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Today's New International Version

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by bb_baptist, Jan 28, 2002.

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  1. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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    The gender accurate translations DO have their shortcomings. Note the following transition that is LOST in the NRSV...

    ( John 2:24-3:1 NRSV)
    But Jesus on his part would not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people25 and needed no one to testify about anyone; for he himself knew what was in everyone. Now there was a Pharisee, named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.

    (John 2:24-3:1 RSV) but Jesus did not trust himself to them,25 because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man. Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.menmanmanman
     
    #21 Jude, Jan 30, 2002
  2. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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    I'll try again. Notice how the transistion and meaning is LOST (from the end of 2 and the beginning of 3)in the gender accurate NRSV. I wouldn't want to demonize the NRSV, but their ARE problems...

    ( John 2:24-3:1 NRSV)
    But Jesus on his part would not entrust himself to THEM, because he knew all PEOPLE 25 and needed no one to testify about ANYONE; for he himself knew what was in EVERYONE. Now there was a Pharisee, named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.

    (John 2:24-3:1 RSV) but Jesus did not trust himself to them,25 because he knew all MEN and needed no one to bear witness of MAN; for he himself knew what was in MAN. Now there was a MAN of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.
     
    #22 Jude, Jan 30, 2002
  3. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    -- John 11:25, in which Jesus is translated as saying: "Anyone who believes in me will live, even though they die."

    Not stepping in as a translator, just a writer. The above sentence is just bad grammatically; "Anyone is singular"; "they" is plural.
     
    #23 rsr, Jan 31, 2002
  4. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    RSR, since English doesn't offer a gender-neutral, singular, third-person pronoun ("it" carries the connotation of a non-sentient object), "they" is a generally acceptable alternative. (See page 3279 of The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, entry 4.)

    Joshua
     
    #24 Rev. Joshua, Jan 31, 2002
  5. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Joshua:

    I don't have the Oxford handy, but I will accept your word for it.

    Probably just showing may age :( and the effects of growing up with strict prescriptivist teachers. I think allowing the mixing of singular and plural nouns and pronouns is a modern innovation to address just the problem you pointed out.

    Still, I think the practice is inelegant. It's as if someone has smeared bright pink paint onto the sentence, requiring the reader to stop and wonder about the grammar.

    In writing, of course, you can usually resolve this without problem.

    - John 11:25: "All those who believe in me will live, even though they die."

    But in translation -- well, I certainly won't open that kettle of fish. How much is translation and how much is interpretation if the sentence were recast that way? [​IMG]

    BTW: I suspect the view you point out will win eventually. Who today (except the KJV only adherents) would prefer "Our Father Which art in Heaven" to "Our Father Who art in Heaven?"

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
    #25 rsr, Jan 31, 2002
  6. Mike Hall

    Mike Hall Member
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    Being the messenger of good news, I should hope my Master recieves my head in an exceptable condition.

    Read it for yoursefves! In print!

    :eek: WND.COM calls TNIV perversion! :eek: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26277
    Guess I ought to add the link, YES?

    God Bless everyone, even Mr. Scrooge.
    Mike

    [ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: cubbies_daddy ]
     
    #26 Mike Hall, Feb 4, 2002
  7. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Forever settled in heaven:
    perhaps accuracy n clarity of communication shd be the goal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Accuracy and clarity must always be the primary goal. Good literary style enhances the message in the receptor language.
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "We must sometimes get away from the Authorized Version, if for no other reason, simply because it is so beautiful and so solemn. Beauty exalts, but beauty also lulls. Early associations endear, but they also confuse. Through that beautiful solemnity, the transporting or horrifying realities of which the Book tells may come to us blunted and disarmed, and we may only sigh with tranquil veneration when we ought to be burning with shame, or struck dumb with terror, or carried out of ourselves by ravishing hopes and adorations."
    ... C. S. Lewis (1898-1963), God in the Dock
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
    #27 Chris Temple, Feb 5, 2002
  8. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    The TNIV, IBS and CBT blasted in this week's WORLD Magazine

    (You need to register with your email to read online.)
     
    #28 Chris Temple, Feb 15, 2002
  9. Mike Hall

    Mike Hall Member
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    #29 Mike Hall, Feb 17, 2002
  10. Daniel

    Daniel New Member

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    Would someone please tell me what is trying to be accomplished by releasing this TNIV? Please don't give me Zondervan's promo stuff. I've read that. That does NOT answer my question. Someone, please "cut to the chase." Thanks....
     
    #30 Daniel, Feb 19, 2002
  11. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    CHRIS:
    Just wanted to say thanks for quoting C.S. Lewis in your threads. His essay on modern translation, I think, is the best apology for modern translation. I can't find my J.B. Phillips New Testament; didn't Lewis write the introduction for it or for "Letters to Young Churches?"
     
