To suffer or die? That is the question!

[righteousdude2]

Rather than "fate," "providence" is the more usual term among believers.

Yes that is a good term, also. Thanks!

 

[heisrisen]

I definitely wouldn't take my own life. No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him so I couldn't muster it up to do it anyway because the Holy Spirit within me. God takes us when it's our time. He is the only one who has the authority to take life.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I was recently introduced to a community of people with chronic illnesses, sometimes incurable illnesses or at least ones that have the potential to be permanent and lifelong, and I have to say I have a newfound respect for those who suffer in that way. Here I am with my own chronic (but remittent) pain issue, and one especially bad day will make me think "if every day were like this I would not want to live". (Fortunately it doesn't get that bad very often.) These people continue living despite every or most days being hell, they say "I'm not going to let my illness control my life", and I have so much respect for that.

 

[annsni]

I do not believe in "death with dignity" a.k.a. assisted suicide.

I do understand those who have chosen to not have treatment based on the diagnosis. My FIL did this. At Thanksgiving, he wasn't feeling well and thought he had bronchitis. The doctor thought maybe pneumonia and put him on antibiotics and inhalers but after 3 days it wasn't getting better so he sent him for x-rays. Further testing after the x-rays confirmed what the doctor saw on the x-rays - cancer. My FIL had mesothelioma which is quite fatal. My FIL was 89 years old and decided that he didn't want to go to all kinds of treatments just to die anyway. His only hope was that he wouldn't die struggling to breathe. Our hope was that he would die without struggling to breathe and with a lot of pain. He died 9 weeks later having had only one Percoset hours before he died but no more than Motrin before that. His death was peaceful and without discomfort.

My mother died of breast cancer and fought it as best she felt she could. She went the natural route rather than chemo and radiation and that was her choice but I honestly think it killed her. She didn't want the standard treatments but she still fought hard. She ended up having a very rough end to her life and she died at just 63 years old, 6 months after completing a 1/2 marathon. She did suffer at the end but our time together was sweet and I know she didn't want to leave any sooner than she had to. She wanted to spend time with the family.

We've been to many death beds and really, there is something sweet about the last days of a person's life if their pain is well managed. Being able to visit, be loved, tell stories and pray is precious. My mom died with people standing around her praying. I held the hand of a man who died right after we were sharing stories of his younger days and he smiled as we laughed about some of his antics! I don't believe that we should end life sooner actively but if a person is dying, I don't see a problem with allowing them to die peacefully as the disease takes hold.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Speaking on my views here, well, I definitely do believe in holding onto life as long as possible. And yet there are times I will support the decision to let death come.
My dad had it said that if he ever had to live on a breathing machine he'd rather they drop life support. It was about three years ago we finally had to do that. He was in bad shape after having been bedridden for an entire decade--our bodies aren't meant to be almost totally immobile. I forget all that was going on, some heart stuff, he had a bed sore so bad his intestines were peeking through, he was on a breathing machine, some other stuff, and recovery would be long, hard, and uncertain. The doctors recommended pulling life support. Which isn't suicide, I suppose, it's just letting the body die on it's own.
I had always believed he would be completely healed one day, but I guess that's not always in God's plan.

 

[MNJacob]

This is a question that I struggle with quite a bit, based on observations of the final days of both of my parents. I do believe that both of them were believers, but when faced with the tough end of life decisions, elected home hospice for their final days. But both refused food and drink and were given palliative dosages of morphine. To me this in essence was a conscious decision to end their lives. And since the palliative morphine was available, in my own opinion was in essence an assisted suicide.

I'm still dealing with that.

 

[agedman]

This is a question that I struggle with quite a bit, based on observations of the final days of both of my parents. I do believe that both of them were believers, but when faced with the tough end of life decisions, elected home hospice for their final days. But both refused food and drink and were given palliative dosages of morphine. To me this in essence was a conscious decision to end their lives. And since the palliative morphine was available, in my own opinion was in essence an assisted suicide.

I'm still dealing with that.

I understand your heart in this.

The Scriptures do give permission for "medicinal help" as I would term it for those who "have no hope." Now some would suggest that is for those who are unbelievers with no hope in Christ, but I don't see any such qualifiers in the passage.

My Bride and my parents are long past, and we still miss them. The sting is not as it once was, but the lost fellowship brings a longing for home going.

It is not HOW one dies, it is what happens after that really matters.

 

[evenifigoalone]

@MNjaob I'm not sure if it was recent, but I am sorry for your loss. If your parents were believers they are in heaven.

