Tongues as Evidence

[Don]

Okay, since we both know Cornelius wasn't saved, and that's why God sent Paul to him (if you really read through the passage, you'll notice that Cornelius was highly regarded by the nation of Jews--the very same ones that rejected Christ, and were therefore lost), I'll take it on that evidence that nothing I've told you makes any difference simply because I haven't spoken in tongues.

I'm curious: Brian, what do you think about that?

And MEE, you didn't answer at all my question about Paul speaking in many languages, and the stuff I presented on that subject.

See? We're still being very civil here. Are you surpised?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Don:

And MEE, you didn't answer at all my question about Paul speaking in many languages, and the stuff I presented on that subject.

See? We're still being very civil here. Are you surpised?

Don, I feel that this is a "loaded" question.

Yes, I think Paul was a very well educated man. I believe that he knew several "earthly" languages.

Now what?

MEE

 

[susanpet]

I have not posted for awhile because I've been busy. I've been reading the posts in this thread and it's the same thing over and over again. Tongues, pro and con. I guess I stayed away because I hear all this at home anyway, being married to a tongue-speaker.
I've been studying this topic for over ten years and praying over it that long. God has yet to show me that speaking in tongues is necesary for evidence of the Holy Spirit.
What I can't understand is why the people I know who have this "gift" are very rude and they don't have any "fruit". All they do is brag about their "experience" and that every one else is wrong. It seems to me they love their "experience" more than they love Christ. It's not how high you jump or how loud you shout, it's how you walk when you hit the ground.
From my own experience, I don't want what they have if it makes me big-headed and self-righteous. When I get around my in-laws (all-tongue speaking people) they are very rude to me and make me feel second-class because I am a Baptist. Yes, I try to carry on a conversation with them, but they usually only answer and turn their backs to me. It's like they are afraid some of my Baptist might get them dirty or something.( I kid you not!)
So after all these years I will still stand for what I believe and always thank Jesus for dying for me on the old rugged cross. It's still the blood that washes our sins away. I pray that I will grow closer to the Lord and be a light to a lost and dying world. I really don't believe that when I make it to the pearly gates I won't be allowed in because I don't speak in tongues. It's the prescious blood of my dear Savior that will allow me in to heaven.
Susan

 

[Don]

Correct, MEE. Loaded? Nope; only meant to get you to think about some things.

Exactly, Susan. As I just got through telling a gentleman in an e-mail, why do we insist on MORE than the blood of Christ to "prove" our salvation? Why, like the Pharisees in Acts 15, do we require something more than His sacrifice on the cross? Even Peter, the first to speak in tongues, and the first to hear the Gentiles speak in tongues, gives us this thought in Acts 15: "We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved."

I had a pastor once that said if you couldn't give up smoking after being saved, then you hadn't repented enough, and you probably weren't really saved. You see, Romans 8 tells us that we have the victory over the flesh if we have the Spirit; so if you don't have the victory over the flesh (like smoking or alcoholism), then obviously you don't have the Spirit.

I humbly submit for all to think about, that he placed a yoke on the people that God never intended--and that you can just as easily replace what he was saying with "speaking in tongues" or "baptizing your children" or "shaving your head."

Ultimately, he taught a gospel of doubt instead of one of the joy of God's salvation through Christ Jesus. And he still doesn't understand why he has a "revolving door" congregation.

If what you teach is MORE than the simplistic preaching that Peter gave in Acts 2 and in Acts 10 ("that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"--10:43), or that Jesus Himself told us in all four gospels, then my friends, plainly and simply, you are wrong, and you are placing a yoke upon the people that God never intended, and you are preaching a gospel of doubt instead of blessed assurance.

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> All they do is brag about their "experience" and that every one else is wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes we do brag about our experience. It is not the fact that we are bragging on ourselves but on what God has given us. It is a real Joy To have the gift of the HOly Ghost.

Now I am not saying that you are wrong, I want even go there. I am just here to share with you the word of God and what he has done for me. And if I can persuade someone on the way, Then Priase God

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It seems to me they love their "experience" more than they love Christ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our experience is Christ. When you are baptized with the HOly Ghost you have Christ in you.

