tongue speakers please answer

[Briguy]

Brian, the meaning of the word is the meaning of the word. Lots of people do have this gift. Proclaiming god's message is essential to "the church". Think about the Christians you know and you will probably know at least one that just has a great ability to proclaim God, that would be the one with the gift of prophecy. Brian, again I say, you have to take the word for what it means and then take that meaning in the context of the NT as a whole and the gifts of the church as a whole.

In Love and truth,
Brian

 

[Walguy]

Thanks again Bro, for your compliments and for your own excellent contributions to this topic.

I also want to apologize for anything I may have written here that came off as too harsh or unloving. I do genuinely care about all of you on both sides of the issue, and I want the best for all of you. It's just that 'tongues' speakers often take on an air of superiority in their manner that bugs me a bit. In most cases I don't think it's intentional, but natural human pride is one more reason why God wouldn't institute a Spiritual Gift like 'tongues' as it is currently practiced. This is both a Scriptural and common sense agrument against it.
Is there much more left to be said on the subject? Guess we'll see...

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Walguy:
Thanks again Bro, for your compliments and for your own excellent contributions to this topic.

I also want to apologize for anything I may have written here that came off as too harsh or unloving. I do genuinely care about all of you on both sides of the issue, and I want the best for all of you. It's just that 'tongues' speakers often take on an air of superiority in their manner that bugs me a bit. In most cases I don't think it's intentional, but natural human pride is one more reason why God wouldn't institute a Spiritual Gift like 'tongues' as it is currently practiced. This is both a Scriptural and common sense agrument against it.
Is there much more left to be said on the subject? Guess we'll see...

Ok, I think that it was you that said the completion of the NT is the "That which is perfect". Is this what you believe? If it is how can you say Tongues have ceased but yet believe there are people in your church who prophesy?

And you say you have to take it for what it says? Prophesy is Prophesy so who depicts which prophesy is the gift and the other is not. If both are prophesy than both are the gift. There seems to be a bit of contridiction in your statement.

God bless.

[ June 20, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Briguy]

Brian, Two things, DHK believes that "that which is perfect" is the Bible. Walguy and I do not. We both believe it is the Kingdom age after the second coming. The restoration of the perfection that Adam and Eve lost.

Second, remember what spiritual gifts are, they are not some hocus-pocus magical abilities they, today, are practical abilities given by God to make sure that each local church functions as a complete body, as described in wonderful detail by Paul in 1 Cor. 12. God wanted and wants each local "Body" to be complete. The Devil on the other hand wants to mess up the local and corporate church and thus you see the problems in many churches. Satan has done a great job causing dis-unity among believers.

Please read previous posts to answer your prophecy question.

Brian, keep searching and never be content that you know all there is to know on a subject.
In Christ,
Brian

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Brian, Two things, DHK believes that "that which is perfect" is the Bible. Walguy and I do not. We both believe it is the Kingdom age after the second coming. The restoration of the perfection that Adam and Eve lost.

Second, remember what spiritual gifts are, they are not some hocus-pocus magical abilities they, today, are practical abilities given by God to make sure that each local church functions as a complete body, as described in wonderful detail by Paul in 1 Cor. 12. God wanted and wants each local "Body" to be complete. The Devil on the other hand wants to mess up the local and corporate church and thus you see the problems in many churches. Satan has done a great job causing dis-unity among believers.

Please read previous posts to answer your prophecy question.

Brian, keep searching and never be content that you know all there is to know on a subject.
In Christ,
Brian

Brian, I will never be content and think i know all i need to know on anything. In fact, I dont know enough.

So do you guys believe in tongues? And if yes, does anyone in your church speak in tongues?

 

[Briguy]

Tongues? Did you forget who you were talking to

Tongues were a real gift that ended around 70AD. No one at our church speaks in tongues because the gift has ended. See other tongues thread for details

In Christ,
Brian

PS. Won't it be great when we get to Heaven and we will have the knowledge we lack here? I sure look forward to that!!!

[ June 20, 2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by The Briguy:
Tongues? Did you forget who you were talking to

Tongues were a real gift that ended around 70AD. No one at our church speaks in tongues because the gift has ended. See other tongues thread for details

In Christ,
Brian

PS. Won't it be great when we get to Heaven and we will have the knowledge we lack here? I sure look forward to that!!!