The Scriptures do give permission for "medicinal help" as I would term it for those who "have no hope." Now some would suggest that is for those who are unbelievers with no hope in Christ, but I don't see any such qualifiers in the passage.

Why would scripture say to allow an unbeliever to die and go from suffering in this life immediately to the receiving of eternal punishment? Or am I misunderstanding this?

 

[agedman]

So you think killing people is okay? I hope I am misunderstanding.

And I find offensive your intimation that standing against euthanasia is hypocrisy.

P. S. I note from your "Information" page that you are Roman Catholic. Perhaps you are postling here ignorantly, but this section of the BB is for Baptists only.

I assume you think "euthanasia" is "killing people."

For discussion sake, let me take the other side of the argument.

Perhaps, IF it was not according to government authority.

The same principle that applies to the death penalty for crimes against humanity should apply. The one who pushes the button that runs the mechanism to inject the dosage for the criminal to die, is not a murder because they are acting according to the societies desires and law. Should one by the same society and law have the right to be "euthanized" then it is by that society and laws not murder.

What IS murder is that taking of life which is outside the authority of the societal structures.

Hence, the taking of life in abortion is also not murder.

 

[agedman]

@MNjaob I'm not sure if it was recent, but I am sorry for your loss. If your parents were believers they are in heaven.


Why would scripture say to allow an unbeliever to die and go from suffering in this life immediately to the receiving of eternal punishment? Or am I misunderstanding this?

Most excellent question!

The short answer is found in John 3. The unbeliever is "condemned already." Them taking their own life (if that can be done - which it cannot) is merely the manifestation of the last condemned sinfulness. That the person doesn't believe doesn't make the after this life any less a reality. They are already condemned.

However, the principle that I find in Scriptures is that no one has the ability to die unless it is the appointed time. The manner of death is not the issue, but the appointment cannot be avoided.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I assume you think "euthanasia" is "killing people."

For discussion sake, let me take the other side of the argument.

Perhaps, IF it was not according to government authority.

The same principle that applies to the death penalty for crimes against humanity should apply. The one who pushes the button that runs the mechanism to inject the dosage for the criminal to die, is not a murder because they are acting according to the societies desires and law. Should one by the same society and law have the right to be "euthanized" then it is by that society and laws not murder.

What IS murder is that taking of life which is outside the authority of the societal structures.

Hence, the taking of life in abortion is also not murder.

Though, if something is not murder because society has not declared it so, that would also suggest that the holocaust was not really murder because Hitler created a society that deemed it okay. Or that the only reason it was murder was because the rest of the world believed it was and declared it so at the Nuremberg trials.
I understand you're taking a theoretical position, but would have to say that morality exists outside of human subjectivity. Though, that is an assertion I would need to provide evidence for, since it could be argued that morality exists because of human subjectivity.

 

[agedman]

Though, if something is not murder because society has not declared it so, that would also suggest that the holocaust was not really murder because Hitler created a society that deemed it okay. Or that the only reason it was murder was because the rest of the world believed it was and declared it so at the Nuremberg trials.
I understand you're taking a theoretical position, but would have to say that morality exists outside of human subjectivity. Though, that is an assertion I would need to provide evidence for, since it could be argued that morality exists because of human subjectivity.

There is no diminishing the Holocaust and my Jewish friends are often reminded how there are growing numbers of deniers of the truth.

The question of moral culpability must contend over when one society judges the laws of another society and finds that crimes against humanity offended at some level of sensibility. What level or when the sensibility is violated is more often held in "what is best for me and mine, and what I will tolerate for my own agenda." As well documented, the perpetrators of the "holocaust" were often secreted away and used by various governments after WWII. Further, one could condemn the "holocaust" of the OT or the "holocausts" judgments of God upon this world during the wrath of the Tribulation (if one takes the more literal reading of Scriptures). Both of these examples were/are authorized.

Scriptures present that murder is the taking of life that is not authorized by the law of God and the society.

 

[annsni]

This is a question that I struggle with quite a bit, based on observations of the final days of both of my parents. I do believe that both of them were believers, but when faced with the tough end of life decisions, elected home hospice for their final days. But both refused food and drink and were given palliative dosages of morphine. To me this in essence was a conscious decision to end their lives. And since the palliative morphine was available, in my own opinion was in essence an assisted suicide.

I'm still dealing with that.

It was not at all an assisted suicide. Palliative morphine will help to keep the patient comfortable but will not kill them. Refusing food and drink is often typical at the end of life because the body literally cannot handle either one. It is part of the dying process. The body shuts down and it cannot process food or liquids and can actually cause harm to the patient.

