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Tongues

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Singer, Feb 11, 2003.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You have a very confused theology when it comes to ecclesiology. Realize first of all that this epistle was writtten to the church at Corinth and was written to correct their problems (1Cor.7:1).
    Secondly, realize that these chapters (12, 13, and 14) are a discussion about spiritual gifts specifically. "I would not have you ignorant concerning spiritual gifts." I have given you a thorough explanation of the first three verses of chapter 12. From those three introductory verses you infer that you know my theology of the rest of the chapter. You are way off base! I explained to you three verses. That is all that we were discussing. But since you brought it up, I will go on.

    In verses 4 to 11, Paul gives a list of the different gifts that were in operation in that day, that were given to that church. These were special supernatural gifts that we do not have today. Even the gift of faith was something that we do not quite understand, but was a supernatural spiritual gift given during the apostolic period when the Bible was not yet complete. They were supernatural gifts they we do not have today.

    Verses 12 to 26 Paul compares the working of the local church at Corinth to the working of the human body. This is a beautiful illustration of the local church and thoroughly refutes any idea of a universal invisible "church," which some call the "body of Christ." Nothing could be further from the truth. Remember he is speaking to the Corinthians. How are they to understand what Paul is writing? Paul is writing in very simple language truths to be understood by all. He compares their church to a body. Many of them were carnal. Many vied for importance. Many of them wanted to be teachers, some of them wanting to usurp the very authority of Paul. So Paul writes to them and says:

    14 For the body is not one member, but many.
    15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    --Not everyone could be a hand, or a head, or an arm. Someone had to be the little toe, the ankle, the heel, etc. The body needs all of its parts to function, and every part does have its own function; just as the local church has many members and every member has its own part or role to play. Not every one can be a deacon or a pastor. Someone has to be the janitor. Another takes care of the nursery. This is the illustration that Paul was making that is applicable today.
    Then, not everyone had all gifts. That is important to note. Not everyone spoke in tongues. Only some did. Not everyone could heal; only some did. There were diversities of gifts. If only some people spoke in tongues why do Charismatics place such an importance on tongues today, to the degree that everyone should speak in tongues?

    26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
    --Obviously this refers to the local church and not to any universal church. When one person in the church of Corinth suffered, all other members would suffer with that member. That only applies in a local church setting. When a believer suffers in Africa that does not affect the believers in my church; we don't even hear about it. We don't suffer with them, for we don't know about it.

    19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
    20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
    --The church is one body. There were many members, but one body. This is the church at Corinth, not a universal church. Every local church is one body and has many members. The word church means assembly. There is no such thing as a universal assembly except in heaven.

    27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    --Again, speaking to the church at Corinth, this is what Paul said. He said you are "a" body of Christ. If you look in the Greek you will not find any definite article defining body of Christ. It was inserted by the translators for the sake of clarity and could have just as easily been translated "a."
    Every Bible-believing church is "a" body of Christ, in the sense that Christ is the head of that church, just as Christ was the head of the church at Corinth, as well as being the head of the church at Ephesus. Check Acts 20:28. God shed his blood for the church at Ephesus--meaning every church that believes the Bible and operates on its basis.

    BTW, consider that every epistle that is written is either written to a local church or to a pastor of a local church. There are 7 letters written to 7 pastors of 7 local churches in the Book of Revelation. The Apostle Paul went on three missionary journeys and in that time established over 100 local churches. Christ died for the church (assembly).
    Given what you have written in other posts, you are clearly outside of the will of God if you are not a member of a good Bible-believing local church. In one day 3,000 were saved, baptized, and became members of the local church at Jerusalem.
    DHK
     
  2. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    What is wrong with this stupid thing.

    I clicked post, and it didn't work, so I clicked 'back' and it returned to the original quote screen without any of my changes on it!

    Stupid computers man.

    I'll have to get back to ya tomorrow, I have to sleep.

    God Bless
     
  3. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Spitfire:

    Maybe your computer is a SDA Computer and doesn't work on

    SATURDAY !!!!!

