To worship scholarship.

[Ray Berrian]

If the Scriptures were originally written in Hebrew and Greek, then how can Christians perfectly understand the Word of God, if they do not study the copies of the original documents/books of the Bible. The answer: We cannot understand the Word in the clearest of interpretation. Thus, scholarship, those who can teach us the original languages.

In Bible College we were mandated to study Greek if we were going to minister in the pulpit. At least now I can use the Concordance and "The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament.

The easier way out is to degrade the concept of study, but that is not the answer. The meaning of words, the grammatical tenses and context really do matter. Some would try to make you think that the KJV was what the Apostolate wrote down on the original documents of Scripture. Don't get me wrong, I have always studied the KJV and memorized the Word of God from this writing, namely the King James Version.

Most of the N.T. was written by the Apostle Paul who was a scholar and studied at the feet of Gamaliel. Thank God also for Peter the fisherman. The Lord God ministers through all of us even though we are probably unworthy servants of God. At times he uses the least of us to apparently do the greatest of ministry in our world.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Forgive me...

You are absolutely correct that "Fruits" is mis-used, abused, and not as clear as could be.

I didn't mean mere quantity, whether of people or bank accounts...

But, of changed lives...

Marriages healed...

Lost saved, trained, *and* discipled...

Things like that...

After all The Fruit of the Spirit is Love, ....

 

[HisMercy]

Ray Berrian,

Paul did not know(recognize) the Lord God because he studied at the feet of Gamaliel. Look what Paul did to the church with what he learned under Gamaliel. One need not know Greek or Hebrew in order to know God. It is written in Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Paul didn't know God until he was taught by God. As it is written in Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Right on SpiritualMadMan!

 

[John3v36]

Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Now after the eunuch was saved he went one way and Philip the other.

the eunuch had just himself, the bible, and the holy spirit.

What more did he need.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Hismercy,

I have to disagree a bit about Paul...

The problem wasn't with what Paul was taught at the feet of Gamaliel is was with the bias he thought on it, interpreted it, and applied it...

The knowledge wasn't a bad thing. In fact, IMHO, Paul used a great deal of what he learned under Gamaliel in his writings.

But, the way he interpreted that 'knowledge' was in error...

And, it took a few years on the 'back side of the dessert' to unlearn those deep prejudices.

But, that's just my personal opinion.

'Book Learning' can be a *very* good thing *if* the application is orchestrated by the Holy Spirit...

There are things that if you never 'knew' them in the 'natural' it would be hard for the Spirit to relate them to you 'Spiritually', only...

Short of being knocked off your donkey and being given a blinding vision...

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Prov 4:5-13
5 Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding!
Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.
6 "Do not forsake her, and she will guard you;
Love her, and she will watch over you.
7 "The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom;
And with all your acquiring, get understanding.
8 "Prize her, and she will exalt you;
She will honor you if you embrace her.
9 "She will place on your head a garland of grace;
She will present you with a crown of beauty."
10 Hear, my son, and accept my sayings
And the years of your life will be many.
11 I have directed you in the way of wisdom;
I have led you in upright paths.
12 When you walk, your steps will not be impeded;
And if you run, you will not stumble.
13 Take hold of instruction; do not let go.
Guard her, for she is your life.
NASU

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by John3v36:
...Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Now after the eunuch was saved he went one way and Philip the other.

the eunuch had just himself, the bible, and the holy spirit.

What more did he need.

The New Testament, for starters. The "bible" he had was the OT only.

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by John3v36:
It disturbs me that men put there faith in "men" and scholarship. I am not just referring to referring to resources, but essentially seems to worship scholarship.

Teaching and Scholarship is a gift to the Church. We do not 'worship' the gifts or the gifted, but the Giver of the gift. Your point is rather silly, frankly, and betrays a certain jealousy of those so-gifted, and an independent spirit common to carnal man.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Jesus' words are simple. Indeed it does not take a scholar to understand Jn 3:16 or Jn 6:37.

That however does not mean that we don't need teachers. While the gospel itself is simple enough for a child to understand there are some more difficult passages in scripture - and there have been 2000 years worth of theology to boot!

This desire to impugn scholarship is silly. Does having an advanced degree mean that a man/woman is automatically haughty and irreverent? I think not. I agree with Jude on this one.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Does having an advanced degree mean that a man/woman is automatically haughty and irreverent? I think not.

Agreed...

But the contrary is also true...

Having a degree in Biblical Studies does not a Spiritual Man make, either.

When you couple that with the fact that Biblical Things are Spiritually discerned and the Natural man recieveth them not...

IMHO it gives a cautionary note (not an exclusionary) to those of higher learning...

Unless you know the person is first 'Spiritual' you can not assume he has any greater understanding of things Spiritual, for all his degrees or learning, than a simpleton.

However, if that "Sage" is first a Spiritual Man, then the additional 'head knowledge' is of great use for the Holy Spirit can use it to open up our understanding of the ways of God...

Limiting our discussion to things Spiritual...

A degree without the Holy Spirit is, IMHO, useless.

A degree *with* the Holy Spirit is of Great value to the church.

For my part I wish I could hold my own with (or against?) some of those here who can read Greek and Hebrew perfectly parsing the tenses and verbs, etc...

As a technician it would do me great good to have a BSEE or an MSEE... Especially having the hands-on experience I have...

Yet, the average Engineer just graduating is about as nearly useless as they come, from a hands on technical sense...

In the same way a degree in Spiritual Things without the heart knowledge the True Christian Experience brings... Is just as inanimate and useless...

But, oh, let them know God Intimately and pastor a few years (more like at least a decade.

)... Then you've got something!