Its not tongues that we are so excited about, its the fact that Jesus dwells within us. And there is a peace that passes all understanding with knowing that you are his child wether you are Pentecostal, Baptist, Pres, Catholic exc.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Acts 19 was the first time that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on the *GENTILES.* It was a surprise to the Jews that was with Paul because God had also given His Spirit to the *GENTILES <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mee dont you mean Acts 10

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Okay, since we both know Cornelius wasn't saved, and that's why God sent Paul to him (if you really read through the passage, you'll notice that Cornelius was highly regarded by the nation of Jews--the very same ones that rejected Christ, and were therefore lost), I'll take it on that evidence that nothing I've told you makes any difference simply because I haven't spoken in tongues.

I'm curious: Brian, what do you think about that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please take this as me just trying to explain. If I do recall it was Peter not Paul. Just wanted to point that out to yoo

But anyway Peter was not sent to Cornelius, Cornelius was sent to go see Peter and Peter met him.


Is that right?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'll take it on that evidence that nothing I've told you makes any difference simply because I haven't spoken in tongues.

I'm curious: Brian, what do you think about that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don I promise you that I am answering this the best I can. But I think you are asking me If I am saying that you are lost b/c you have not spoken in tongues. Is that right?

Going on that I want to say I have No idea. I am not your judge. I believe what I beleive to be true and You believe what you believe to be true and I dont want to take that away from you. Is it my place to judge you?

The only thing you and I can do right now is continue in prayer and If it is Gods will for me to convert to what you believe then I trust God to lead me there. And if it is the Will of God for you to be persuaded to believe what I believe to be true; then i hope that you will trust God to lead you. I cant make you belive anything you dont want to.

But as far as this goes I stand on this.... I believe that there is only one right way out there. I dont think that every denomonation is going to heaven. I do not think that is how God intened it to be. There is only one church out there that God talks about comeing back to get. And that is HIS church.

Now all we have to do is decide which one it is. Hey I hope its your church, I really do b/c If what you say is to be true is the correct thing to be done; We have already taken part in that. We will have just taken on a little more than we were supposed to. But on the contrary if what we say is to be true then there are a few that have missed the mark. Would you not agree?

Its getting late so let me close with this. Susan there are alot of people that have their noses stuck up a little far in the air in Pentecost. But you know what, God hates Pride. So even if they are that way God will get them. But wether you are baptist, UPC, Methodist so on and so forth you will find that no matter where you go.

Just b/c there are a few of us out there that are not perfect, dont let it stop you from persueing a relationship with God. I am sure you have a pretty awesome one from what I have heard you post so far. Keep on keeping on.

Well its getting late and Ive posted a report (LOL) hope it does not get boreing. If you guys dont mind I have a need that I need met and if you would lift me up in your prayers I could use it. God Bless

Brian

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[MEE]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 19 was the first time that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on the *GENTILES.* It was a surprise to the Jews that was with Paul because God had also given His Spirit to the *GENTILES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mee dont you mean Acts 10

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks ONENESS.... I knew that! I suppose I hit the '9' by mistake.

MEE

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I had a pastor once that said if you couldn't give up smoking after being saved, then you hadn't repented enough, and you probably weren't really saved. You see, Romans 8 tells us that we have the victory over the flesh if we have the Spirit; so if you don't have the victory over the flesh (like smoking or alcoholism), then obviously you don't have the Spirit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea i think he stepped a little beyond his lines.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If what you teach is MORE than the simplistic preaching that Peter gave in Acts 2 and in Acts 10 ("that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"--10:43), or that Jesus Himself told us in all four gospels, then my friends, plainly and simply, you are wrong, and you are placing a yoke upon the people that God never intended, and you are preaching a gospel of doubt instead of blessed assurance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ("that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"--10:43 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish I could say this the way that I want to so it would make since to you. Acts 2:38 short hand: "And be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins"

See how believing on Jesus will cause you to be obident to the commandments of the Apostles. Jesus opened the apostles understanding and gave them the knowledge of salvation and Jesus gave them the words to preach (Luke 24:45-49)

Jesus prayed for everyone who would believe on Him Through the apostles words. (John 17:20). So in a nut shell beliveing is an action word. Therefor makeing the statement ture "If we believe on him we shall be saved" Believing is not a stopping point or a final destination in our Salvation. It is the gateway for bible salvation.

You can say to me "Believe On the lord and thou shall be saved" And I know that when I believe on him I am going to move on and do what I am told to do b/c I believe what he says. But if you take someone that has no knowledge of the truth and tell them to believe on Jesus and never repent and Go to hell. B/c someone told them "All you have to do is believe"

I know this is about tongues but while I am here let me go on to point this out. Since it is really just us four that is in this thing. (Don, Lorelie, Mee, and Myself)

In John 3 Nick was told that he must be born again and 11 verses down he is told that all he has to do is believe on the son and he will not perish. (John 3:16)

Jesus mentions 2 diffrent requirements here. He said you have to belive and you have to be born again. Which one is it? Is this a contridictory?