    [​IMG]
    Hothead

    p.s SUN CORP. makes a good one..... ;)
     
  4. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    DHK,

    You have added to my horrors !
    I was astounded when a Catholic in a recent year long debate
    finally admitted to me..... this theory of the Vatican:
    (Mr. Weber has attested to a like comment).

    " Instead, Christ established an authoritative teaching church
    that He compared to the mustard seed which would grow
    and develop. I believe that the church Jesus established was the
    one that came to be known as the Catholic Church."


    Now you're saying this:

    " Christ died for the church (assembly). Given what you have written
    in other posts, you are clearly outside of the will of God if you
    are not a member of a good Bible-believing local church. In one
    baptized, and became members of the local church at Jerusalem. "


    Spitfire, our resident SDAist makes yet this claim:

    "Do we REALLY consecrate our WHOLE lives to Him? What about
    the Seventh day of every week for your whole life? How old are you?
    About 40 or so? That would mean that you have ALREADY had
    almost 300 opportunities to 'consecrate' yourself to Him on His day. If
    you live to be 85 you will have had over 600 chances to consecrate
    your self to Him on His day. If you never keep a single Sabbath in
    your whole life, you will have spent 600+ days
    in rebellion to Him."


    Soooo.....we have three oposing views as to what church means.
    1. Catholic Church
    2. Assembly of believers
    3. Sabbath Keepers

    All of these views have come from deep study of the bible, prayer and
    circumstances surrounding the pursuit by intelligent people to obtain salvation.

    Each of you have left out the simplicity that is in the Gospel and the
    Good News that is available to each of us. I feel that each of you three
    actually contribute to the the gospel story, but when you put emphasis
    on this subject like you have, you only confuse and turn people away
    from Christ. Do you see how bad this would be for a non-believer to
    view such commentary ! There is one common denominator and it's
    the words "Whosoever Believes".

    The gospel should include witnessing that can reveal salvation based on
    grace through faith, belief in the heart, repentance and confession that Jesus
    Christ has risen from the dead.

    The "Body of Christ" is an accumulation of those over the centuries who
    "Have the Son", known as Believers; with salvation granted to them
    on account of their choice to confess that Jesus rose from the dead.
    I see them also within the SDA, Catholic and Protestant churches and
    I feel that their (your) claims beyond the simple Gospel is doing more
    damage than good.

    Christ didn't die for an assembly.
    "Church" is not the Catholic Church as depicted in the bible.
    Belief in the heart is not affected by the Sabbath.
    Salvation is not based on these things.

    Singer
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In everything the Bible must be our authority: not the Book of Mormon, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen, G. White, Oral Tradition, the Pope, the Magesterium, etc. I have one authority: the Bible. There is no other authority. The SDA's have Ellen G. White. The Catholics have their Magesterium as well as Oral Tradition. I have only the Bible as my authority. There is the difference between me and them.

    As for definitions of the word church, if you want a Biblical definition, look up the Greek word "ekklesia" in a Greek lexicon, and see what you find. It means "assembly," or "congregation." It should have been translated that way every time it was used in the New Testament but for political correctness of the time it was not. The meaning of the word "church" is assembly every time. Can you prove me wrong Scripturally and using the Greek language.

    "All of these studies" that you refer to do not come from a deep study of the Word of God, as you contend, but from deep-seated presuppositions already made.

    If anyone would confuse the message of the gospel it would be a person named Zinger who disobeys the Lord in not "adding himself to the church," as the early believers did, in confusing the salvational issue and Christian living issue with tongues and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You have brought nothing but confusion to this thread by your views on these topics. My view on salvation and Christian living, on the other hand are very clear.

    "You have left out the simplicity that is in the gospel."
    Is this a false accusation? I believe it is. Can you point to a post where I have done so?