 

[Charles Meadows]

I disagree with your statement. The gospel IS simple - and it was intended to be so. One does not have to be a theologian to be saved.

Now when it comes to theology things are different. In trying to find the meaning of a difficult passage in Daniel a knowledge of second temple Judaism and extrabiblical literature as well as proficiency in Hebrew grammar will be quite useful.

And since when is "spiritual" to be equated with traditional.

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I disagree with your statement. The gospel IS simple - and it was intended to be so. One does not have to be a theologian to be saved.

Now when it comes to theology things are different. In trying to find the meaning of a difficult passage in Daniel a knowledge of second temple Judaism and extrabiblical literature as well as proficiency in Hebrew grammar will be quite useful.

And since when is "spiritual" to be equated with traditional.

I have seen men go to the Greek and come out with the silliest thing you have ever heard.
I know Greek and if you have a good translation, you have no need for the Greek.
You cannot show one spot in the bible where if you do not know Greek you will be lead astray.

 

[MTA]

John3v36 wrote:
I know Greek and if you have a good translation, you have no need for the Greek.

I think that statement begs the question of whether you knew you had a good translation before, or did you conclude it was a good translation because you learned the Greek to compare it to? Regardless, at some point you used your scholarly research and study to reach your conclusions and you have proffered a recommendation to others based on your interpretation of that knowledge. (Of course, it remains to be seen what a good translation might be, but that's another issue altogether.

)

I think you've met yourself coming and going.

The only danger with scholarship is getting caught up in the research and forgetting the message. However given that is not the case, we should never discourage, or be discouraged in attempting to learn more and there is nothing wrong with pursuing scholarly interests or in learning from those who have walked before us.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

The only danger with scholarship is getting caught up in the research and forgetting the message

Agreed!

However given that is not the case...

Unfortunately, it *is* the case too often.

I have seen a few too many who were too educated to remain a Christian...

we should never discourage, or be discouraged in attempting to learn more and there is nothing wrong with pursuing scholarly interests or in learning from those who have walked before us.

Agreed again!

Provided that the eyes are kept on Jesus even while following that teacher...

There were very few times Paul gave unabashed Praise to a person or group of people...

Acts 17:10-12 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. {11}These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. {12}Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

IMHO these scriptures both support Studying to show oneself approved unto God... But, also issue a warning not to just believe everything that is preached to you by any man, perhaps especially a scholar.

If the goal and result of the exercise is, "Therefore many of them believed", then it is a good exercise...

If not... then throw it out..

 

[Charles Meadows]

"I have seen men go to the Greek and come out with the silliest thing you have ever heard.
I know Greek and if you have a good translation, you have no need for the Greek.
You cannot show one spot in the bible where if you do not know Greek you will be lead astray."

I completely agree with you here. I think that Greek is unnecessary for understanding scripture. I also think that knowledge is a good thing. How can learning about language and ancient culture and writings hurt our bible study? If we find that perhaps a traditional stance we held seems unlikely after scholarly examination then, well, we learned something. The earth is obviously not 6000 years old - but many people will insist that any scholarship challenging this is "devolution" - I think largely because they're afraid of it! Christian authors have come up with some of the most laughable schemes to somehow explain how a young earth makes scientific sense - and all because they refuse to question a traditional (and wrong) interpretation. Do we stand on Christ the rock or Christ the slippery rug!?!? Learing more about the bible and science does not frighten me!

 

[Grasshopper]

I have seen men go to the Greek and come out with the silliest thing you have ever heard.
I know Greek and if you have a good translation, you have no need for the Greek.
You cannot show one spot in the bible where if you do not know Greek you will be lead astray.

KJV

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

NKJV

Matt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age ?"


Greek: aiÎwñn
Transliterated Word: Aion

As long as you have access to a greek lexicon and use it you will be alright. However if you are a KJVO person then those verses in Matt. can lead to a wrong interpretation.

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I have seen men go to the Greek and come out with the silliest thing you have ever heard.
I know Greek and if you have a good translation, you have no need for the Greek.
You cannot show one spot in the bible where if you do not know Greek you will be lead astray.

KJV

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

NKJV

Matt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age ?"


Greek: aiÎwñn
Transliterated Word: Aion

As long as you have access to a greek lexicon and use it you will be alright. However if you are a KJVO person then those verses in Matt. can lead to a wrong interpretation. </font>[/QUOTE]Tell me how would someone be lead astray by the above passages?

 

[MTA]

SpiritualMadMan wrote:
I have seen a few too many who were too educated to remain a Christian...

I suppose I would question if those being referred to in the quote were "Christian" to begin with!

Regardless, "worshipping scholarship" is no different than many other activities people engage in. Even the most innocent activities or endeavors is harmful when it becomes a "god" to us. Anything that preempts our worship, detracts from or refutes the Word of God is of no value.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Can I try?

How about someone taking the "End of The World" stance and then while looking at the 'technological age' of the earth figures they have plenty of time...

Both to repent and get busy... After all the world isn't going to end any time soon. So there's no hurry...

But, if it's "End of the Age", and we don't know when that age is coming to and end...

Then best be ready everyday starting *right now*...

Then when we see signs mentioned we do not look for the World's End but a change of "Age" or "Dispensation"...

End of (Age of) Grace, start of Tribulation/Milleniun...

I know the distinction is stubtle, to some, but for a 'few' it could mean the difference between getting straight with God now or putting it off a while longer...

Of course there's always things that fall out of the sky so one one is guranteed another day...

 

[DHK]

1Pet.1:13, "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Without scholarship, commentary of any kind, or Greek, please explain what the expression "gird up the loins of your mind" means, and then how you arrived at your conclusion.
DHK