To Those Who Hate Calvinism: What is Your BIG problem With it?

[DrJamesAch]

Preacher4Ruth:

I've given you solid Scriptural evidence. You say Calvinists cannot know in essence whether they are elect or not. I showed Biblical evidence we in fact can. I also showed elect and saved to be synonymous terminologies, which is obviously something you cannot come to grips with. You see them as two differing states when they are one and the same as the Apostles used this term for those saved calling them elect.

You did the exact same thing AGAIN. You gave me scriptural evidence of how Paul and his believers knew THEY were saved but did not and still have not answered the question as to how you know YOU are ELECT.

And elect and saved are not synonymous. Matthew 22:16 bears that out. Judas was chosen but was not saved Israel was God's elect (Isaiah 45:4) but willingly rejected Christ. Matthew 23:37. They are only one and the same TO YOU because you begin your interpretation of scripture with the presupposition of another man's teachings, instead of reading the Bible for what it actually says.

So I'll make the question simple, how do YOU KNOW that you are elect. Not how you CAN know, but how do you know.

Your Psalms absurdity is moot and you know it doesn't exist, thus you continue to use it to bolster your straw man accusation. Stick to the text given without your absurdities in Psalms &c.

There never was a "Psalms" argument. It was an idiomatic example of where a Calvinist would find their names because a Calvinist can't prove they are elect because by your own admissions, "Gods election is only within His will and mind" (to paraphrase) and thus His election ACCORDING TO CALVINISM can not be knowable. If God elects who He will, than how can you possibly know if you are elect?

 

[DrJamesAch]

Calvinism says a man must be made spiritually alive before he has the ability to believe the gospel, the word of God says a man must believe the gospel before he can have spiritual life (John 20:31).

Calvinism teaches that a man is chosen outside of Christ before the foundation of the world and then given to Christ. The scriptures teach that a man is chosen IN CHRIST only (Eph 1:4, 2 Thes 2:13) in time (Rom 16:7). Of course, God in his foreknowledge knows who will believe in time, and these are those who were given to Jesus. But they were chosen only IN Christ.

Calvinism teaches all men are born dead in sin, the scriptures teach that God has made all men upright, but they have sought many inventions (Ecc 7:29). Paul said he was ALIVE without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. When the prodigal son repented, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN, showing he was not born dead in sin as Calvinism and Augustine falsely taught.

Ephesians 2:1 does show that we were dead in sin, but the Calvinist takes it beyond that and describes this passage as proving that man is so totally depraved that his deadness prevents him from hearing or responding to God. They interpret dead the same way the Jehovah's Witnesses do where death means annihilation instead of separation. When Adam was dead in sin after eating the fruit, he was still able to not only hear the voice of God, but also respond to Him in Genesis 3.

I agree with everything else you said.

 

[Winman]

Preacher4Ruth:

You did the exact same thing AGAIN. You gave me scriptural evidence of how Paul and his believers knew THEY were saved but did not and still have not answered the question as to how you know YOU are ELECT.

And elect and saved are not synonymous. Matthew 22:16 bears that out. Judas was chosen but was not saved Israel was God's elect (Isaiah 45:4) but willingly rejected Christ. Matthew 23:37. They are only one and the same TO YOU because you begin your interpretation of scripture with the presupposition of another man's teachings, instead of reading the Bible for what it actually says.

So I'll make the question simple, how do YOU KNOW that you are elect. Not how you CAN know, but how do you know.


There never was a "Psalms" argument. It was an idiomatic example of where a Calvinist would find their names because a Calvinist can't prove they are elect because by your own admissions, "Gods election is only within His will and mind" (to paraphrase) and thus His election ACCORDING TO CALVINISM can not be knowable. If God elects who He will, than how can you possibly know if you are elect?

You are correct, most Calvinists have no possible way to know they are elect. I say most, because some do believe that Jesus died for all men, but most believe in Limited Atonement, therefore they have no way of knowing if Jesus died for them personally. For all they know they could be self deceived. In fact, Calvin taught that God himself deceives men with an "Evanescent Grace" that can be so real that a person could sincerely believe themselves saved, and yet fall away and perish.

If you cannot know that Jesus personally died for you, then you cannot possibly know you are one of the elect. Just because you believe you are elect doesn't make it so.

 

[Yeshua1]

1) Yeshua1 claims he does not know that the many were made sinners. Calvinist Obfuscation

2) Yeshua1 claims he does not know every intention of the thought of our heart of stone is wicked. Calvinist Obfuscation

3) Yeshua1 claims a person's knowledge of the gospel is what saves him or her. Utterly false! God sets us apart in Christ based on crediting our faith and devotion to Christ as righteousness

4) Yeshua1 claims Christ did not become the propitiation for the whole world. Utterly false. 1 John 2:2.

