To Non Cals here:Does Man Need Prevenient Grace or Not To Accept Jesus ?

[JesusFan]

Just seeing how many Non cals hold that its God applying "common grace" by Holy Spirit Externally and HS internally working thru Gospel

OR

HS through the Gospel ONLY ALL have it within them to accept /reject no need for any additional grace by God?

 

[Van]

What is prevenient grace? It might be defined differently by Calvinists, Arminians, and non-Cal/Arms.

I use the term to refer to a supposed grace whereby God enables, but does not compel people to receive and understand the gospel. The idea being that a natural man, i.e man of flesh (in a fallen state) is not able to respond appropriately to the gospel. In my opinion it is false doctrine.

Now revealing grace must come before a person could trust in that revelation, but I believe scripture teaches fallen men are able to understand that revealing grace, the milk of the gospel.

As far as the Calvinist take, the prevenient grace is irresistible, that too is false doctrine.

I Corinthians 2:14-3:3 teaches men of flesh, i.e. not babes in Christ or spiritually mature Christians, can understand the milk of the gospel, but not other spiritual things discerned only with the aid of our indwelt Spirit.

And I believe Matthew 23:13 teaches men can be entering heaven, thus able to enter, yet be turned aside, thus the enabling is resistible.

In summary, my view of "prevenient grace" is the revealing grace of God which is necessary in order to have something in mind to trust in. But it does not supernatually alter (enable) a man of flesh to respond, they are able to respond in their fallen state. Thus regeneration does not come before faith.

 

[Skandelon]

JesusFan,

There is NO biblical reason to believe that a person cannot understand and believe the gospel when it is presented.

Why do you think Jesus hid the gospel truth in parables from others "lest they repent and believe and be saved?" He HAD to hide it because it is powerful enough to save, but it was not time for them to be saved, otherwise they wouldn't have crucified Him.

Understand?

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan,

There is NO biblical reason to believe that a person cannot understand and believe the gospel when it is presented.

Why do you think Jesus hid the gospel truth in parables from others "lest they repent and believe and be saved?" He HAD to hide it because it is powerful enough to save, but it was not time for them to be saved, otherwise they wouldn't have crucified Him.

Understand?

there is power in the Gospel, to sdave and reddem, BUT that power if when the Holy Spirit comes upon someone, when He does His "role" and allows the sinners to see and believre, when He convicts them of their Sins, and when He is there to allow them means to repent and believe in Jesus...

NO Working of the HS externally upon peoples, no salvation...

its a BOTH here, HS and Word of God in unison bring a lost sinner to being saved by grace of God in Chrsit!

 

[Skandelon]

there is power in the Gospel, to sdave and reddem, BUT that power if when the Holy Spirit comes upon someone, when He does His "role" and allows the sinners to see and believre, when He convicts them of their Sins, and when He is there to allow them means to repent and believe in Jesus...

Then explain why Jesus said that he must hide the truth in parables lest they repent and be saved?

NO Working of the HS externally upon peoples, no salvation...

I think you may have the words internal and external mixed up. The gospel is an external working produced and carried by the HS. It affects those who hear it internally by giving them the knowledge they need to respond in faith, but not irresistibly so.

its a BOTH here, HS and Word of God in unison bring a lost sinner to being saved by grace of God in Chrsit!

I agree its both, but one works in and through the other...never apart. The gospel is the means of the so-called "prevenient" grace.

 

[JesusFan]

Then explain why Jesus said that he must hide the truth in parables lest they repent and be saved?

The truth of the parables were hidden from them, lest they turn and belive, by God...
he chose to "open minds" of the Apostles to their truths, as they to be part/in his Kingdom...

I think you may have the words internal and external mixed up. The gospel is an external working produced and carried by the HS. It affects those who hear it internally by giving them the knowledge they need to respond in faith, but not irresistibly so.

Thanks, you are correct in my mixing up terms!

I agree its both, but one works in and through the other...never apart. The gospel is the means of the so-called "prevenient" grace.

can God save anyone though apart from the Gospel message? If yes, would that be a sign of Him applying His grace to the individual?

 

[Skandelon]

can God save anyone though apart from the Gospel message? If yes, would that be a sign of Him applying His grace to the individual?