Brian I appreciate your attitude through this. But I dont unerstand, There still seems to be a contridiction in what you say. You say tongues have ceased/ended around 70AD. BUt it is clear that the bible teaches they will not cease until that which is perfect has come. Now you have stated that you believe that which is perfect is the new kingdom age or Christs second comeing. Do you see what I am pointing out. You dont have to give me the history of the gathering of the Jews but explain to me why Tongues ceased around 70Ad when it is plain "That which is perfect" has not come yet

Please Explain.

God bless

 

[ONENESS]

Brian, do you mind replying?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Brian, do you mind replying?

ONENESS:
This is what Walguy previously said;

"Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away." (I Cor. 13:8)
There's a very interesting feature of this verse in the original Greek. The Greek language, in addition to having tenses for its verbs, also has what are called 'voices.' The 'active' voice indicates action by the subject toward something else. The 'passive' voice indicates action on the subject by something else. The 'middle' voice indicates action by the subject toward itself. The word used in reference to 'prophecy' and 'knowledge' in I Cor. 13:8, translated 'pass away,' is in the passive voice, indicating that these things will end due to action upon them. Logically, this can only mean the beginning of God's eternal Kingdom, the 'New Heaven and new earth.' (Rev.21:1) Even with the whole Bible, we are still limited by our fallen human minds. For now, we can only know and understand and speak 'in part.'
The verb used in reference to 'tongues,' however, is in the middle voice. This meant that the Gift of Tongues would die out of its own accord, without anything external acting on it. This is exactly what happened. When those in the early Church who had this Gift died, the gift died with them. Those who advocate tongues today are trying to revive something that has already ended exactly as the Bible said it would. Not a position I would want to be in no matter how much I was 'edifying' myself.

Notice he believes "This meant that the gift of tongues would die out of its own accord. This is what happened. When those in the early Church who had this gift died, the gift died with them."

Concerning tongues, his position was that it ended at the end of the Apostolic Age. That is what Walguy states as his belief. Though it differs from mine, in that I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit ended at the end of the Apostolic Age, we both come to the same conclusion regarding the gift of tongues. On that we agree. On that all three of us: Briguy, Walguy, and myself agree completely. Tongues have ceased; they are not for today. What you have is a forgery, a counterfeit, something that definitely is not of the Holy Spirit.
DHK

 

[Walguy]

Briguy posts from his computer at work, so his opportunities are limited. That's why he sometimes takes a while to reply, not because he doesn't want to.
The Bible does NOT teach that tongues will only end when the perfect comes! I've carefully explained that earlier in this thread, and I reposted and expanded on that explanation in the other current tongues thread. Please go there and read that explanation.
With all due respect, this is another problem I have with 'tongues' speakers. You guys raise questions, we give you careful Biblically based answers, and then by the next day your love for the 'tongue high' has driven our answers completely out of your minds, and you come right back with the same points that we've already refuted. I love you guys, but it's frustrating to try to have an intellectual debate with people whose thinking on the topic at hand is so totally controlled by their emotions that any contrary argument just goes in one ear and out the other.
Here's a challenge for you. Pretend that you are NOT a 'tongues' speaker, and go back and read this thread and the other one through the eyes of someone who hasn't decided about the issue yet. Try to focus on the intellectual arguments and weigh them completely on their own merits, without regard to your own emotions and desires.
I make this challenge because this process - looking at all the evidence with an open mind and THEN making a decision - is exactly the process that I and most others on my side of the issue went through in order to arrive on this side. When I first started studying about tongues, I had no bias one way or the other. I just wanted to understand what the Bible taught. It's apparent to me that many if not most 'tongues' speakers got their education on the subject from people who were already speaking in 'tongues,' instruction that was naturally biased, and then directly from there got caught up in the emotional experience, cementing the bias in place. Thus, you guys were deprived of the chance to objectively look at the issue the way people like me and Briguy did before reaching a conclusion. This is the only thing I can think of that would explain some of the posts that have been made.
Again, I love you guys and only want the best for you, and I hope you'll take these comments and the challenge in a spirit of love.

 

[MEE]

Concerning tongues, his position was that it ended at the end of the Apostolic Age. That is what Walguy states as his belief. Though it differs from mine, in that I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit ended at the end of the Apostolic Age, we both come to the same conclusion regarding the gift of tongues. On that we agree. On that all three of us: Briguy, Walguy, and myself agree completely. Tongues have ceased; they are not for today. What you have is a forgery, a counterfeit, something that definitely is not of the Holy Spirit.
DHK

Is that according to the three wise men?

