to work or not to work?

The difference is that circumcision was only a sign of the covenant and the only promise attached to it is the promise of punishment if not observed. Gen 15 Baptism on the other hand is not just a mere sign, for it also carries the gospel promise of eternal life (Rm 6, 1 Pt 3). I realize this is very basic, but it is what time allows. If I don't respond, don't be offended, I just ain't home to see your posts. Going to go see my honey so I won't have to much time to chat.

 

This has been an on-going discussion on various threads now for some time. But I firmly believe that the Bible teaches: first, that baptism does not take the place of circumcision. So to bring in circumcision is irrelevant in respect to salvation. And second, that baptism is purely symbolic, and has nothing to do with salvation.
DHK

 

While that is your interpretation, other equally sincere persons believe differently. That very difference in opinon is the genisis of this thread.

That is for sure. So no person can even know for sure if they themselves are really saved or if they are merely fooling themself.

No doubt you disagree.

Ron

 

Absolutely. I disagree because I know that if I were to die right now, I would go straight to Heaven, as surely as if I had already been there a thousand years. I know that if I die ten years from now that I will go to Heaven, for all my sins: past, present and future have been put under the blood of Christ. I have been forgiven completely. I stand before Christ justified--just as if I never sinned. It is He who has given me His righteousness. I have none of my own. My righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Isa.64:6). When God looks upon me he doesn't see that, he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I believe what the Bible says. It is so very simple. The Bible says: "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son hath not life." I have the Son. He is my Saviour. I have eternal life. The gift of God is eternal life. Yes I can know for sure.
DHK

 

DHK, you previously said,"Faith without the works ceases to be faith." and "If there is no resulting change after faith, then the so-called faith is dead. It never was. It is useless."

How do you know that you will continue in good works for the rest of your life?

How do you know that you won't "backslide".

How can you say that you know that you won't if others who also thought that they were saved have and will cease in their good works?

Would saying such a thing about yourself, when other seemingly equally saved persons have fallen to the wayside, mean that you think there is something special you?

Ron

 

There has been a great change in my life since I have been born again. "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Any body can backslide. Lot did. The Bible calls him "that righteous man." I can't guarantee that I won't, but by God's grace I will not. If I do, I still will have a guarantee of Heaven. My salvation is not dependent on whether I backslide or not. My sins are already put under the blood. "There is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus" (Rom.8:1).

See above. I never said that I know I won't backslide, though I did say I know I have eternal life. Those are two different things.

You have obviously not understood what I have posted. I never once intimated that I would not fall, would not sin, would not backslide, etc. Where are you getting these ideas from? I never once intimated that I was any more special than any one else. I am redeemed by the blood of the lamb. I have something to rejoice about. My sins are forgiven: past, present and future. I have been born again: not with eathly corruptible water, but with the Holy Spirit who changes people. I am an heir of God and a joint heir with Jesus Christ. I have so much to be thankful for, and rejoice about. Am I someone special? Yes! I am a child of the King.
DHK

[ November 14, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

T2Understand:
The Bible is it's own best interpreter. It is up to man to interpret the Bible as it has been revealed. I would suggest to you that there are many reasons for the various "interpretations."

1.Men do not rightly divide the truth. II Tim. 2:15.
2. Some men really do not believe in absolute truth. John 17:17.
3. Many do not examine the Bible as literature requires. Psalms 119:160. They do not study the totality of the evidence.
4. Many are biased by their creeds. They hold the truth in unrighteousness. IIThes. 2:10-12.
5. Men are blinded by their pride and false teachings. Mat. 15:12-14, John 12:42-44.
By the way, there is no scriptural evidecne and teachihng for anything ONLY OR ALONE saving anyone. The only time this phrase is used is in James 2:24 and it is used in reference to faith and NOT BY FAITH ONLY. Moreover, the jailer was not saved by his belief only according to the totality of the context and the rest of the harmonious evidence on this subject. note vs. 33. The evidence of scripture indicates men are saved by the following:
1. Grace. Eph.2:8.
2. Working Belief. John 6;28,29, Hebrews 11:6.
3. Obdience. Hebrews 5:8,9, John 3;36, IIThes. 1:6-9, Mat. 7:21-24.
4. Blood. Col. 1:14, Eph. 1:7, Rev. 1:5, I Pet. 1:17,18.
5. Repentance. Luke 13;3,
6. Confession. Romans 10:10, I John 4:2
7. Baptism. Mark 16:16, I Pet. 3:21,Col. 2;12, Acts 2:38; 8:39; 22:16; 18:8; 8:12; 16:15; 19:1-6,Gal.3:36-29, Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-5.
8. Faithfulness. Rev. 2:10.
9. Gospel. Romans 1:16, James 1:18, IPeter 1:23.
10. Doctrine. Romans 6:17,18.