John 7:38-39 shows us how believing relates to being born again. There is not a certain way that we can choose to believe. The bible tells us that we need to belive the Way Scripture tells us to in order to receive the Holy Ghost.

38. He that believeth * on me, as the scripture hath said * , out of his belly shall flow * rivers of living * water.

39. (But this spake he * of the Spirit, which they that believe * on him should * receive * : for the Holy Ghost was * not yet given; because that Jesus was * not yet glorified * .)

Do you not see? It is more than a change in the way that we think. When you believe "as the Scripture says" you will have a scriptural Experience.

Is beliveing the act that saves us? Yes, a thousand times yes. B/c If you dont believe on Jesus what else can one do with New testament Salvation? But does it stop with believing? No we continue in our Christain walk believing and Doing everything God wants us to do.

If it was to stop at believing then Cornelius would have done all he had needed to do. But there was something missing. He had the belief part down. But what did he lack? He lacked the New Birth experience. And the New Birth is how we are born into his church.

When we believe it is going to motivate us to persue what Jesus wants us to do. In other words believing In Jesus causes us to be obident to do what he wants us to do. So therefore if you belive on the Lord you shall be saved. B/C believing/Faith motivates us into action.

It is more than just a head trip.

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
From my experiences, some speaking in tongues is fake. Some healing services are fake. Some may be staged. Some are not. The gift of healing and the gift of speaking in tongues are gifts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are gifts, but I have yet to find anyone using them according to the guidelines laid out in the scriptures. Either way, this topic is about whether this gift is the "evidence" of having the Holy Spirit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

Perhaps some believers need the gift of speaking in tongues to draw them closer to the Lord or keep them closer to the Lord. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That isn't Biblical. We need the Spirit itself, not gifts given by the Spirit. That isn't faith.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/QB]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:

But when we get glorified bodies, perhaps we will all speak in an unknown tongue, or perhaps it will be Hebrew.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no unknown tongue. That word was added in the KJV translation but was not in the original texts. The word is tongue, plain and simple. No tongue in the Bible was "unknown".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EagleLives911:
I have heard of things happening overseas, miracles, etc., that would never be accepted as factual or reality by some Christians in America. Wonderful and marvelous things are happening just in the distribution of the Jesus Film Project, alone, as well as in other areas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are they Biblical? We are told that many will do many "wonderful works" in Christ's name but he will tell them to depart, for they are not one of His. (Matt. 7:21-23)

Are you sure these people don't fit this description?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2Corinthians 11:13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15
It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

~Lorelei

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Lorelei]

ONENESS,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, yes my 'lil one keeps me busy! Thanks for being patient.

I never answered the question because I was so far behind I was only answering questions that regarded scripture. I will humor you and answer it, but I will ask you this. Does the Bible ever ask anyone to prove the day and time they received the Spirit? I thought it an invalid question.

Anyway, yes I remember the exact moment I was saved. Since it was so many years ago, I do forget the date and the time of day, but I will never forget that moment, where I was and what circumstances led me to that moment. It was the moment I accepted Christ as my savior and he filled me with His Spirit forever more. I might give the details later, but there is much more ground to cover.

As for Acts 8, we have discussed this in the past. Are you aware of how the Samaritans were treated by the Jews? Are you aware that they would not associate with them and considered them outcasts and half breeds? Are you aware, that up until this time only Jews had received the Holy Ghost?

This is the first time that the Samaritans received the Spirit. God used Peter in all instances of expanding His Kingdom from just the Jews to also include Samaritans and Gentiles. God did indeed tell us (Matt. 16:18-19) that Peter would hold those keys. Of course once Peter unlocked that door and allowed Samaritans and later Gentiles into the kingdom of heaven, then the door remains unlocked and there is no longer a reason for us to wait for this blessing.

As for Cornelius, I see where he believed in God, but it does it say that he believed in his heart that Jesus was the Christ and rose from the dead? Many devout Jews believe in God and deny the Messiah. Cornelius was a gentile and still believed in God, but he needed Peter to explain how to gain true salvation. Peter explained to them Christ and as he was speaking the Spirit fell upon them. Again, the keys were used to unlock the door to the Gentile world and now that they received the Word, this gift is there for anyone of any kind.