    We have been talking about spiritual gifts, primarily, not salvation. If you want me to explain salvation to you I will gladly do so:

    1Cor.15:1-4
    15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    --The gospel is defined in verses 3 and 4: that Christ died for our sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day. That is the gospel. Verse one says that the Corinthians received this message. That is, they believed it. And verse three emphasizes this point by saying "by the which ye are saved." They were saved by believing on the gospel: the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yes, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." He is the one who, by shedding His blood for us, took our sins on the cross, and paid a penalty that we could not pay. He made atonement for our sins, that if we should accept His sacrifice He would give us forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    It is a simple message, a message of faith in Christ, not of works: not of baptism, not of church membership--but of simple faith in Christ.

    And so it does. I never denied that. Why do you insuate that I did?

    That is your definition. Can you prove it Scripturally? It is a good definition for the "family of God," but not the "body of Christ." You are confused on this point. Every local church, not denomination, not organization, but independent local churches are separate organisms in themselves. According to 1Cor.12, Paul calls them a body. Can you deny that he did? The Corinthian church was called a body of Christ. The members of the Corinthian church were called "members in particular." Who am I to deny God? I don't believe the Catholic lie, or denominational deception. I believe what the Bible teaches.

    You are entitled to you (unscriptural) opinion, and flaunting your obvious disobedience to the Word of God by telling the world that you will not join a local church does far greater harm than you will ever imagine.

    Heb.10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    --This is a command. Do you gather together as the manner is (together in a local church) and so much the more as the day (the coming of Christ) approaches? You don't. You disobey. You live in disobedience to the Word of God. And a person who lives his life in wilfull continual disobeience to the Word of God, the Bible has some pretty sharp words to say:

    1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he
    cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    On a further note, I do not make claims that go beyond the simple message of the gospel. I believe what the Bible teaches. If by that statement you mean that you believe "only the simple messsage of the gospel," in the Bible, and nothing else, then I truly feel sorry for you.

    I never said that Christ died for an assembly "as depicted in the Catholic Church." The Catholic Church is a monstrosity of an organization. It is an hierarchy. It is the farthest thing that there is from a local church. I am not speaking of denominations or large organizations. I am speaking of individual local churches such as there were in the Bible: the Corinthian Church, churches at Ephesus, Philippi, Laodicea, Smyrna, Rome, Crete, etc.
    Consider Acts 20 very carefully:

    Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
    --At Miletus Paul calls together the elders or pastors of the church which is located in Ephesus.

    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    --After exhorting them for some time, this is what he says. He tells them to feed the flock. That is what the duty of pastors was. The Holy Spirit had made them overseers of the flock in Ephesus. They were the pastors of the assembly in Ephesus. Feed the assembly in Ephesus, "the assembly of God, which he has purchased with his own blood." Understand what he is saying to these pastors. God has purchased your assembly (church) with his own blood. There is nothing universal here. The church or assembly that is referred to is the one at Ephesus. This cannot be denied. That is exactly how these men would have taken the words of Paul. Christ died for the church of Ephesus, just as he died for every Bible-believing church in this age, and previous ages, and in ages to come.

    He then admonishes them in the same context:

    29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
    31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
    --He did not warn the world for three years day and night. He warned the local assembly in Ephesus day and night for three years, telling them that false prophets would arise, and enter into their assembly, their church, not sparing their flock. He is speaking about their church. It is applicable ONLY to local churches. The word church means assembly and nothing else.
    DHK
     
  6. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    You're becoming quite critical of me, DHK.
    Those attacks would be more becoming of a beginner....
    not a learned missionary.

    Tell me if you agree with this quote from a website:
    I think it covers the issue very well.
    _____________________________________________
    " In conclusion there is one true Church, but it is not found
    in a certain denomination or group by itself. Those who claim
    you must join their group or Church to be right with God, only
    prove they do not understand what the word Church or body
    of Christ means. It is not exclusive but inclusive, as it is
    found in the heart of all those who have accepted the true Jesus,
    and have come to God the way he has provided, and hold to
    the essentials of the faith. Whether one is Lutheran, Anglican,
    Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Charismatic, or Pentecostal,
    etc. The Church transcends denominational barriers, it exists
    within denominations, as well as outside of them. This is the
    Universal Church that has continued from the beginning of
    Pentecost. While denominations may have differences on
    peripheral issues, they do hold to the core beliefs that would
    make them part of the body of Christ."
    _____________________________________________
    If you want more...just click it into Google.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, there is not one true church--period. There are churches, assemblies. It is impossible to have one true assembly, except up in Heaven.