 

This nice long list of your (which your are so well-known for) does not prove a thing, Frank. Taking one word, and then putting a line of references behind it--what does that demonstrate? Take your verses, quote them in their context, rightly divide the Word if you are able, and demonstrate to all what you are trying to say.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God's grace has provided salvation. For by grace are ye saved. It is through faith, and faith alone that you are saved. Notice how explicitly it says, "not of yourselves." That means no works, no baptism, nothing of yourself that you can do can save you. "It is the gift of God." Again he repeats that it is God's gift. A gift cannot be earned or worked for. There are no works involved. Thirdly, he says very plainly, 'NOT OF WORKS." This is God speaking. Do you believe Him? Salvation is not of works. Three different times he reiterates that in this verse alone. Why not believe what the Bible says on this issue?
DHK

 

You know, DHK, for someone who slams others, such as Frank, for "not using the Bible correctly" you are profoundly guilty yourself.

You wrote:

Absolutely. I disagree because I know that if I were to die right now, I would go straight to Heaven, as surely as if I had already been there a thousand years. I know that if I die ten years from now that I will go to Heaven, for all my sins: past, present and future have been put under the blood of Christ. I have been forgiven completely. I stand before Christ justified--just as if I never sinned. It is He who has given me His righteousness. I have none of my own. My righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Isa.64:6). When God looks upon me he doesn't see that, he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ

That is NOT what the Scriptures say regarding the entrance into eternal life:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

It's talking about the Last Day, the Judgement Day. Cut it any way you wish, it is the time when every man will be judged.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

That includes you, pallie boy. No "free pass" for you because of your faith alone. You get to stand in line with the rest of us scruffy sinners and be judged according to your deeds.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

WHAT????? Patient continuance in well doing (hint: that means "good works") SEEK for eternal life. Well, how can you seek for eternal life when you supposedly already have it and cannot lose it? And the verse says, when you continue it with verse 6, that Christ will "render to every man according to HIS DEEDS -- eternal life to those who by good works have sought it"

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

And likewise, to those who have done evil and disobeyed the truth, they will be rendered indignation and wrath.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

There's that "doing" thing again. Your faith alone is just not going to cut it. I haven't seen ONE WORD in this passage, which is describing the universality of the judgement of God upon ALL MEN, about "faith alone", which is Luther's little heretical invention. Nothing.

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

See? Everyone gets this judgement. And St. Paul's emphasis here is that even the Jews get it. The Jews, like the "faith alone" crowd, thought they had a free pass because of their ethnic superiority. They don't.

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Not even good old DHK. Yupper, he, too, will be there and will give account. And whining about "....but I believeeeeeeeeed...." won't cut it. These passages say that Jesus is going to be looking at your life for some WORKS!!

Oh, and if St. Paul is not good enough for you, how about from our Master Himself:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You can tell me I dont' know what I am talking about. I would advise you not tell that to Jesus. He said that when mankind comes forth from our graves on the Last Day, we will be judged by WHAT WE HAVE DONE. Evil doers go to hell. Doers of righteousness to to Heaven.

End of story.

Brother Ed

(And I'm going to keep rubbin' yer face in these verses till you open yer eyes and LOOK)

 

I guess not. Here is what we have so far.

Faith without good works either ceases to be faith or it never was faith to begin with.

That person was not saved even though it may have appeared that they were.

This line of thinking must assume that it is at least possible for someone who thinks that they are saved to cease in good works.

So my question is: how can a person know with absolute certainty that they will never cease in good works at some future point in their life?

Especially in light of the fact that we have already agreed that it is possible and we both probably personally know persons that appear to have done just that.

Ron

 

DHK, I am just trying to reconcile what you are saying above with what you said before.

You basically said that faith without works either ceases to be faith or never was faith to begin with.

So works must follow faith, right?

How do you know that you will never in your life cease in works?

You must have seen it happen to others.

Why not you?

Ron

[ November 15, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

You are looking at works as a part of faith instead of a result of faith and seem to think that if works cease, faith ceases. However, good works naturally result from regeneration which is by grace through faith. Basically, no change suggests no regeneration and therefore no faith. If indeed regeneration took place then the person is still saved but an end to works would suggest that there never was any regeneration to begin with. A lack of effect suggests a lack of cause.

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

If there is nothing new (i.e. a change), there was no regeneration. The problem with your understand of faith and works is that you seem to believe that good works have origin with you and that you need to put the effort in to make sure you add good works to your beliefs.

"how can a person know with absolute certainty that they will never cease in good works at some future point in their life?"