    #31 rsr, Feb 19, 2002
  12. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    #32 Chris Temple, Feb 19, 2002
  13. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    Latest CBMW interaction with the TNIV translations: http://www.cbmw.org/tniv/response.html

    Samples:

    Hebrews 2:6-7 (NIV) "What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor."

    Hebrews 2:6-7 (TNIV)"What are mere mortals that you are mindful of them human beings that you care for them?, You made them a little lower than the angels; You crowned them with glory and honor."

    Hebrews 12:7 (NIV) Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

    Hebrews 12:7 (TNIV) Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their parents?

    James 3:1 (NIV) Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

    James 3:1 (TNIV) Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers and sisters, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
     
    #33 Chris Temple, Mar 21, 2002
  14. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    I'm not as opposed to the TNIV as some of you seem to be. I'm not endorsing it yet, I haven't made up my mind yet. [​IMG]

    Anyway, I've read several articles against the TNIV, but something always pops out at me: criticizing Matt 5:9 (or at least mention of changing "sons" to "children" in general). What got me interested in the "gender inclusive" debate was reading of the TNIV articles by someone who critized the TNIV's change in Matt 5:9 (and other verses), but at the end of the article called for a return to the KJV because of it's "faithfulness". Yet ironically, the KJV *also* has "children" in Matt 5:9!

    That got me thinking, so I started searching through a 1611 KJV reprint I had, that contains the original translators marginal notes. What I found was very interesting: there was *no* note on Matt 5:9, yet there were notes in over 50 other places where the translators themselves documented where they went with a "gender inclusive" translation instead of following the gender specified in the Hebrew/Greek (I can post the list if anyone is interested). And since they *didn't* note Matt 5:9, I must assume there are more that they also didn't note.

    Now I agree that the TNIV is going "gender inclusive" on a much bigger scale than the KJV, but it seems "gender inclusive" has been part of English translations for hundreds of years. Why has no one raised public outcry against the same sort of examples of gender inclusiveness in the KJV and other respected translations? Is it because everyone is simply unaware? If gender inclusiveness is so wrong, should we clean up all the other translations too? Where do we draw the line?

    Brian
     
    #34 BrianT, Mar 21, 2002
  15. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    After looking at my review copy of the TNIV, I have to fully agree with something Chris said earlier. I agree that the TNIV is simply a way to cut into the niche market carved out by Tyndale and the NLT.

    All in all, I still prefer the ESV.
     
    #35 TomVols, Mar 21, 2002
  16. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven New Member

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    according to this recent edition of Christianity Today, "evangelical backers of new translation say gender changes are 'accurate."

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/004/10.30.html

    what was an even more interesting read was their reprint of their 1974 comments on the NIV:

    "Christianity Today recommends that no version should be the "standard," neither the King James nor any other translation. You can memorize Scripture from a variety of translations. It's more important to understand a verse than to know how it is worded in a certain version. Preachers, aware of the variety of translations used by their audiences, can use them together in sermons to expound Scripture. A Bible study group may wish everyone to have a common translation, but why not rotate which translation you use? You can get more out of the Bible when you read different translations of the same passage. (You can also get the same benefit by studying Scripture in a foreign language.)"

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/110/21.0.html

    seems like 20-odd yrs on, their advice hasn't sunk in v much.
     
    #36 Forever settled in heaven, Mar 22, 2002
  17. Marathon Man

    Marathon Man New Member

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    Interesting thread. IMHO, this whole issue just reaffirms my belief that it is unfortunate that a dynamically equivalent translation, the NIV, has such a dominant position in the evangelical world.I really wish that either the ESV, Updated NASB, or even the NKJV would have become the evangelical standard.
     
    #37 Marathon Man, Mar 22, 2002
  18. bob walker

    bob walker New Member

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    What does the NIV and the satanic bible from the church of satan founder have in common....?

    what does hitler and the NIV have in common...?

    NIV and hitler and satanic bible

    go here and find out....this is true...

    the satanic bible and the NIV are printed by the same parent company....harper collins.

    this can be proven beyond dispute from the harper collins web site.

    if only you will take 30 minutes of your time to prove this....can you miss one TV show to find this truth out....?

    bob walker :mad:

    they are all owned
     
    #38 bob walker, Mar 30, 2002
  19. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    LOL, was that post a joke? I sincerely hope so, but I fear not. Zondervan also publishes KJVs.

    Trust me, guilty by association is game you don't want to play. ;)
     
    #39 BrianT, Mar 30, 2002
  20. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    #40 Chris Temple, May 17, 2002
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