5) Yeshua1 claims God did not reserve for Himself 7000 who have not bowed a knee to Baal. God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness in every generation.

6) Yeshua1 claims God has not told us in His Word how He saves people, i.e. through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and faith in the truth.

7) Yeshua1 claims others besides those whose faith is credited as righteousness, are saved. Utter nonsense! No one comes to the Father except through the Son, no one.

All these basic truths are clearly and plainly taught in scripture, thus Calvinism claims scripture is to no effect.

How did the Fall of Adam affect us?
Can a sinner freely decide to accept jesus?
God states that the death of his own son was propiation for all, paid the debt for all, yet God cannot save all?

 

[saturneptune]

Your reasoning is suspect. You say you have no respect whatsoever for Dr. White. Then,when asked spifiically why...WELL...ER...UM.. YOU CAN'T SAY EXACTLY WHY.

Reverend Mitchell is a spirit filled Christian. Although he at times disagrees with Yeshua1 and Icon, they are all three theologically sound with minor differences. They all have a good grasp of the Gospel. The only reason that you would say "your reasoning is suspect" is that you do not have a good grasp of the Gospel. Your purpose here is not to edify, further understanding, shed light, or exchange ideas, but to destroy.

Are you concerned about lost souls and spreading the Good News? No, you are worried about how close to sainthood John Calvin is and which version of Scripture is closest to your warped opinion.

Although I disagree with Van, Winman, and DrJames, they are speaking from a pure heart, and what they believe. They are not here to belittle others like you. Heir of Salvation has got you pegged.

The sad fact is, the debate between sovereignty and free will in reality makes no difference to you. Telling others about Jesus makes no difference to you. What makes a difference to you is contributing nothing to a discussion except dissention and a trail of destruction.

Anyone who questions Reverend Mitchell's motives has no idea what they are talking about. Here is a man who has a heart for the down trodden of society and lives it, as does Earth, Wind and Fire. Praise the Lord we have people with a love for others like this. Never in my life have I seen the dedication of a man like Icon, who,without years of formal education, spends every waking moment studying the Holy Scripture, and you know what, gives the best advice on this board for every day living.

I have disagreed with everyone of these men, and have treated them a lot worse than they ever did me. They forgave me as have others.

The bottom line is, everytime you post, the points in favor of God's sovereignty become weaker. There is not one shred of evidence of the nine fruits of the Spirit in your posts. You certainly show no inclination to obey the Second Great Commandment. Call me all the names you want, but lay off the others. There are no less than twenty posters you have demeaned in two threads. Like I said, the best advice to you is put yourself on ignore.

 

[Winman]

How did the Fall of Adam affect us?

Adam introduced sin into the world, which brought death. Those who sin like Adam shall die like Adam.

Can a sinner freely decide to accept jesus?

Any sinner who hears the gospel clearly explained to him can decide whether to believe it or not.

God states that the death of his own son was propiation for all, paid the debt for all, yet God cannot save all?

No, God said you must BELIEVE to be saved. Yes, Jesus died for you, but unless you believe, the gospel will not profit you.

 

[Rippon]

The only reason that you would say "your reasoning is suspect" is that you do not have a good grasp of the Gospel.

You've lost your way. You are confused or really longing for contention.

RM said that he has no respect for Dr. James White whatsoever. I have tried to find out why he feels that way. But he is reluctant to say why. How you can make it into something so radically different is a wonder to behold.

Are you concerned about lost souls and spreading the Good News? No,

You do not know me at all. Don't make those kind of pronouncements..they are not edifying,nor are they true.

They are not here to belittle others like you.

And this post of yours addressed to me is not belittling? Come on! You specialize in demeaning remarks. Take a good look at your track record. Why is it that many of your posts have been censored? Wake up and smell the coffee. You are the last person to lecture me along those lines.

The sad fact is, the debate between sovereignty and free will in reality makes no difference to you. Telling others about Jesus makes no difference to you.

Why you insist on this line of unedifying ruminations is that you are in sin.

Anyone who questions Reverend Mitchell's motives has no idea what they are talking about.

Again,you are not paying attention or are deliberately going out of your way to be rude. I opt for the latter.

The bottom line is, everytime you post,...

Yak,yak yak. And on and on you go spouting of in your sin.

There are no less than twenty posters you have demeaned in two threads.

Tell me who. You are not credible.