    Heb.12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    -- "church of the firstborn assembled in Heaven" The only place that a one true church (assembly) can be assembled is in heaven. Otherwise the "true church" concept is a contradiction of terms, unless used only in a local church context. For example, my church in Edmonton is a true church because it based on the Bible and its head is Jesus Christ. There ought to be many such churches just like it.

    "It is not found in a certain denomination." You are right. Denominations are not found in the Bible. Neither are invisible universal churches. The Bible always speaks of local churches.

    Those who make such a statement do not understand what the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to write in Acts chapter two, and in many other places in the Bible.

    Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
    --Notice: They received his word--were saved.
    2. Were baptized.
    3. Were added to the church--became members of the church at Jerusalem.

    42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
    --Where? in the church which was in Jerusalem.

    47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
    --Where? Which church? The church in Jerusalem. It was a very fast growing church.

    Acts 14:21-23
    21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
    22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
    23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

    Rom.16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

    3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
    4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
    5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

    1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
    2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
    --The Bible does not speak of a one true church. It speaks of churches; individual, independent churches--not denominations but independent assemblies.
    And the Bible teaches and expects that one who is saved, should be then baptized and then be a member of a local church. If not, he lives in disobedience to the Lord.

    This does not define a church (assembly) but it may define the family of God, which every believer is born into when he is born again (John 1:12; John 3:3).

    "The Church" doesn't exist as a universal body except in Heaven. A church is an assembly. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. The churches described in the Bible had nothing to do with denominations. What happened at Pentecost, happened in Jerusalem, and began at what would be called the church in Jerusalem. Later the disciples spread out from Jerusalem and started other churches, as they were commanded to do.
    DHK
     
  8. Glorious

    Glorious New Member

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    To 3Angels Mom .....

    I note an inconsistancy in your dialogue with Oneness.

    May I present it please?

    Your original story told as such:


    and following that:


    OK, so from this we gather, that when you gave your heart to God, the demons left you.

    This of course, would mean that your "sight protection" of seeing sensuous and other demons had gone, thus the attack and rape. Even tho you "felt uncomfortable", you were unable to see demons due to the fact the "gift" had left you upon your repentance to God.


    However, we continue your story, after you have been questioned:

    And so, we now see that the demons, after all, had not left you.

    Whoops!

    And so, you now suggest, he had a seducing spirit, which, at any other time, you might have seen it, but because he was seducing you, you did not see it.

    I write all this 3AM, because it seemed a little confusing to me. :confused:

    That is all.

    Glorious
     
  9. Glorious

    Glorious New Member

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    DHK

    Interrupting your heated discussion with Zinger (lol) (yeah, he IS a bit of a "zinger" eh! [​IMG] ) but may I present a scenario to you, and ask if you consider this a church?

    Perhaps Zinger feels like he does and does not wish to affiliate hiself with a local church. How about there are some others, perhaps half a dozen folks who feel the same, yet they all enjoy the fellowship of being with other christians and sharing the scriptures together.

    And so, they gather perhaps once a week for fellowship around Zingers kitchen table.

    Could we now say he is obeying Christ in this? Does he now belong to a church? It may have no name. No "members". Maybe someone decides to repent and give their heart to God .... could another gatherer baptize them?

    Thank you.

    Glorious
     
  10. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    (DK)
    No, there is not one true church--period. There are churches,
    assemblies. It is impossible to have one true assembly,
    except up in Heaven.