 

[MB]

I am not sure if this subject has ever been discussed on the forum, but even if it had, I'd still like to approach it and hear your responses, especially from both a Biblical and ethical or moral view.

Let's say you were dying of cancer, or been diagnosed with alzheimers. You know there is no cure. And you know that each day brings more pain and emotional angst. If you were given the choice to humanely end the suffering and the unknown to get to heaven on your time plan and not fate, would you elect to end your life in order to end further pain, indignity and emotional duress?

Furthermore, if you could end in accordance to your plans and not those of life where the body slowly dies as it fights to remain alive, something innate to the human body, would you think God would see that as a sin?

I do appreciate your views on this often emotionally charged subject ..... shalom!

I know what suffering is. It's a miserable existence. A couple of summers ago I was put in the hospital because I had an ulcer. This was a side effect from my RA medications. They took me off all my medications. three days later every joint in my body was inflamed. I couldn't get out of bed or even move because it was so painful. I prayed about it to no avail. I wanted to die. I was like that for 6 weeks while my ulcer was healing. RA won't kill you. Because this disease is a result of an over active immune system. It keeps most other diseases at bay. I haven't had the flu or even a cold in more than 30 years
After the doctors were sure my ulcer was healed they had me take Prilosec an hour before I could take my medication again and still do to keep me from getting another ulcer.
I wanted to die and I seriously considered suicide, but I'm glad I didn't. There are so many who depend on me. We all have a purpose and I haven't finished my purpose yet. As long as there is life there is hope. When death comes hope disappears. Trust me my friend God will take you when He is ready. Besides suicide is murder. I would try and think about it like this. When God has no more use for you here. He will take you home.
May God bless you My friend.
MB

 

[MB]

Would a soldier volunteering for a mission in which there was a greater chance of not returning be considered committing suicide for we commonly use the term "suicide mission" when referring to that call to duty?

This would fall under dying for a friend.

Is there a statement of Scripture that presents an anti suicide view?

Thy shall not kill.

Or is it hold over thinking imposed by a papist thinking?

Are not all humankind "terminal?"

Can one have "sorrow unto death?" (sorrow to be taken as any affliction of body or mind for this thought, only)

Yes to the last three.
I believe there are consequences for suicide. What they are for a Christian I do not know.
MB

 

[HankD]

How about this?

The doctor says you have terminal cancer.

Would a total fast - just stop eating, go into a coma and die, would that be suicide?

HankD

 

[evenifigoalone]

I know what suffering is. It's a miserable existence. A couple of summers ago I was put in the hospital because I had an ulcer. This was a side effect from my RA medications. They took me off all my medications. three days later every joint in my body was inflamed. I couldn't get out of bed or even move because it was so painful. I prayed about it to no avail. I wanted to die. I was like that for 6 weeks while my ulcer was healing. RA won't kill you. Because this disease is a result of an over active immune system. It keeps most other diseases at bay. I haven't had the flu or even a cold in more than 30 years
After the doctors were sure my ulcer was healed they had me take Prilosec an hour before I could take my medication again and still do to keep me from getting another ulcer.
I wanted to die and I seriously considered suicide, but I'm glad I didn't. There are so many who depend on me. We all have a purpose and I haven't finished my purpose yet. As long as there is life there is hope. When death comes hope disappears. Trust me my friend God will take you when He is ready. Besides suicide is murder. I would try and think about it like this. When God has no more use for you here. He will take you home.
May God bless you My friend.
MB

I've never been in quite that much physical pain, but emotionally I have. Depression isn't nice to you. I wanted to die so badly. I'm glad I didn't give into that desire.

 

[MB]

I've never been in quite that much physical pain, but emotionally I have. Depression isn't nice to you. I wanted to die so badly. I'm glad I didn't give into that desire.

I'm glad you didn't too
MB

 

[StFrancis]

One can only end their life if they don't believe that God can heal them. God can perform miracles if we believe in Him. It is like getting involved in an accident, all people die except one or two people. It means that God knows when you are supposed to die, you should not kill yourself.

 

[MNJacob]

It was not at all an assisted suicide. Palliative morphine will help to keep the patient comfortable but will not kill them. Refusing food and drink is often typical at the end of life because the body literally cannot handle either one. It is part of the dying process. The body shuts down and it cannot process food or liquids and can actually cause harm to the patient.

Thanks Ann,

I struggle with how much of the initial refusal of food and water was a cognitive decision. Once the morphine started there really wasn't much cognitive after that. I know that my mother was ready to go home. With my dad I believe it was more of wanting to see my mom.