practice that no matter what the consequences would be.

~Lorelei

 

[CatholicConvert]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a properly used lie. God Himself used lies when it suited His purpose: (NOTE: I did NOT say that God is a liar. I am showing that He uses deciet upon those who deserve it in order to bring judgement upon them. But the point is, nonetheless, that God decieved them by third party means!!)

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

So -- What about DAT!!!?

I really wish the so called "Bible Teachers" who infest this land like so many cockroaches would actually READ THE TEXT instead of shooting off their mouths without sufficient study.

Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

De 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

I hope you see what I see (and what should be plain to all who look at these verses). The type of "false witness" which is prohibited is

THAT WHICH DOES HARM TO ANOTHER PERSON!!!

So, in keeping with the express outline of the Decalogue, any form of speech which slanders another's character, decieves him into doing something not in his best interests, presents him in an unjust and unwarranted way to others, or cheats him from that which is legitimately his, is WRONG.

Going now to our two examples -- the olive oil situation falls under this example. The customer THINKS he is buying pure and 100% olive oil and is getting his money's worth. He is not. He is being HURT by being defrauded. This is quite clear and unambiguous. Unfortunately, American business seems to run on these kinds of principles.

As for the Nazis, lying to them is justified because a greater harm would come from telling them the truth -- the destruction of innocent lives. No man who does evil has a right to the truth to further his evil plans.

Now let me give you a theoretical situation. (No, this is NOT something which has happened to me) Suppose you received $25,000 as a cash (and therefore untracebable) gift and know that if you declare this amount, 30% will go to support abortion on demand, homosexual deviance, or some other form of government malfeasance.

What would YOU do?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[ October 10, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: CatholicConvert ]

 

[Johnv]

I agree with Abiyah. Doing something for the purpose of inappropriate deception is a sin.

Notice, I said "inappropriate deception".

Keeping the fact that you're a convicted child molester is a sin. But keeping the fact that you sleep in the nude is a matter of personal privacy.

Lying to one's parents about where you went Saturday is a sin, but Corrie Ten Boom lying about not hiding any Jews in her house during WW2 was not a sin.

Not changing the label on your olive oil probably isn't a sin, but lying about the contents if someone asks might be.

BTW - in US consumer law, there's a stipulation that says a label or consumption statement MUST accurately represent the contents. This is also true of restaurants. If you get a bottle of Heinz ketchup on your table, they are not allowed to refill it with Hunts or Ralph's brand ketchup. Also, it must be ketchup, not catsup. Another example. If the menu says toast with butter, a restaurant may not serve you toast with margerine.

[ October 10, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Lorelei]

Catholic Convert,

God has sent lying Spirits to those who wanted to hear lies. Just as we are told in Romans, God allowed men to do things even that He despised.

Rom 1:24-25

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.
NIV

You quote a few verses about lying to our neighbor and act like that is all the Bible has to say about lying. Well, here are a few more.

Leviticus 19:11
"`Do not steal. "`Do not lie. "`Do not deceive one another." NIV

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
13
The remnant of Israel will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid." NIV

In the future no one will speak lies, period. No word about lies that do not injure or hurt someone else.

Psalm 5:5
The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
6
You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors. NIV

Psalm 34:13
keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. NIV

Psalm 120:2
Save me, O LORD, from lying lips and from deceitful tongues. NIV

This is just a few that don't specify lying only to another person. These are pretty plain. To lie is to sin. Period.

Originally posted by Catholic Convert:
for the Nazis, lying to them is justified because a greater harm would come from telling them the truth -- the destruction of innocent lives.

According to whom? You or God?

Ezek 13:18-19
19 You have profaned me among my people for a few handfuls of barley and scraps of bread. By lying to my people, who listen to lies, you have killed those who should not have died and have spared those who should not live.
NIV

We like to think that WE can make those decisions about when it is right to lie and when it is not, but God has already decided that. He tells us in His Word "Do not lie". There is no room for argument. It is man's vanity that allows him to think that he can play God and determine for himself when he will or will not obey God's word.

Originally posted by Catholic Convert:
Suppose you received $25,000 as a cash (and therefore untracebable) gift and know that if you declare this amount, 30% will go to support abortion on demand, homosexual deviance, or some other form of government malfeasance.

Only one's greed would make this case ever seem appropriate. If you truly don't want to allow the money to support those things, then turn down the gift. However, no matter what the taxes go for, if taxes are due, Jesus said "Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's." He never said "Unless you have an excuse that you feel is valid not to". Do you think that the taxes paid to Ceasar never went to anything that God didn't like? Only a fool would believe such a thing.

This again, is just man's attempt to play God. God hates lying, we are to obey God. There is no question as to what one must do when it comes to lying, just whether or not you trust God enough to do what is right.

