To the blasted flag-wavers at my church...

Where in the Bible is using or waving banners a part of worship? I only see it used in war in the OT.

 

It is not. Some churches get carried away with their geographic location on the planet. The Kingdom of God covers the planet however. Churches would do well to show they are receptive to all peoples of all countries, whether they are located here or not. Nationalistic fevor is more of a misleading spirit than anything else. I remember the sunday after the U.S. invaded Iraq, me and my wife walked in to church to see a giant U.S. flag stretched across the stage much like the one in the movie, "Patton". It was a strange feeling that sunday as some folks came down the aisle waving their flags and as soon as the congregation was cognizant of the carried flags presence the entire congregation jumped to it's feet in a kind of sudden jerked response that had never been given to God's business, whether prayer or song, and when prayer did come up it was only for Americans or the soldiers without mention of innocent Iraqi's or even it's women & children who would be likely killed by bombing.Is the nation really first in our lives or is God? All I got to say is; we better get it right and it better show. Playing Ray Boltz's "Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb" now and then through the church sound system would probably help keep these things in perspective.

 

Sonjeo, thanks for your post, but the flags and banners being discussed here are not nationalistic flags, as I understand it.

 

No war yet - commanded by the Lord - each tribe of Israel had a standard (banner/flag) with an ensign representing each particular tribe:

Num.1
[52] And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.

Num.2
[2] Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
[3] And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
[10] On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.
[17] Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.
[18] On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
[25] The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
[31] All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards.
[34] And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.

 

Okay, thanks, Lady Eagle, but this does not show using banners in worship. It seems these banners and standards in what you cited were used for identification and organization.

 

Psalm 20
[5] We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions.

Psalm 60
[4] Thou hast given a banner to them that fear thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah.

Song of Solomon 2
[4] He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.

 

I looked up all these before I posted. Song of Solomon is poetic metaphor - does not have to do with waving banners for worship.

From the contexts of Ps. 20 and 60, they seem to have to do with victory in battle, and are not being used indoors, especially Ps. 60. It also seems the Ps. 60 reference may be metaphor. There is just not enough there to say there is a basis for waving banners around in worship.

 

Marcia, we will just have to agree to disagree. No where in the OT does it mention anything about playing the piano or organ in worship, either. I guess technically speaking, one could say the piano is strings and organ is reed/horn.

Then there are the passion plays some large churches have going on around Easter time. Some people have probably complained about live animals being in the sanctuary.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. I guess if I objected to banner waving in church, though, I'd find another church. But that's just me.

 

But there are references to singing in worship in both the OT and NT.

Animals are not usually in worship services; it's just at Christmas and only in a few places, if any.

I do not think it is wrong to have banner waving in church, I just don't see the biblical basis for it. If a church wants to do it tastefully and members don't object, that seems fine. I was just wondering where it came from and when I looked in the Bible, could not really find a basis for it. For me, it would be distracting. I'm not in a chruch that does this.

 

Maybe the palm branches being waved?

 

Well, maybe, but that was not really a worship service, and a lot of those people are the ones who turned against Jesus and voted for Barabbas to be set free instead. People are fickle.

I think outward shows of worship should be spontaneous and not planned or expected. I actually feel most worshipful when I am being quiet and pondering God's word in church or singing a moving hymn.

I think the idea of what worship is has become narrowed down to singing styles or how much emotion we are showing or how much we are moving, and I don't think that is necessarily worship at all. I think true worship comes from the inside and shows itself in different ways outwardly. Some may sing or clap, some may cry, some may be quiet at the majesty of God, some may want to lift their hands. I think they are all worship if they are sincere.

 

That's a good one!!!

 

This would definitely distract my attention! Maybe there's a section in the back of the church better suited?

PJ

 

So you're saying that it's okay to wave flags during worship as long as it is sincere and spontaneous.

 

And you're also saying that the order of services shouldn't include so many standing or sitting hymns or a planned offeratory during the worship service. Nothing should be planned or expected, but everything should be spontaneous.

 

You either deliberately or for some reason known only to you misrepresenting my post. I did not say I put a stop to anything. All I said was that I asked the pastor the Biblical basis for use of banners in the worship service. They were initially used at the instigation of the choir director, or worship director, as they are now called. I assume the pastor could find no Biblical basis since the banners were no longer used.

Is there any more justification for using banners in the church than there is for having statues of various and sundry so-called "saints"?

By the way, in my "humble opinion" Jeffrey H., music programs are responsible for a lot of "stuff" being brought into the worship service that doesn't belong there. Read a little of the history of Israel, Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles and you will see that polluting the worship of God was one of the persistent sins of Israel.

 

And you're also saying that the order of services shouldn't include so many standing or sitting hymns or a planned offeratory during the worship service. Nothing should be planned or expected, but everything should be spontaneous. </font>[/QUOTE]No, I'm not saying nothing should be planned. I think things should be done in a orderly way, and have to be done that way or chaos reigns. I guess I am talking about what the thread is related to -- shows of outward worship, which most posters here are relating to singing, flags, dancing, clapping hands, etc. Probably a lot of this would happen when music is being played.

I think if some feel moved to wave banners and it's something the church likes and recognizes as a way to express worship, fine. Personally, it would distract me. So I am not in such a church. In fact, before this thread started, I did not realize this was commonly done.

 

Hi Marcia. I had never heard of it before this thread either. None of the baptist churches in our association do this, so I doubt it's considered common where we live.

PJ

 

LOL Matt!

PJ