They did speak in tongues, but it was not the "evidence for the Gentiles". It was a sign for the Jews. The Gentiles didn't need proof, the Jews did. Paul calls this a sign not "evidence".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

We can assume that He preached the Same Salvation Messege to them as he did on the Day of Pentecost. We know they repented, We know they were baptized in the Name of the Lord, and We know they received the Holy Ghost and Spoke in tongues<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You shouldn't "assume" too much. It tells us exactly what he said about Jesus that saved Cornelius and his family. It also says that Cornelius was saved and had the Holy Spirit and he had never been baptized in "Jesus name".

Argh..am out of time. I will post more in a little while. If I didn't answer something specific let me know!!! I didn't mean to overlook anything!

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You shouldn't "assume" too much. It tells us exactly what he said about Jesus that saved Cornelius and his family. It also says that Cornelius was saved and had the Holy Spirit and he had never been baptized in "Jesus name". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you will look at Acts 10:47

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the Name of the Lord.

Whats the Name of the Lord? Jesus

OK also have a question for you guys. Lets look at the scripture first.

I Corth 12:10
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Note: Interpretation of Tongues is a gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:7-8
7. And they were * all amazed * and marvelled * , saying * one to another, Behold * , are * not all these which speak * Galilaeans?

8. And how hear * we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born * ?

Now did these guys have the gift of Interpretation? No they did not. They did not even have the Holy Ghost so how could they have the gift.

Notice what paul says

I corth 14:13-15
13. Wherefore let him that speaketh * in an unknown tongue pray * that he may interpret * .

14. For if I pray * in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth * , but my understanding is * unfruitful.

15. What is it * then? I will pray * with the spirit, and I will pray * with the understanding also: I will sing * with the spirit, and I will sing * with the understanding also.

Note Paul says Let HIM that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that HE May interpret. (not the person beside you)

And Paul goes on to say If I speak in an unknown tongue my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

And then goes on to say that sometimes he will have the understanding and sometimes he will not.

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:


If you will look at Acts 10:47

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the Name of the Lord.

Whats the Name of the Lord? Jesus

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but they already had the Holy Spirit. They were baptized, but not to become saved, nor to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. All of that came before they were baptized.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

Now did these guys have the gift of Interpretation? No they did not. They did not even have the Holy Ghost so how could they have the gift.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right, they didn't need the "gift" of interpretation, for they already spoke the language. If someone was led to speak in a tongue and no one from that country was around, an interpreter was then needed. If you speak in a tongue and no one else is around to interpret then you should also have the gift of interpreting or you shouldn't speak in that tongue.

Let us look at 1 Corinthians 14
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>13
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

Note Paul says Let HIM that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that HE May interpret. (not the person beside you)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note: The word unknown was added to the KJV, the word is tongue. And yes, if you speak in a tongue and there is no one to interpret then you MUST interpret or not speak it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

And Paul goes on to say If I speak in an unknown tongue my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, so because of this look what he says to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is why you MUST interpret. He is saying it is pointless if you don't have understanding. He compares it to a trumpet that has no distiction of notes. That can cause major problems in battle if the note is not interpreted! (v 7,8) He said people will call you "mad" (v 23). The church can not be edified if you don't understand (v 17). He tells us if we are "eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church" (v 12). If you do not interpret a tongue, then the church is not edified (v 16, 17) so he would rather us prophesy so that we can edify the church. (v 19 & 24)

No, he doesn't say :

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:

"And then goes on to say that sometimes he will have the understanding and sometimes he will not. " <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He says if you don't have understanding then get it!

Read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 14! You will see it so much differently in context.

~Lorelei

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:

I don't know about whether you have been baptized in the *NAME* of Jesus Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cornelius wasn't baptized until after he received the Holy Spirit. Then He was baptized in the Name of the Lord. Being baptized, no matter what name you use for the Lord will not get you the Spirit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
OK, Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now IF ANY MAN HAVE *NOT* THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS *NONE* OF HIS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! The first thing we must realize is that since we can not call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit (1 Corin. 12:3), then we must have the Spirit upon becoming saved. There is no salvation apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, for we are justified by the Spirit (1 Corin. 6:11). Once we believe and receive our salvation, that gift of God, that promise from the Lord is sealed with the Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14) until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30).


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
what the Bible is saying is that you need to go a little deeper into the word and receive the Spirit the way they received it in the beginning. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deeper into the Word??? You have yet to show us in the Word where it says that we must speak in tongues. How much deeper can we go without adding to it????