    (Singer)
    You're the first guy I've heard of to designate the body of
    Christ and the family of God as two separate things. Think
    of ''church'' in the sense of "believers' and then it makes sense.
    When I think of it in your way, it will only lead to denominationalism.
    Right away you reject Catholicism, Mormonism etc. I would
    give God credit for saving people out of those denominations too.
    Do you know that Catholics do not consider their church to be a
    denomination? They simply make the claim that they are the church
    that Jesus started on earth and the only one that has authority to
    deliver the truth to mankind. I reject that also, but do not
    discount the idea that God speaks to people in that church
    and saves them. ( Even while they belong). It's no different than
    your own secure salvation being drug down by some of your theories.
    I know spirit filled Catholics who are needlessly confessing
    their sins to a priestt, thinking the bread and wine is actually
    Christ's body and thinking that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass.
    The indwelling is obvious to those around them......the baggage is too.
    Your baggage seems to be your denial of tongues, your claim that
    all gifts and manifestations have ceased, the theory that
    the bible is the "Perfect which has come" and now this thing
    about assemblies.

    (DK)
    "church of the firstborn assembled in Heaven" The only place
    that a one true church (assembly) can be assembled is in heaven

    (Singer)
    And if so.....what is the consistency of that assembly in heaven.
    It's merely those who have the Son in this life. Those who are
    saved by grace through faith. We agree on that, why not agree
    that they are a group of believers who are scattered throughout
    the earth of all ages who will assemble in heaven as the
    redeemed. Otherwise....the one true church (not yet in heaven).

    (DK)
    And the Bible teaches and expects that one who is saved, should
    be then baptized and then be a member of a local church. If not,
    he lives in disobedience to the Lord.

    (Singer)
    If you then have a list of what churches are suitable....you are
    merely exclusive and cannot account for those believers who
    would join a church contrary to your liking or like in my case...none
    at all. Catholics , SDAists and the sect I grew up
    in already do this.


    Matthew 16:18
    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this
    rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail
    against it.

    Catholics use this verse to justify their "church"....they argue that
    Peter is the rock and others lean toward faith in Jesus as the rock.
    Are you saying that church in this verse is describing one in Jerusalem..?
    It sounds like a single solitary establishment.

    How about this verse:
    Acts 20:28
    Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over
    the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the
    church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Which denomination are they talking about ?

    As for assembling, I could and do assemble with believers in many
    places. There may be members of various denominations included.
    That is also church. A church is not a building or a denomination, but
    a group of believers; whether local or universal.
     
  11. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Glorious,

    Do you believe that if you pray and ask Jesus into your heart, that at no point after that, you can leave Christ?

    I do.

    Do you think that if you are living in sin, and entertaining the temptation of the devil, you are still 'walking in the Spirit'?

    I don't.

    I understand why you are confused. It is not my statements that are confusing, but rather your own preconceived ideas about Christianity that make things confusing to you.

    When I was in that situation, I was not right with God. I was not walking in the Spirit.

    When I am not right with God, God's Gift ceases.

    It was only once I repented of my sin of lust, that God's Spirit returned and gave me the power to see the demons there.

    The seducing spirit, that he has, came upon me again because I sinned and removed the Holy Spirit's discernment from myself.

    It was my own sin that greaved away the Holy Spirit and in that lack of Holy Spirit decernment I was made vulnerable.

    God Bless
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Hothead,

    Do not be fooled by DHK's remarks.

    He uses commentaries, adheres to the doctrines of his church, and other historical preachers.

    And when they disagree, he continues to lean on the opinion of learned men, rather than examining the truth from Scripture.

    I actually have said before, and I guess this is one of the instances where his 'involuntary illiteracy' takes over, so I will say it again.

    The Bible is my only authority. I do not read Ellen White for doctrinal assistance. I use the Bible and the Bible alone for study and doctrine.

    It must also be noted AGAIN that in NONE of my posts have I EVER stated that Sabbath observance is a means for Salvation.

    You have again, along with others, missed the point.

    If you are in Christ, you will keep His Commandments. One of them says to Remember the Sabbath day to KEEP it Holy. How can you KEEP Holy something that is NOT already Holy? (you might ask this because you do not think it is holy). Therein lies the problem. You fail to see that GOD made the Sabbath Holy, and regardless of your or my actions, it REMAINS Holy. We are merely reminded to KEEP it Holy in our own lives.

