To My Calvinist Brethren

Thank you--both of you. I was not sure. 8o)

 

Woah there Abiyah, I think you went from Hyper to milder Calvinism

You just mentioned that family confrontation

Arminians believe that Christians CAN and DO sin and that they can lose their salvation because of it - well majority of Arminians

Thats one of the major things that makes Arminianism the opposite of Calvinism

That father was speaking pure Calvinism baby - the good HYPER kind the Im elect and yer not brand.

Simple Comparison

see the bottom of the page

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03198a.htm

This is one is a little long but the area you want is around the middle talking about reprobates

Some more history

Jacobus Arminius died almost ten years before the controversy over his teachings came to a head. The intolerance continued and ultra-Calvinism was reaffirmed at The Synod of Dort (1618-19) to combat the ongoing influence of Arminius. A group of Arminius' followers, known as Remonstrants (reproof, to correct) issued a protest called the Five Articles to the Reformed Church of Holland. They were led by two men, Simon Episcopius, and Jan Uytenbogaert in 1610. Basically, the articles were as follows:

1 - God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving.
2 - Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
3 - Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit.
4 - All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.
5 - Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.

Point 5 - caused a split later in the Arminian camp in that some believed salvation could be lost; while others were adamant that it merely meant our relationship with Christ was damaged or impaired until we confessed our sin and asked Jesus to repair it, by the forgiveness of sins

 

Abiyah,

No one would doubt your real life story while attending the campmeeting. The problem is one cannot blame a balanced denominational teaching on the basis of an average misinformed member of said denomination. Wesleyan doctrine encourages their people not to sin against God as do all Christian denominations. If you really want to know the denominational view you might ask a Systematic theology teacher at Nazarene Theological Seminary in the mid-west of our great nation. Also, I am sure that the a theological person at Houghton College, New York could give you their exacting teaching. I am sure their pastors know that Christians can sin and that there is always forgiveness and restoration for all of God's people.

Your example, of a misinformed brother is about as fair as saying that those who believe in eternal security teach that after you are saved you can commit any amount or kind of sins and still go to Heaven while living in sin.

 

And this is why your objections to Calvinism should not be the basis for rejecting it. Your state of being "misinformed" does not invalidate the truth of the teaching. Of course, we have said this for a long time and have demonstrated where your knowledge falls short. The truth of doctrine depends on its conformity to Scripture; it does not depend on how the opposition can misword or misrepresent it.

 

Larry its not hard to be informed about Calvinism - there are so many pages going Calvin was so perfect its almost nauseating

There are almost an equal number of pages going Arminianism is an evil Satan-spawned lie for which whomever believes in it will have their lives and souls stripped from them and tortured forever within the darkest pits of Hell!

Ive read your posts - and what passes for good teaching other places - and im still not impressed - you have to balance absolute justice, and absolute mercy and Calvinism fails to do that in my eyes at least.

 

You wouldn't think so but but somehow, a lot of people have managed to believe things about Calvinism that simply are not true.

I don't think that is necessarily true.

I would be curious as to what you mean by absolute justice and absolute mercy. I have not seen those words used in Scripture or theology. It seems to me that 'balance' means someone who believes like I do. I reject that definition. I believe that when it comes to God, "balance" does not exist. He is so far above his creation that his creation does not balance him out. We need to accept what he says and adjust our idea of "balance" to what he has said in his word.

 

8oD My intention in mentioning the man was that
this was the first time I even considered
questioning my old beliefs, not that the man
demonstrated the general beliefs of that church.

However, please note that I said I came from a
holiness-Arminian background!!

In those circles, no, they do not believe that they
sin They are shocked and disapppointed that I
believe we sin, and their denial is both strong and
angry.

I learned that they are able to deny that they sin
by having a very loose definition of sin. There is
an automatic problem with honesty there, also,
because their denial of sin is so strong that they
will manufacture ornate lies in order to cover up
their sins as well as those of other church
members.

I see such doctrine as inherently very dangerous,
because sin goes unforgiven, for it is both
adamantly and consistently denied. I had thought
that my parents were the only ones given to these
tendencies, but it is actually pervasive in the
whole organization.