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes, but they already had the Holy Spirit. They were baptized, but not to become saved, nor to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. All of that came before they were baptized. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes they did already have the holy Ghost, but that was not all God wanted them to do. You have to be born of the Water and the Spirit.

Thats why it was a commandment from Peter. Peter knew what the New Birth Was.

Now I know we disagree there just thought I would add it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you notice the the conjunction word is "and" not "but". I think thats what you call those kinds of words Its been a while since i have been in school

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Deeper into the Word??? You have yet to show us in the Word where it says that we must speak in tongues. How much deeper can we go without adding to it???? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lorelie it never does say that we Must Speak in tongues, But what it says is that we must have the HOly Ghost.

 

[Lorelei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Yes they did already have the holy Ghost, but that was not all God wanted them to do. You have to be born of the Water and the Spirit. Thats why it was a commandment from Peter. Peter knew what the New Birth Was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God wants us to do lots of things, but not all things are necessary for salvation. I am only referring to what is necessary to be saved, have the indwelling of the Spirit and therefore eternal life. Peter does know what the "New Birth" is. Please show me where Peter was baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Being baptized in the name of the Lord is not necessary for salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
If you notice the the conjunction word is "and" not "but". I think thats what you call those kinds of words Its been a while since i have been in school<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the NIV the word is indeed "but". Either way, the meaning is still the same.

One must not pray with only the Spirit, but with the mind also.

OR

One must pray with the Spirit and the mind also.

To pray in Spirit only and have not understanding was never an option listed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Lorelie it never does say that we Must Speak in tongues, But what it says is that we must have the HOly Ghost. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! We can have the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues!

~Lorelei

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God wants us to do lots of things, but not all things are necessary for salvation. I am only referring to what is necessary to be saved, have the indwelling of the Spirit and therefore eternal life. Peter does know what the "New Birth" is. Please show me where Peter was baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Being baptized in the name of the Lord is not necessary for salvation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And is the new birth not part of salvation? What do you mean Peter does not know what the new birth is? I cant show you that I know of, its just like the discussion with the repentance. It never states that they did it we just know from the rest of the Word of God that he did. Show me where He received the Holy Ghost? Can you do that.

Is God a respector of persons? What goes for one goes for all. There are no big me's and little you's in Gods kingdom.

If you would like we can discuss baptism as well Again (LOL)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> One must pray with the Spirit and the mind also. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats not how paul stated it. He said

"What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit and I will pray with the understanding also."

The way you put it sounds as if it is a commandment. So if it is a commandmand to pray in tongues with the understanding Then why hasen't anyone that you know spoken in tongues with the understanding? You dont have to answer that, just food for thought.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To pray in Spirit only and have not understanding was never an option listed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For he that speaketh * in an unknown tongue speaketh * not unto men,but unto God: for no man understandeth * him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh * mysteries.

Sounds like an option to me. There are somethings that are mysteries in the Spirit rhelm. Sometimes it is not up for men to understand. B/c when you speak in an unknown tongue you speak to God.

 

[Lorelei]

ONENESS,

Please answer this. Do you realize that word unknown was NOT in the orginal texts?? If you look in your Bible right now you will most likely find the word unknown in italics. They did this because this word was added in the translation. There is no unknown tongue. Go to any interlinear Bible. You will not find that word in the original texts. I have mentioned this many times. Do you understand this? I can help you if you do not.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:


For he that speaketh * in an unknown tongue speaketh * not unto men,but unto God: for no man understandeth * him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh * mysteries.

Sounds like an option to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you are taking one verse and completely ignoring the following texts. Read on, he is making a point and clarifies it in v 13.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>13
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you pray to interpret? Yes or No?
Does this verse say that you should?
If you don't pray to interpret, then why not?
Why do you ignore this verse?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
There are somethings that are mysteries in the Spirit rhelm. Sometimes it is not up for men to understand. B/c when you speak in an unknown tongue you speak to God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, Paul says
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>v 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are speaking in a tongue to God and it is unfruitful. So how do we make it fruitful? Shouldn't the Spirit bear fruit? Paul tells us, "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also". How do we pray for understanding? Go back to v 13. Interpret!!!


