To Non Cals here:Does Man Need Prevenient Grace or Not To Accept Jesus ?

[Skandelon]

That's a completely different subject and you know it.

How is it a "different subject" when that is what we have been discussing? You are using the passages which speak of Paul being set apart from birth as proof that all saved people are likewise hand selected in the same manner and I'm asking you to show me where in the passage it makes that connection. That is the same subject we were discussing, so why do you think I changed subjects???

No, not really.

Almost every commentary, of both camps, agree that is the topic being addressed here, but sense your make such a compelling and well supported argument I guess I'll just leave it at that.

I never said that. Nice attempt though. An entirely differing topic.

So, you are not arguing that the way Paul was hand selected and called out is a pattern or example for the way in which all believers are saved? Then why are we having this discussion?

I am absolutely sure about that. Did they repent, or not? Yep, that's right, they repented for God's purposes.

"I guess God failed to change them...?" Uh. No. God didn't fail in any way at all so I disagree with that altogether. He did with them all He purposed to do. No failure whatsoever.

I was just referring to what became of Nineveh after Jonah left....(see Nahum).

 

[preacher4truth]

How is it a "different subject" when that is what we have been discussing? You are using the passages which speak of Paul being set apart from birth as proof that all saved people are likewise hand selected in the same manner and I'm asking you to show me where in the passage it makes that connection. That is the same subject we were discussing, so why do you think I changed subjects???

Almost every commentary, of both camps, agree that is the topic being addressed here, but sense your make such a compelling and well supported argument I guess I'll just leave it at that.


So, you are not arguing that the way Paul was hand selected and called out is a pattern or example for the way in which all believers are saved? Then why are we having this discussion?




I was just referring to what became of Nineveh after Jonah left....(see Nahum).

No, its a completely different topic. No need to go back and forth. This is how you roll, inserting a rabbit trail to force it to be the subject so you sound convincing after incapably arguing the true subject. We are having this discussion because I told you that Pauls example of dalvatgion grace is a pattern for all whoafter believe, you turned it into merely his office, (see my post to attempt to keep you on track from 1:29 yesterday after you started your new trail) and that basically we aren't apostles, i.e. that's not the subject at all. :wavey:


Your wording makes it sound as if God failed at Nineveh. I'll quote myself then you.

I said:

Certainly God changed the hearts of the Ninevites to repent through the Word.

To which you replied:

Are you sure about that? I guess God failed to change them the whole way then, huh?

Wow. Let's keep in mind those are your words above, not mine, OK?

Yes, I'm sure about that. No, sorry (not really) but there was no failure on Gods part to get them to repent. The extent of that repentance was to Gods purpose, objective and satisfaction, not yours.

I suppose I stand as an apologist for His actions in Nineveh now too. And will do so gladly.

- Peace

 

[TCGreek]

I've since abandoned Calvinism.

 

[quantumfaith]

I've since abandoned Calvinism.

TC, what do you mean by this? You once were a strict Calvinist, but now no longer? If that is so, why? What made you reach different conclusions?

 

[Winman]

I'm sorry, but you failed to supply the verse to which you were referring, and you failed to tell us why Satan would need to blind those Calvinist claim are born that way?

Plus, don't other texts say God is the one doing the blinding of Israel? Or do you think God uses Satan to blind them?

Skan, I believe God does allow certain obstinate and rebellious persons to be blinded by Satan.

1 Kngs 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Note in vs. 20 that the Lord did not ask anyone to lie to Ahab, it was the lying spirit's own idea in vs. 21-22. God simply allowed this spirit to persuade Ahab to go into battle and be killed as a judgment against his wickedness. God had already said Ahab would die in 1 Kngs 21:19.

So, God will allow Satan to blind certain rebellious persons as judgment against them.

 

[glfredrick]

Winman, are you saying that Calvinists fit the category of those God is intentionally blinding? If so, what is your justification?

Calvinist theology seeks the supreme sovereignty of God, not the highest levels of the will of man. Not sure that Calvinist theology works for the sin of "rebellion." Calling those, however, who seek God's presence, peace, righteousness, salvation, mercy, justice, gifts, etc., even if some point of doctrine disagrees with your own, IS the sin of rebellion. Rebellion against God's people and ultimately rebellion against God.

 

[preacher4truth]

Winman, are you saying that Calvinists fit the category of those God is intentionally blinding? If so, what is your justification?

That's exactly what I believe his intentions to be. I believe the passage to be his justification of that.

- Peace

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Winman, are you saying that Calvinists fit the category of those God is intentionally blinding? If so, what is your justification?

Calvinist theology seeks the supreme sovereignty of God, not the highest levels of the will of man. Not sure that Calvinist theology works for the sin of "rebellion." Calling those, however, who seek God's presence, peace, righteousness, salvation, mercy, justice, gifts, etc., even if some point of doctrine disagrees with your own, IS the sin of rebellion. Rebellion against God's people and ultimately rebellion against God.

Noooooo way! :love2: Not a loving brethren. I would be hard pressed to believe such utterances. I think that would further imply that the whole process of regeneration would be negated, for could be reborn without total sight?

 

[Skandelon]

No, its a completely different topic. No need to go back and forth. This is how you roll, inserting a rabbit trail to force it to be the subject so you sound convincing after incapably arguing the true subject.