Now that you have sidetracked this thread...how about returning to the subject. To those who hate Calvinism;What is your BIG problem with it?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Do any of you guys ever get tired of debating the same topic?

 

[Rippon]

S/N doesn't even know the topic of a given thread. Since I post in a given forum he feels it is his duty to "bless me out" as best as he can. The topic? He doesn't have a clue.

 

[Tom Bryant]

S/N doesn't even know the topic of a given thread. Since I post in a given forum he feels it is his duty to "bless me out" as best as he can. The topic? He doesn't have a clue.

I'll take that as a "NO".

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmitchell

Objective how?

Objective in seeing that he has come on the thread insulting calvinists, so when he gets answered you are surprised

As in have not made up my mind yet? Uh no I am not.

If you have of have not made up your mind is not my concern.

My lack of objectivity may only be on your part not mine. If you are referring to James White no I will not listen to him.

You can not listen to him if you do not want to.he answers your blog posters ideas....

I have no respect for him whatsoever.

I respect him a great deal. To each his own.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why? Because he so cogently defends the faith once delivered on a consistent basis? Or are you an Ergun Caner fan?

Many dislike Dr.White because he destroys their false theological idols.

 

[Iconoclast]

HeirofSalvation

Icon....You will IGNORE Scripture and define it as it suits you...and I demonstrate where and how you do it here:

HERE....Right HERE.....You simply ignored I Corinthians 15 by AGAIN re-defining what I Corinthians 15 was about!!

I did not ignore it. I commented on it.

Step 1: You used I Corinthians 15 to re-define Romans chapter 5....
Step 2: I called you on your bad exegesis of I Corinthians 15
Step 3: You respond by simply re-defining I Corinthians 15 BACK to Romans 5!!!!

That is the DEFINITION of a circular Argument.....

Hos is upset, because he fails to grasp that Paul guided by the Holy Spirit is actually able to speak about more than one theme in 1 cor 15.

Hos evidently does not like federal headship, or the Image -bearer doctrine in Romans 5, or here In 1 cor 15.....

Hos must not see that Paul also speaks of the Kingdom being delieverd up to the Father.

Hos cannot link redemptive historical ideas together ....even when it is the same apostle writing.

HINT:
I Corinthians doesn't "RELATE" back to Romans 5...............that's your OWN invention.
They are not talking about the same topic.

because justification is featured in Romans 5, and resurrection in 1 cor 15, does not mean that they do not intersect .
at the last day...resurrection day.....federal headship and the Image-bearer doctrine will be found to be the utmost importance

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

HINT: Those conformed to the Image of the Son...are Christs at His coming.That is why it is called a resurrection unto life:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

BTW: Your arrogant and presumptuous use of :laugh: is getting quite tiresome....It is a DEMONIC Spirit which takes sick pleasure in insulting and de-grading the posts and arguments of your brethren...

So ....let me get this straight. because you do not understand federal headship and the Image-bearer doctrine......when I use the laugh emoticon...it does not mean a laugh......but rather an evidence of a demonic spirit???? others use it and it means a laugh, if I use it it is a sign of a demon spirit...ok....that is quite an insight right there:thumbs:

Whatever Spirit which is within you which causes you to: :laugh: at the rejoinders of your supposed brethren.......... I want absolutely NO part of.

You cannot understand romans 5, or 15 ...so the personal attack comes, so you do not have to speak about the scripture...except for this useless post??

Yes.....i see what it is.

Your Nastiness toward "DR James" is enough from you.

There was no nastiness toward him or anyone else.he has failed to respond to 2 pet 1...throughout the thread, avoiding the scriptural truth.

Show where I was "nasty". I think you sort of have a corner on that picking on peoples words, and throwing out your obscure phrases....

...You may treat me as you wish....but your vicious cruelty towards Dr. James says all I need to know about whatever Spirit Calvinism has worked in your life.

Vicious cruelty, lol.....Hey listen C.O......you are not in your POD, browbeating the clientele......but maybe you have learned the art of diversion as you attempt to practice here......bless your heart:flower:

 

[Iconoclast]

Do any of you guys ever get tired of debating the same topic?

Sometimes new people might come on and like to see what people say about it.
Other times if someone posts a link more than a sentence or two, most will not read or comment on it, so it circles back to this more often than not....

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I did not ignore it. I commented on it.
Hos is upset, because he fails to grasp that Paul guided by the Holy Spirit is actually able to speak about more than one theme in 1 cor 15.