    Now, if you believe the Bible to be true, and you believe that God is sovereign, and that He is never changing, then you must believe that when He said 'remember', He MEANT, REMEMBER. He didn't mean, remember UNTIL I come, or remember until Jesus dies, He said REMEMBER. He also said it would be a PERPETUAL Covenenat with Israel for ALL Generations. I am IN that Generation. YOU are in that Generation. We are Heirs according to the Promise. We are JOINT Heirs to Abrahams promise. We ARE Israel.

    The Church of Christ didn't start in the first Century. It started with Adam. His children are seen sacrificing, foreshadowing Christ. We see in Hebrews, all those people doing things BY FAITH. It is through that faith that they are accepted. They had faith IN Christ. They believed in the coming Messiah. IT was THAT faith that was counted to them as righteousness.

    We are the continuation of that Church.

    Now you either MUST concede that Jesus is the perfect example to all believers, or continue in your rebellion against God's Word.

    Jesus kept the Sabbath Holy. He denounced the laws of the Pharisees, and kept GOD'S Law in the Sabbath.

    We see it all over 'what would Jesus do'.

    Well I ask you a better question, What DID Jesus do?

    Knowing that it was HIM Who through a sinless life was able to offer up a Supreme Sacrifice for our sin, shouldn't we, in appreciation for His act, do every thing in our power to obey?

    God Bless,
    Spitfire
     
  13. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Spitfire:

    Glorious didn't say she was confused.....just asking questions.

    By the way, am I grieving the Holy Spirit by not obeying the Sabbath?

    DHK seems to think I'm confused by supporting a universal body of
    believers and thinking that gifts still exist today. You think DHK and
    I are both confused by not understanding the evils of Sunday worship.
    I think the Catholics are confused in thinking that Peter was the first
    Pope, that the bread is actually Christ's body, that they are the One
    true Church, Mormons think we're all confused to not revere Jos. Smith.
    The sect I grew up in thinks you and me and the Mormons and the
    Protestants and the Catholics are confused. I know the JW's think I'm
    confused and it looks like most of the Baptists agree. DHK thinks everyone
    else is screwed up. I think....you think....we think....they think....he thinks...
    some think...................................................................

    Why can't we all just acknowledge "Whosoever Will" and "Whosoever
    has the Son" and let the rest wash down the river. It isn't
    important to salvation anyhow. We are not denied salvation just
    because we don't know whether Jesus had long hair or not. Or
    whether believe is an action word or a matter of faith. .......
    whether we worship on a certain day.

    What if Satan inspired our forefathers to formulate the first calendar
    wrong and Saturday is really Wednesday ??? :eek:

    ***He's that sneaky tricky ya know !!!

    Now I'm told I'm going to hell for not joining a church...try to find that
    in the bible.
     
  14. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Singer,

    Glorious said she found it confusing. Read her post.

    I didn't tell you that you were going to hell for not joining a church.

    You obviously have made your choice.

    "He that turns away his ear from hearing THE LAW even his PRAYER shall be an ABOMINATION".

    You know the truth, and you are now trampling on it.

    God Bless
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You have a good question Glorious. You described essentially the same way that our church was started and established. There were two or three families that met together in a home and fellowshipped together around God's Word. But eventually they called a pastor. Since the group had to have unity and purpose, a constitution was drawn up with a statement of faith to agree upon. Joining this group is entirely voluntary, but it must have some conditions attached, now that it has a statement of faith and constitution. To be a member one must be saved and baptized, and then agree to the best of one's ability to live a holy life. The purpose of the church now, was not simply for fellowship, but to carry out the Great Commission, and the two ordinances (the Lord's Supper and baptism), as the Lord had commanded us.

    A church is not simply: "Where two or three are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them" (Mat.18:20). That verse is not a definition of a church, and was never meant to be.