~Lorelei

 

[HankD]

Thanks Abiyah,

I used to try to hide my gray, but then it became an overwhelming task, so...

Now I look like my wife's father.

In fact, the first time we went to the Church here, at a potluck afterwards, my wife was in line and I was sitting. The pastor asked me what my daughter's name was.

HankD

[ October 10, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Deacon]

I'll throw in two scriptural examples of lying:
1)Rahab and 2)the Hebrew midwives.
God honored them dispite their decept of an unjust authority.

[ October 10, 2002, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Deacon ]

 

[Briguy]

Thanks everyone for your HONEST answers. It felt as if everyone was answering from their heart.
I think the example of Rahab is good because she is mentioned in Hebrews in the "hall of Faith"(or whatever that is called) section. Certainly Rahab is known now for her faith and not as a great liar. I asked my wife about my "hidden son" example and she said she would lie in that situation as well. She commented that maybe the "hiding place" is the way God chose to keep our son safe and we wouldn't want to mess that up. I'm thinking now that keeping silent is not a sin. I know some will disagree but we do have the example of Jesus to look at.

Ed, I see your point and I see L's point. I hope you are able to respond to her as I would like to see what other scripture you use to back your position. There is no way to deny that God used lying and even caused it by giving a lying spirit, but God is God and can reach people or punish people as he sees fit and by any method he chooses, right?

Again, good stuff!! Anyone else to join in?

In Christ,
Brian

[ October 11, 2002, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[Abiyah]

Ed --

Lorelei already answered you and
answered you well, I might add. I will also
answer.

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with
a properly used lie. God Himself used lies
when it suited His purpose . . . 1Ki 22:22
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a
lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.
And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and
prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD
hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all
these thy prophets, and the LORD hath
spoken evil concerning thee. . . .

So -- What about DAT!!!?

I really wish the so called "Bible Teachers"
who infest this land like so many
cockroaches would actually READ THE
TEXT instead of shooting off their mouths
without sufficient study.

Ed, did you read the whole text or just pull these
verses out of your concordance? I, while I do
not claim to be a teacher but actually read
the Bible, will answer you. Then you may
decide my status as "cockroach" and whether
or not I am "shooting off [my] mouth . . . without
sufficient study." 8o)

Our God has decided that all sin, lying included,
will bring on discipline. When Pharaoh made
his decision against Israel, our God hardened his
heart in order to use what Pharaoh had already
decided, in order to work His own purpose. Was
our God a partner in Pharaoh's sin? No.

In the same way, Saul made his decision, and
he was tormented by an evil spirit from our God.
This, again, was because of Saul's decision.

We can all think of many other similar biblical
examples of times when human beings have
made their decisions, and our God gave them
over to their evil desires. That does not make
our God a partner in their sin; rather, He allows
them their own will.

Jehoshaphat was king of Judah; Ahab was king
of Israel. Jehoshaphat came down to see Ahab,
being kindred under God's promise to their
father Abraham. Jehoshaphat wanted to
reinforce that kinship, and he told Ahab that
they were the same, J's people were A's people,
J's war implements were A's war implements.
He then told Ahab that he must ask the LORD
before engaging battle.

But Ahab's mind was made up: he wanted to go
to battle. He called the "prophets"--the yes-men
of Ahab--to get a word from them. They pro-
phesied what they knew he wanted to hear:
success.

Jehoshaphat saw through them and inquired if
there was a "prophet of the LORD besides."
Ahab said that there was this Micaiah, but he
hated him because he was not a yes-man like
the others. Micaiah was brought in where the
yes-man-prophets continued their fake
prophecies, and was told that he had better
say the same things.

Initially, in answer to this request, Miciah mocks
them by retorting, "Go, and prosper: for the
LORD shall deliver into the hand of the king."

But the king was in no mood for snide remarks;
he demanded a true prophecy. So Micaiah gave
it to him--all Israel (not Judah) would be
scattered upon the hills as sheep without a
shepherd, because the LORD had said that they
have no master. Ahab got angry at the prophecy.

It is then that it is told how, because Ahab had
already determined to have his way, a lying
spirit was sent to his prophets so that they
would say what he wanted to hear.

In a similar incident, satan went before our
God to accuse Job. Job had just as much
chance to give in to satan as wicked Ahab had
to give in, but because evil was not the purpose
of Job, Job did not give in.

Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

De 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

I hope you see what I see (and what should be plain to all who look at these verses). The type of "false witness" which is prohibited is

THAT WHICH DOES HARM TO ANOTHER PERSON!!!

So, in keeping with the express outline of the Decalogue, any form of speech which slanders another's character, decieves him into doing something not in his best interests, presents him in an unjust and unwarranted way to others, or cheats him from that which is legitimately his, is WRONG. . . . [/b]

"But . . . all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Rev 21:8

[ October 11, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]