Well, prior to the gospel being sent there were those whose faith was credited to them as righteousness (i.e. Abraham and the list of those in Heb. 11), so I'm sure it's possible, but what we know is that God's clear plan for redemption is for people to hear the gospel appeal to be reconciled and to respond to that message. Those who perish do so because they refused to love the truth and so be saved, not because God refused to love and save them.

 

[Skandelon]

The truth of the parables were hidden from them, lest they turn and belive, by God...
he chose to "open minds" of the Apostles to their truths, as they to be part/in his Kingdom...

Right, and explain why it was necessary to use parables to hide this truth, if indeed they were born unable to understand and receive it?

 

[Van]

I am seeing claims but no scriptural support Jesusfan. As Skandelon pointed out, Jesus had to speak in parables to prevent people from understanding. Thus your assertion that people are unable to understand and respond without some supernatural enabling by the Holy Spirit is unbiblical.

How many scriptures are you willing to nullify to cling your unbiblical beliefs? Scripture says those who do not respond are unwilling to do so, not unable to do so. A Calvinist would claim they were unwilling because they were unable, thus rewriting scripture to fit their doctrine. Christian Minimalist Theology says accept scripture as written, thus they were unwilling is doctrine, they were unable is unbiblical.

Recall Romans chapter 11 where God intervenes and hardens hearts to preclude them from trusting in Christ. Thus yet another scripture teaching men of flesh are able to respond to the gospel message. Verse after verse, passage after passage.

 

[glfredrick]

I am seeing claims but no scriptural support Jesusfan. As Skandelon pointed out, Jesus had to speak in parables to prevent people from understanding. Thus your assertion that people are unable to understand and respond without some supernatural enabling by the Holy Spirit is unbiblical.

How many scriptures are you willing to nullify to cling your unbiblical beliefs? Scripture says those who do not respond are unwilling to do so, not unable to do so. A Calvinist would claim they were unwilling because they were unable, thus rewriting scripture to fit their doctrine. Christian Minimalist Theology says accept scripture as written, thus they were unwilling is doctrine, they were unable is unbiblical.

Recall Romans chapter 11 where God intervenes and hardens hearts to preclude them from trusting in Christ. Thus yet another scripture teaching men of flesh are able to respond to the gospel message. Verse after verse, passage after passage.

Way to miss the point of the OP... :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

The gospel is the means of the so-called "prevenient" grace.

BTW, if I remember correctly, there are many Calvinists who argue that the gospel is also the means of their so-called "irresistible grace." Meaning that God only irresistibly calls the elect through the means of the gospel. They are careful not to in any way separate the power from the gospel by suggesting that God does some 'prior effectual' inward working which somehow makes the gospel effective for them only. Obviously, I disagree with this view, but I thought it should be noted because it points to the biblical evidence that must be accounted for regarding the POWER OF THE GOSPEL.

 

[preacher4truth]

BTW, if I remember correctly, there are many Calvinists who argue that the gospel is also the means of their so-called "irresistible grace." Meaning that God only irresistibly calls the elect through the means of the gospel. They are careful not to in any way separate the power from the gospel by suggesting that God does some 'prior effectual' inward working which somehow makes the gospel effective for them only. Obviously, I disagree with this view, but I thought it should be noted because it points to the biblical evidence that must be accounted for regarding the POWER OF THE GOSPEL.

Should I take you to task over the word "many" for several pages of this thread as you've done to me in the past? :love2:

Can you clarify this? "They are careful not to in any way separate the power from the gospel by suggesting that God does some 'prior effectual' inward working which somehow makes the gospel effective for them only."

That needs elaboration, its a little murky.

Obviously we were set apart for Him before the foundation of the world. Could any elect be lost? Did he set us apart by the Spirit for salvation, and to obey Him? 1 Peter 1 teaches this, and I don't think it means at the very moment of salvation, as there is no reason, contextual or otherwise, to believe so. After all, it was Christ's Spirit working on Saul of Tarsus prior to his conversion.

Also, in Galatians 1:15, Paul, set apart to preach, from the womb, which was God's purpose for His life.

Many people look back on their salvation experience and prior and see God's workings in their lives. I personally believe this is what Paul partly sees and meant in Galatians 1:15.

I also believe the call of Abram, chapter 12 Genesis, and the promise he received in that chapter all to be "prevenient grace" and Gods promise to him would stand. We are all "children of promise," Gods promise, not children of "if you choose Me." It is all according to His purpose and calling. His elect simply obey.