    A church is a voluntary organization of baptized believers who have come together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the the two ordinances (baptism and the Lord's Supper), as Christ has commanded us. It is an assembly or congregation, not a denomination or large organization. It in itself, however, does have organization: a pastor, deacons, etc. Each church is independent of each other. Each one is self-governing. A Biblical church has Christ as the head, and the Bible as its foundation. The pastor is accountable first to Christ, and second to his own congregation, to whom he is a servant.

    BTW, most of the churches mentioned in the New Testament were started in houses.
    DHK
     
  16. Glorious

    Glorious New Member

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    Hi there Ms Mom of angels:)

    I looked and looked at this, and did not quite understand your question.

    Thus, I shall answer it the best that I can, and hope you get the answer you require.

    IF what you are asking, do I believe in "Once Saved Always Saved", then no, I don't.

    I believe God does have mercy, but if we show ongoing unwillingness and a turning away from Him, then we lose our salvation.

    I hope that answers your question.


    I agree with you here, young lady. I don't necessarily mean I think salvation is LOST, but I agree a person in that state may have strayed from the safety of Gods protection.

    You spoke of "the temptation of the devil" also.
    I wish to say here, not part of the topic, but would like to mention, that the devil gets credited for a lot of stuff which I think our own human fleshly nature should get the blame for.


    "My way or the highway", eh??
     
  17. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Well you little Brat, Spitfire....now I'm an Abomination ...??
    You also call me disobedient.

    Catholics have called me stupid, illiterate, unlearned , unwilling
    and ridiculous.

    Those of my upbringing house church call me hardhearted and
    coerced by worldliness, blind and rebellious.

    DHK says I'm a fraud and demonic.

    Jesus calls me beloved, a child of God, "The redeemed" and
    a "Partaker of the Promise.

    Who should I believe. ??
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Glorious

    Glorious New Member

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    To DHK

    Most of what you said sounds nice enough to me.

    Big Sigh here ..... wouldn't it be just lovely to leave it that it is just the little simple house group meeting for fellowship rather than it having to grow into a large thing.

    sigh.....

    Where would one get a pastor from?
    Can't a member of the church who shows gentle yet strong, leadership qualities kind of lead?
    Cant it continue being as it started??

    sigh ...........

    Oh no ...... I can SEE your point of view, but of how sad that this sort of thing needs to be done.

    As people meet, can't it be just simple fellowship without all this extra stuff?

    Surely a person who does not enjoy the little kitchen table meetings will just die off.. just not turn up any more? Does it need conditions ?


    Can't one believer just baptise another? Does someone have to become a member of the kitchen table fellowship meeting now?


    sigh ..............


    OK I see your point again.

    BUT.....

    why oh why oh why ..... can't it all just be simple?

    Why must it be big, with rules and regulations and statements of faith, and "membership" and so on ......

    Oh for the kitchen table.
    Oh for baptism and emblem partaking in a quiet little manner.
    Oh for folks who can sit in relaxed manner together at the kitchen table reading and praying ad feeling Gods presense amongst them.
    Oh for simplicity.....
     
  19. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    II Corinthians 11:3

    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so
    your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't care too much for man's reasoning or traditions. I go by what the Bible teaches. In 1Cor.12, Paul calls the church of Corinth a "body," in fact referring to in particular as the body of Christ. Your argument is with God and Scripture. In Ephesians here is what Paul says:

    Eph.3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
    --He refers to all believers as part of the whole family that is in heaven and in earth--the family of God. The Lord uses different terms for a reason. He is not the author of confustion.

    No, never. Think of "church" as "Assembly of beleivers." It is an assembly. It is always used in that sense, even in the secular world. For example:

    Acts 19:
    32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
    39 But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.
    41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.

    In each of these three verses the Greek word "ekklesia" is properly translated "church." It is used elsewhere as assembly or congregation as well. However the word "church" or "churches" is used a total of 114 times, and each time the Greek word is ekklesia. There is another word for church building, "kurion," not used. But the word for assembly is used every time, and consistently translated "church." The word "church" in the Bible is an assembly" Your definition "believers" is wrong. It is like looking "red" up in the dictionary and telling me, "why don't you just say "yellow." Because it is wrong! A church is an assembly of baptized believers.