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
The way you put it sounds as if it is a commandment. So if it is a commandmand to pray in tongues with the understanding Then why hasen't anyone that you know spoken in tongues with the understanding? You dont have to answer that, just food for thought.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will answer that. Because they aren't speaking in the tongues of the Bible. See. if your experience doesn't line up with scripture, we don't change the scripture, we change our behavior.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
And is the new birth not part of salvation? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is. But the baptism isn't necessary for the "new birth".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
What do you mean Peter does not know what the new birth is? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re read what I wrote. I said he does know.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
I cant show you that I know of<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then how are you doing it just like they did when you can't show me how, when or where they did it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Show me where He received the Holy Ghost? Can you do that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, in Acts Chapter 2 v 4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost".


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Is God a respector of persons? What goes for one goes for all. There are no big me's and little you's in Gods kingdom. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very carefully read Acts Chapters 2, 8 and 10. Tell me that the apostles, the Samaritans and the Gentiles all received the Holy Spirit in the exact same way in the exact same order in the exact same method. Read more of acts and notice even more differences in the way that people were filled with the Spirit. Did they all receive it exactly alike??? NO

No, God is not a respector of persons, we all are given the gift of the Holy Ghost if we repent and believe on Christ. But God gives us the gifts of the Spirit as it pleases him.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>18
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are all given different gifts. The Bible clearly says that we do not have the same gifts. Does this make God a respector of persons? Of course not, but it does say that we will not all have the same gifts.

Please respond to at least these two questions.

Do you understand the word unknown was added to the text? That is important and is never commented on.

Also please read 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. It says that we will not all speak in tongues. Yes or no?

~Lorelei

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Don]

About three things.

John 7:38-39 is explained by verse 37: "Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."

What did they drink? His blood? His water? His tears? No, this is the same living water He was speaking of when he talked to the woman at the well. The living water written of in verse 38 is this very same water, pouring out through us.

I believe your point was actually verse 39 by itself.

Yes, I meant Peter. Thanks for ensuring I didn't confuse too many other people.

Brian, it's interesting that you point out the conjunction "and"; "and" is a joining word, meaning both things are connected. Like "me and my wife," or "him and her."

It's interesting, because you've pointed out that the phrase that Paul gives us in 1 Corinthians 14 says "I will pray with the spirit, AND I will pray with the understanding also."

You've basically proven Lorelei's point.

If Paul had said "or with the understanding," then praying in an unknown tongue to yourself would be completely justifiable.

But Paul said "AND." Meaning, "both connected together."

Just an observation.

 

[Don]

Another observation: Circles.

I think y'all know what I mean.

 

[ONENESS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Please answer this. Do you realize that word unknown was NOT in the orginal texts?? If you look in your Bible right now you will most likely find the word unknown in italics. They did this because this word was added in the translation. There is no unknown tongue. Go to any interlinear Bible. You will not find that word in the original texts. I have mentioned this many times. Do you understand this? I can help you if you do not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well looks like I have something to study today. What can I use to see the Orginal text? Is there anything on the internet?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Do you pray to interpret? Yes or No?
Does this verse say that you should?
If you don't pray to interpret, then why not?
Why do you ignore this verse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I do pray to interpret
Yes It does say that you should
I dont ignore them. I always pray for an interpration

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You are speaking in a tongue to God and it is unfruitful. So how do we make it fruitful? Shouldn't the Spirit bear fruit? Paul tells us, "I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also". How do we pray for understanding? Go back to v 13. Interpret!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is unfruitfull to your understanding, but not to your spirit.

He says if you pray in an unknown tongue your spirit prays, But your understanding is unfruitful.

What is wrong with that. My understanding does not have to always be fruitful. B/c I am learned on the subject So when I am around someone or in a prayer meeting and someone starts to speak in tongues it does not cause confusion.

Look at what he says next, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> how shall he that occupieth the room of the [bold]UNLEARNED[/bold] say Amen at the giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He then says that "Thou (or the person that is speaking in tongues) gives thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank My God I speak with tongues more than ye all.

Paul is just lectureing them b/c all they are doing is speaking in tongues, prophesying, bickering blah blah blah. He is just letting them know they need to act like they have a little bit of since and calm down. Not that there worship is bad, but you need to have a balance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
Show me where He received the Holy Ghost? Can you do that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes, in Acts Chapter 2 v 4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now.... How do you know that they Received the Holy Ghost? Will you answer that for me?

Sorry its takeing me so long, it has been really busy around here today.

Godspeed
Brian

 

[LadyEagle]

This discussion is pointless, punctuated with put downs & barbs & creates hard feelings. Some posts on here really come off with a superior attitude, hypercritical, so sure their position is the only correct one. What a shame. And so narrow minded, too. No wonder you have never experienced the gift of speaking in tongues. LOL.