God meant for all of it to happen and to save those whom He chose.

- Peace

 

[Aaron]

There is NO biblical reason to believe that a person cannot understand and believe the gospel when it is presented.

Why do you think Jesus hid the gospel truth in parables from others "lest they repent and believe and be saved?" He HAD to hide it because it is powerful enough to save, but it was not time for them to be saved, otherwise they wouldn't have crucified Him.

Understand?

Christ told us why. It wasn't to hide the Gospel from them. Their gross hearts, dull ears and closed eyes did that already. They did not have the capacity to render due benevolence to the things He would offer. Worse than that, they would tramble them under their feet, turn again and rend Him. He would not take the pearls of the mysteries of the Kingdom, and cast them before swine. They pervert Moses and the Prophets, therefore they don't even get to hear these things in a straightforward and natural manner. But whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables:

Not to blind and deafen them, but because they're blind and deaf.

because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

To say that a man has a natural capacity to respond to the Gospel is erroneous enough. To say that Christ was compelled to speak in parables because of man's natural capacity to respond to the Gospel is gross ignorance. . . and might I add, antithetical to all that Christ and His apostles taught us.

 

[Skandelon]

Christ told us why. It wasn't to hide the Gospel from them.

Right. And why did Christ NEED to hid the gospel from them? He tell us plainly: "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Their gross hearts, dull ears and closed eyes did that already.

Agreed. They rebelled freely which cause their hearts to GROW HARDENED and CALLOUSED. They weren't born that way.

Once self hardened in their rebellion despite God's long-suffering toward them as He patiently held out his hands to them and desired to gather them under his saving wings (Rm 10:21; Matt 23:37), they remained unwilling and rebellious. Only then do we see Christ purposefully and actively BLIND them from the clear truth so as to accomplish a greater redemptive purpose. By sealing them (hardening them) in their already rebellious condition he accomplishes redemption through the Passover, in the same way he hardened Pharaoh to accomplish the first passover.

Not to blind and deafen them, but because they're blind and deaf.

Then why does it say, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!???" Further, why does Paul anticipate that many of those hardened from Israel might be provoked to envy and saved, as he explains in Romans 11:14?

 

[JesusFan]

BTW, if I remember correctly, there are many Calvinists who argue that the gospel is also the means of their so-called "irresistible grace." Meaning that God only irresistibly calls the elect through the means of the gospel. They are careful not to in any way separate the power from the gospel by suggesting that God does some 'prior effectual' inward working which somehow makes the gospel effective for them only. Obviously, I disagree with this view, but I thought it should be noted because it points to the biblical evidence that must be accounted for regarding the POWER OF THE GOSPEL.

The Gospel has the "power" within it to save those whom have been elected by God to receive jesus as their Lord...

Its the chosen agent God uses in order to allow His chosen inChrist to be able to excercise faith in Christ and become saved...

Package deal here...

God elects unto salvation His own peoples, He applies Grace towards them by the HS and Gospel message, and they respond in faith

Its all the work of the Lord!

Our part is to respond by faith and receive Jesus...

 

[Skandelon]

The Gospel has the "power" within it to save those whom have been elected by God to receive jesus as their Lord...

Scripture never says the gospel's power is limited to a select few.

 

[preacher4truth]

Scripture never says the gospel's power is limited to a select few.

Actually, it does teach this.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

So its power is limited to a select group (I won't say few), i.e. His elect.

- Peace

 

[JesusFan]

Actually, it does teach this.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

So its power is limited to a select group (I won't say few), i.e. His elect.

- Peace

Bible also states clearly that God has permitted satan to 'blind" hearts and minds of those not getting saved , lest they should turn to Christ and get saved....

 

[glfredrick]

Skandelon, one of the 5 articles of the Arminian doctrine include this:

Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

Do you disavow an article of doctrine that is from your own specificed theology?

 

[JesusFan]

Skandelon, one of the 5 articles of the Arminian doctrine include this:



Do you disavow an article of doctrine that is from your own specificed theology?

Both cals/Arms would affirm than man , as result of the fall, needs to have God apply Grace , in order for any one to get saved right?

Basically disagree if it is general to ALL, or specifically applied towards some?

Both would disagree that the Gospel by itself can save anyone?