MEE

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by MEE:

Is that according to the three wise men?

No, it is according to the Word of God. My opinion means nothing. Neither does my experience. What does God say? That is the question that you need to answer.
DHK

 

[Aaron]

This discussion has gone on a long time. Time to wrap it up.

I'll close it tomorrow at noon (CDT), so get your final arguments in while you can!!

Your friendly co-moderator,

Aaron

 

[Walguy]

With all due respect, brother Aaron, unlike the other thread, no one has asked for this one to be closed.
If an admin or mod is going to close a thread, it should be for a more specific reason than the totally subjective, "This discussion has gone on a long time." It's gone on for about 1900 years, if you want to be technical. Attempting to end it at noon tomorrow seems rather arbitrary.
In the interests of full disclosure, may I respectfully ask what your position is on the tongues issue, Aaron?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Walguy:

In the interests of full disclosure, may I respectfully ask what your position is on the tongues issue, Aaron?[/QB]

Walguy, would you have asked this same question if Aaron had been anything other than a Baptist?

MEE

 

[Walguy]

My question was based purely on his position as a moderator, and his intention to close this thread. For the purposes of the question I don't care if he's a Moonie.

Seriously, I just think that when a moderator declares his/her intention to close a thread featuring a spirited debate without giving a real reason, that moderator has an ethical duty to disclose his/her own views on the issue being debated, since it's just possible that those views may have something to do with the unexplained action being taken. I believe it's a fair request to make under the circumstances.
Since Aaron hasn't responded yet, I will also add that I intend to protest to the management if he indeed goes ahead and closes this thread without giving a specific reason that justifies his action.

 

[DHK]

Before you make a protest Walguy, may I remind you that most moderators close down their threads when they reach 8 to 10 pages. I have been amazed that Aaron and Joseph have had the patience to allow this one to go to 15 pages. I am beginning to wonder if it is a record for length in this forum.
DHK

 

[Walguy]

Fair enough, but that still seems awfully arbitrary to me. I'm an admin on several boards myself (none nearly as active as this one, unfortuntely), and I would never dream of closing a thread just because it was long (unless the length is causing techinical problems with the board, of course, and in that case the discussion can just continue in a new thread).
I believe in letting people continue a discussion for as long as they still have something to say, if they behave themselves reasonably well. If the conversation turns ugly or the debate becomes clearly repetitive, those are perfectly legitimate grounds for closing. I don't think either of those things have happened here yet, however.
Anyway, just my thoughts on the subject. Under the circumstances, perhaps it would be better for a second moderator to agree with Aaron before the thread is closed. This would reduce the appearance of arbitrary action, and I would accept the decision without protest.

 

[ONENESS]

wasn't Cliff our mod at one time? What happened to him?

 

[Briguy]

Hey Walguy, DHK is right threads around here close around 8 pages or less even so this is quite a long one. The reason threads close sometimes is that new people tend not to check threads that are alot of pages because they feel like they have missed too much to get involved. The moderators here are good in that someone can just start a new thread with the same name and put a 2 or continue on the name and then that thread will go several pages. I don't think it is as bad as it looks. I would like to see Aaron's opinion on this as well.

Brian, I am so sorry I could not get back to you. DHK posted the same thing I would have. Tongues are to cease on their own, not the same as prophecy and knowledge. Walguy, DHK and myself have just tried to use scripture to point out when it was supposed to happen and when it did happen. Think about the books of the NT written after 70AD. Tongues are not mentioned in these books at all. I can't say for sure but it is probably understood as early as 70ish AD that tongues as a sign to the Jews were on their way out and no longer significant. At any rate just know that it is not my intention to make you or anybody look bad for speaking in tongues but rather to just show how the Bible itself points to the real conclusion on the incredible gift of tongues. It really would be a cool gift to have. I would love to be able to have a spanish speaking person walk into my church and be able to publically share the gospel message with them in their language. How great would that be!! Of course someone would have to be present to interpret what I said to the rest of the assembly, therefore edifying the whole assembly. Remember that gifts never self-edify, they are for the common good (1 Cor 12:7). But with the gift being gone, me and you will not see this ability in our churches. What I described above was basically how tongues worked in those early assemblies after the day of Pentecost, up until 70ish AD. Keep searching Brian and thank you for your kindness in this debate. Again, and sorry about the delayed response

Take care Brother Brian!
In Christ,
Brian

[ June 21, 2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]