You are patently ignoring the immediate and obvious context of both passages. You are re-writing them both. Dr. James corrected your misuse of Romans 5 and you avoided it, by ignoring it and re-writing it with I Cor. 15...
When I showed you how you were ignoring I Cor. 15's immediate and obvious context and re-writing it, you appealed BACK to your mis-reading of Romans 5....That is not properly exegeting Scripture. It is ignoring it.

Hos evidently does not like federal headship, or the Image -bearer doctrine in Romans 5, or here In 1 cor 15.....

I dislike neither one....I dislike those passages being ripped from their immediate context and abused.

Hos must not see that Paul also speaks of the Kingdom being delieverd up to the Father.
Hos cannot link redemptive historical ideas together ....even when it is the same apostle writing.
because justification is featured in Romans 5, and resurrection in 1 cor 15, does not mean that they do not intersect .

They do "intersect"....sure, but they don't RE-WRITE each other. That's what you are doing.

at the last day...resurrection day.....federal headship and the Image-bearer doctrine will be found to be the utmost importance

Your pet "doctrines"...will NOT be the "utmost importance".

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
HINT: Those conformed to the Image of the Son...are Christs at His coming.That is why it is called a resurrection unto life:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Yes.....so....how does that prove your point? It says exactly what it says. There is nothing to debate here.

You cannot understand romans 5, or 15 ...so the personal attack comes, so you do not have to speak about the scripture...

You have said nothing new so far about either one. I am talking specifically about Scripture....you are talking about your pet doctrinal notions first...and then super-imposing them on the Scripture. They both say precisely what they intended to say. And indeed "All" does indeed mean "All" in Romans 5, it always did and it always will. You have not demonstrated your point in the least, you have merely re-asserted it.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Icon....on a side note: I think it would be fascinating for someone to Psycho-analize why you just switched to addressing people in the third person:

*weird*

 

[Van]

Pitchback

How did the Fall of Adam affect us?
Can a sinner freely decide to accept jesus?
God states that the death of his own son was propiation for all, paid the debt for all, yet God cannot save all?

Your questions were answered but rather than discuss or acknowledge, you ask more questions. And if those are answered, you ask more questions. The Bible clearly and plainly answers all three questions, yet you ask rather than present God's truth.

Can a sinner, with his limited spiritual ability, if he has not lost it through hardening, put his faith and devotion in Christ? Sure. Will God accept it and credit it as righteousness? God knows.

Is God able to save anyone and everyone of His choosing? Yes, because Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Is God's purpose and plan to compel everyone, i.e. the doctrine of Universalism? Even Yeshua1 should be able to answer that one. This whole exercise is simply an effort to throw up a smoke screen, with implications non-Calvinists hold unbiblical view.

This is the sum and substance of Calvinism's defense, just shuck and jive folks, shuck and jive.

 

[preacher4truth]

I even have Calvinist friends that don't like James White. James White is one of those win-the-debate-at-all-costs Bible agnostics and is an expert in straw man arguments against the KJVO position.

Ah, this is hilarious -- of course you have Calvinist friends!!

I'll give the benefit of doubt, though it is becoming increasingly more difficult to do so.

But please Dr. since you lay claim about White having straw man arguments against the KJVO position, name some specifically. Don't accuse without proof. It's a lame argument and deceitful 'debate' 'tactics'. You've proven nothing at all with your statements, and as they stand they are simply baseless slander.

Now recall how I answered your straw man argument (that 'we cannot know' in essence in which Scripture plainly proves you to be incorrect) and proved you wrong with Scripture to which you cannot answer except to pull an absurd "is your name written in psalms?" question.

See how I; 1) Stated your straw man with your wording; 2) Rebutted your myth and straw man with Scripture.

You've been proven incorrect in that accusation. Now please provide proof of your accusation on White or simply stop accusing. OK?

Now go get some proof to back up your accusations. We'll be waiting. BTW, I've read his book on KJVOism "The King James Only Controversy". An excellent resource and work.

- Blessings

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon....on a side note: I think it would be fascinating for someone to Psycho-analize why you just switched to addressing people in the third person:

*weird*

When I perceived that a spirit of divination had overtaken you,as you were seeing demonic spirits manifesting themselves in laughing emoticons.....i thought that addressing you in the third person might get through your new found "gift' of discerning of emoticons:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Van

Can a sinner, with his limited spiritual ability, if he has not lost it through hardening, put his faith and devotion in Christ? Sure.

Will God accept it and credit it as righteousness?

Man has nothing righteous......


6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

God does not credit man......man does not earn any credit.....it is not a works gospel.....
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



3 for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;'

4 and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt;

5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:

6 even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works:


God imputes it......God is not in debt to man.