However good works are a natural product of regeneration, if they were never there it suggests that there was no regeneration. Good works do not save but regeneration is the reason why a believer on this earth can say "I am saved". Works do not save at all, they are simply evidence of regeneration, they testify to a genuine faith saving faith. As already shown through 2 Corinthinas 5:17, regeneration is not just a "I say you've been regenerated thefore you are" event, it produces a real change (and this change testifies that there really was regeneration) and so a person who has truly been changed will usually come to realize this and not be able to deny it. That is why people who stop believing or whose works cease are considered (by those who believe in eternal security) to have never believed, there was no lasting change to evidence a genuine regeneration; so we say "They were never saved".

Hopefully, that helped you rather than confused you.

 

DHK:
In each verse posted, salvation is addressed with it's essential element.

1. An active faith is essential to salvation. Hebrews 11:6, James 2:21. One must seek God to be justified by faith. It is by a working active faith man is justified. The Bible says, in James 2:21," Was not Abraham justified by works when offered his son Isaac on the altar. " Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only." James 2:24." For without faith it is impossible to please him for he that COMETH to God MUST believe that he is and is a rewarder of them that diligently SEEK him." Hebs. 11:6. For you are all the children of God How? by faith IN WHOM? Christ Jesus for as many of you as have been WHAT? baptized INTO Christ Have put on Christ; for there is neither Jew nor Greek neither bond or free, neither male nor female, ye are all one WHERE? IN Christ Jesus: and if ye be Christ;s then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." One is justifed by faith WHEN? BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST. Gal. 3:26-29.

2. Obedience is essential to salvation. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY him. Hebrews 5:8,9, II Thes. 1:6-9.

3. Belief in Christ as the savior is esential. John 8:24. Jesus said except ye believe that I am he ye shall die in your sins.

4. Washed in the blood of Christ saves. Rev. 1:5. Jesus loved us and washed us in his blood for our sins. I Pet. 1:17,18. We are redeemed by his blood from sin unto salvation. I Cor. 6:10,11. One is washed justified and sanctified by his blood. SEE Romans 5:8,9.

5. Repentance is esssential to salvation. Jesus said in Luke 13:3, I tell ye nay but except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish. see also Acts 11:17,18.

6. God's grace saves us. In Eph. 1:7, the Bible says," In whom we have redemption through his blood even the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of his grace." SEE Titus 2:11,12.

7. The gospel of Christ saves. Romans 1:16, the Bible says," for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Jesus said to repent and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15.

8. Confession is essential to salvation. Mat. 10:32. Jesus said," Whosoever, therefore will confess me before men; him will I also confess before my father which is in heaven. see Romans 10:10, I John 4:2.

9. Baptism also saves us. In I Pet. 3:21, the Bible says, " the like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us not putting away the filth of the flesh but the answer to a clean conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Mk. 16:16. Jesus said, " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned." SEE Mat. 28:18-20.

10. Faithfulness is essential to be saved. Rev. 2:10. The Bible says in Rev. 2:10," Fear none of those things thou shalt suffer behold Satan shall cast some of you into prison that ye may be tried and ye shall have tribualtion ten days but be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life." see Rev 1:3; 22:14, II Tim. 4:6-8.

The Bible says this is the form of doctrine delivered that saves us. Romans 6:17,18." God be thanked you were the servants of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered you and being made free from sin ye have become the servants of righteousness."

The evidence proves that all of the above are essential to salvation.

 

No, I am simply accepting DHK's statement that if works cease then that means either faith ceased or there was no faith to begin with.

Yes, I understand that point of view. But the question remains. How does one know that they will not cease in works at some future point and thus realize that they were not saved when they thought they were?

Ron

[ November 15, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

DualHunter,

You've ignored the case presented. It's quite obviously that if a person claims to have been saved, but works never followed, then that person was never saved.

The case being addressed is a person who was saved, and for years lived in that faith, with good works following because of their faith...but later in life, those good works stopped.

Please address that, and not what we already know.

God bless,

Grant

 

Even that is not always the case. I know of Muslims who have converted to Christ, but secretly, because of the nation or society in which they live in. They have a choice: Be a secret believer or a dead believer. Are you to judge them?
"The Lord knows them that are His."

It is possible that the person was being a hypocrite and pretending to be a Christian. We don't know.
It is possible that the person is saved, and backslidden. We don't know.
What we do know: "The Lord knows them that are His."

[QUOTEPlease address that, and not what we already know.[/QUOTE]
"The Lord knows them that are His." That is what we know.
DHK

[ November 15, 2002, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

No, I am specifically asking about a person who truly believed that he was saved, not a pretender.

So, if you cease at some future date in your works which are the result of faith, then you may or may not be saved? You don't really know?

Same question, how do you know that you will not cease in good works at some future date and then not know if you are saved or not?

The question is, how do we know that we are His or not?

Ron

 

1 John 2:3-5 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him