    Then you have poor logic. How can independent churches, all autonomous, self-governing, and separate one from another be a denomination or form denominations?? I am a member of an Independent Baptist Church. I don't belong to any denomination, association, convention, denomination, etc.,--none! Neither did the New Testament churches.

    I reject all forms of false doctrine.

    God saves individuals in spite of false doctrine of the organization that they belong to. After hearing the truth they have an obligation to leave whatever organization may be teaching error or heresy.

    2Cor.6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord,

    I don't know what you are talking about. My salvation is secure in Christ. I will never lose my salvation. Concerning salvation and Christian living, I have no theories, I believe and practice the Bible. My opinions and theories don't amount to a hill of beans. The reality is: "What does the Bible say? What does God have to say on the matter?"

    There are NO Spirit-filled Catholics that will confess their sins to a priest, or partake of their own communion believing in the blasphemy of transubstantiation. The Holy Spirit never leads contrary to His Word. He doesn't FILL people to do things or believe things contrary to His Word. The "indwelling" that you see is not obvious. I don't know what is obvious to you--emotions, good works, or whatever--but it is NOT the filling or even indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    I do not consider it "baggage" to believe the Bible. I give you evidence and Scripture, and you simply dismiss it.

    So far so good.
    Here is where you fail. Look up the word "assembly" It is impossible for a church in this world to assemble. Where would all the believers in the world assemble? Place please? Who is going to collect the tithes and offerings? Who is the pastor? the deacons? Your true church (assembly) theory, put in this context seems very foolish. It is just tradition, and that is all. That is not what the Bible teaches regarding the word "church."

    I know what to look for in a church: one similar to an independent fundamental baptist church. If Christ is the Head, and the Bible is the foundation, then that is what is most necessary. I would expect more than lip service to that statement however. To refuse going to a church out of stubbornness is one thing; but to not go because there are not any to go to is quite another. I would not go to a church holding to heresy either.

    Catholics take this verse out of context, use it as a pretext, to establish their own heresy. It is obvious from the Greek language that Peter is not the rock that Jesus was referring to. It is also obvious for the context of the rest of Scripture that Peter is not the Rock. God is referred to as Rock, as is Christ, throughout the Scriptures dozens of times.

    Christ said, "I will build my church." In some verses the word "church" (assembly) is used in a generic sense. When Christ refers to His church, He is referring to every local church that has Christ as His Head. Our Church belongs to Christ. Christ is the head of our church here in Edmonton. It is His church. He built it. We give Him the glory as we were used by Him to build His church in this city. There are other churches (not many) that belong to Him as well in this city.

    There are no denominations in the Bible. IFB churches are the closest to New Testament churches in my opinion. Acts 20:28 does refer to the church in Ephesus. There is no doubt about that, given the context that it is written in. He is speaking to the pastors of the church at Ephesus. He says to those pastors that God purchased your church (assembly) with His own blood.

    A church is an assembly of baptized believers that are assembled together for the purpose of carrying out the Great Commission and the ordinances of Christ (baptism and the Lord's Table).
    The Book of Acts has a common thread, a theme, a key phrase--"they were all with one accord." The reason why? They were taught the same doctrine and held to the same doctrine. Your statement is foolish to believe that a church (assembly) can include members of various denominations. They would not be "of one accord." Paul puts much emphasis on doctrine. He says to Timothy: Take heed to thyself and to the doctrine. Acts 2:42, they continued in the apostles' doctrine.

    Thus there is a need for every assembly or church to have a statement of faith, and for each member of the church to agree with it. You know very well if that statement of faith is Catholic, JW, or SDA, that you personally would probably would not join it. You need to know what the group believes before you join it.
    A church of "all denominations" either believes "nothing" and is totally ignorant, or believes "everyting" and is totally naive.
    God doesn't want either one. Take heed to the doctrine.
    DHK
     
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