So now any view about a particular passage that differs from your interpretation is dismissed as a "rabbit trail" and changing subjects?

I think our conversation has run its course. Have a great day.

 

[Skandelon]

Skan, I believe God does allow certain obstinate and rebellious persons to be blinded by Satan.

I agree, I'm just wondering why a Calvinist would believe this considering everyone is born totally blind from birth.

 

[Skandelon]

Guys, I can't speak for Winman, but the context of our discussion had nothing to do with Satan blinding Calvinists. We were just talking about God using Satan to blind people in general. I think you maybe reading something into his post that is not intended.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Guys, I can't speak for Winman, but the context of our discussion had nothing to do with Satan blinding Calvinists. We were just talking about God using Satan to blind people in general. I think you maybe reading something into his post that is not intended.

If you recall, I did not believe so. Further I suggested that God would not blind a believer. That would be an act of evil like saying God Lies....that would be blasphemous!

 

[quantumfaith]

So now any view about a particular passage that differs from your interpretation is dismissed as a "rabbit trail" and changing subjects?

I think our conversation has run its course. Have a great day.

So much more eloquent than myself.....and much more patient I might add.

 

[Winman]

Guys, I can't speak for Winman, but the context of our discussion had nothing to do with Satan blinding Calvinists. We were just talking about God using Satan to blind people in general. I think you maybe reading something into his post that is not intended.

I was quoting scripture about king Ahab, I never said anything about Calvinists.

The point I was trying to make was that it was the lying spirit's idea to persuade Ahab by putting lies into his prophets mouth. God did not tell this spirit to lie, God does not condone sin. God did allow this fallen angel to persuade Ahab to go up to battle where he would be killed as God had said in the chapter before.

And it was the same with Job. God did not suggest to Satan that he afflict Job, it was Satan who challenged God that Job only loved God because God had put a hedge around Job. God allowed Satan to afflict Job, but the idea of afflicting Job originated with Satan, not God.

 

[Skandelon]

I was quoting scripture about king Ahab, I never said anything about Calvinists.

The point I was trying to make was that it was the lying spirit's idea to persuade Ahab by putting lies into his prophets mouth. God did not tell this spirit to lie, God does not condone sin. God did allow this fallen angel to persuade Ahab to go up to battle where he would be killed as God had said in the chapter before.

And it was the same with Job. God did not suggest to Satan that he afflict Job, it was Satan who challenged God that Job only loved God because God had put a hedge around Job. God allowed Satan to afflict Job, but the idea of afflicting Job originated with Satan, not God.

That is the way I took it. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

That is the way I took it. Thanks for clearing that up. :thumbs:

Hey, I think it is obvious to everyone I do not agree with Calvinism. But I have no ill will against anyone on this board, I simply believe they are in error. Yes, I post many controversial scriptures, because I believe there are many scriptures that refute what has become orthodox belief. I do not for one second believe I have all the answers, but I am always trying to learn.

As far as accusing each other, we should not do that, that is the very mark of the devil.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Accusing Christians (and God) of evil is what Satan does. He accused God of telling a lie to Eve, and that God was holding out on man. He accused Job of only loving God because God had put a hedge around him, and accused God of bribing Job to love him by putting a hedge around him.

Accusing the brethren is what Satan does, not what Christians should do.

 

[glfredrick]

Hey, I think it is obvious to everyone I do not agree with Calvinism. But I have no ill will against anyone on this board, I simply believe they are in error. Yes, I post many controversial scriptures, because I believe there are many scriptures that refute what has become orthodox belief. I do not for one second believe I have all the answers, but I am always trying to learn.

As far as accusing each other, we should not do that, that is the very mark of the devil.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Accusing Christians (and God) of evil is what Satan does. He accused God of telling a lie to Eve, and that God was holding out on man. He accused Job of only loving God because God had put a hedge around him, and accused God of bribing Job to love him by putting a hedge around him.

Accusing the brethren is what Satan does, not what Christians should do.

I may quote you on that in later posts... :thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

Hey, I think it is obvious to everyone I do not agree with Calvinism. But I have no ill will against anyone on this board, I simply believe they are in error. Yes, I post many controversial scriptures, because I believe there are many scriptures that refute what has become orthodox belief. I do not for one second believe I have all the answers, but I am always trying to learn.

As far as accusing each other, we should not do that, that is the very mark of the devil.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: ]for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Accusing Christians (and God) of evil is what Satan does. He accused God of telling a lie to Eve, and that God was holding out on man. He accused Job of only loving God because God had put a hedge around him, and accused God of bribing Job to love him by putting a hedge around him.

Accusing the brethren is what Satan does, not what Christians should do.

Thank you Winman, this is precisely the attitude everyone should at least express as opposed to dogmatic pronouncements of certainties.

 

[Winman]

I may quote you on that in later posts... :thumbs:

That's fine. I realize I lose my cool at times, some can be very frustrating. But I don't dislike or hate anyone here whatsoever.

 

[TCGreek]

TC, what do you mean by this? You once were a strict Calvinist, but now no longer? If that is so, why? What made you reach different conclusions?

I rather err on the side of non-Calvinism these days.