Tongues

[Bible-belted]

Brian,

I'm sorry but you have not supported your assertion that Paul is referring to unbeliving Israel in 1Corintians 14. As such I cannot accept your interpretation. You have repeated your assertion but not supported it.

Again, there is NOTHING in the context of the passage in question that leads one to expect such a narrowing of view. That the Isaiah p[assage is a refernce to Israel is not in dispute, but it is also not relevant. Paul is referrring to Isaaih by way of illustration, precedent, not propehsy.

And you also have to contend with the fact that if you are right, then Paul is wrong, for the imperfect will not have gone when perfection came, but when destruction came. This perfection is the ONLY temporal marker in context.

I am sory but your view rests insufficiently on context and too much on assumptions read into the text to be acceptable.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Singer:

That is my invitation in the first place...(Test the spirit)
Test the spirit of tongues with the 7 tools from my first post.

I am still waiting for scriptural references for parts of your test.

I can test your experience without experiencing it myself. I tested it according to the Word of God and it falls short, there is no need for further examination. No prayer will ever change the meaning of God's Word. No experience can ever over ride it. If I can't see it from God's Word before experiencing it, I have no need to experience it. That is like telling me I have to experience the high from a drug before I can honestly believe that it isn't good for me.

Originally posted by Singer:
You'll notice they include prayer, praise, bible reading, bible study,
expectations of God, humility, etc.

Can Satan intervene amidst all that and deliver a LIE ?

Yes he can and the Bible has warned us of just that very thing.

2 Corinthians 11:13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The only way to know the difference is to know God's Word. Your little list is meaningless without solid contextual scriptural support for each and every point.

~Lorelei

 

[DHK]

1Cor.14:21,22:
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Verse 21 is a quote from Isaiah 28:11,12. Paul says, "in the law it is written." He is referring to the Old Testament. Then he says, "With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people." Who does "this people" refer to? Remember it is a quote from the Old Testament, from Isaiah. "This people" refers to the nation of Israel. The sign of the gift of tongues was to the nation of Israel. Men would speak in other tongues and still the nation of Israel would not hear or believe. Then Paul goes on and concludes with verse 22:

"Wherefore, tongues are for a sign to them that believe not." Tongues are a sign for the unbelievers, specifically the unbelieving Jew, as Paul just established in verse 21. That is the context of verse 22. If there are no unbelieving Jews present when one speaks in tongues the gift is fruitless. It was a sign to the unbelieving Jew. How many Charismatic churches have unbelieving Jews present. This is but one of many stipulations that Paul puts on speaking in tongues in 1Cor.14.

Another interesting aspect of the gift of tongues is in the list of spiritual gifts given at the end of chapter 12:

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Notice that these gifts are all in order of importace. FIRST apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers, AFTER THAT....and last of all, at the very end of the list, the least important of all the gifts is tongues. Paul puts tongues at the end, as the least important of all the gifts.
In verse 31 he commands:

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

This certainly discounts tongues; it was at the bottom of the list. And above all the spiritual gifts put together was love, which Paul then spends an entire chapter on.
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Singer,


Just to clarify, I am not a tongues prayer. I have before, but realized through a test I put on it, that not only was it not of the Holy Spirit, but it was demonic.

God Bless

Would you mind sharing what type of 'test' that you put on it? Also, how did you come to the conclusion that it was demonic?

 

[MEE]

Hmmm........just checking to see if there was any information about the test. Guess not!

MEE

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by MEE:
Hmmm........just checking to see if there was any information about the test. Guess not!

MEE

SORRY MEE!!

I forgot about this thread!

I am not ignoring you! It is late here though, I will post tomorrow.

It is REALLY interesting what I did.

God Bless

 

[Singer]

Lorelei:

Your preconceived ideas don't leave me much room for any
need to offer anymore to you. You're locked into your
shortsightedness by choice. I suppose you'd dispute with
the apostle Paul who said he spoke with tongues more than
anyone. The observers at Pentecost only had to say they
could not help but to repeat the things they'd seen and
heard. And you say I have to have documented proof...
I don't think so !!!!

You said:
The only way to know the difference is to know God's Word.
Your little list is meaningless without solid contextua
l scriptural support for each and every point.

 

[Singer]

Oh wow, the Spitfire is here, now we'll get the ball rolling.
Before you post your experience though....just remember
that Lorelei will require documented contextual biblical proof
for Each and Every comment you make.

Sincerity and content of the heart through faith is enough for
God to believe your intent.................

But not Lorelei............she's gotta have your blood and guts too !!

* Why don't you two gals get together and pull some hair..?
I like mine

 

[Lorelei]

Singer,

It doesn't leave any more room for you to spread lies. I am going to believe the Bible over you, and without your proof from that Bible, there is no more need for discussion.

Even Paul was checked according to the scriptures and never did he complain.

Acts 17:10-11
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
NIV

In fact Paul reasoned from the scriptures often. Even Jesus kept asking "haven't you read in the scirptures?"

In fact on Pentecost, Peter proved that what they were experiencing was from God by quoting the scriptures. (Acts 2:16-21; 25-28; 34-35)

Your unwillingness to even try is evidence enough that it isn't from God.

~Lorelei

 

[Victory Leader]

I posted on a Baptist only forum above and this was deleted. I'm sorry, I'm new and was cofused about the order of the board. Let's try it here.

I little history will probably be in order before I post too much here. I grew up in a couple of different Baptist churches. My family is Baptist to the bone and as far as I know they have all been Baptist down through the ages. My wife was not Baptist however. She believed in tongues as well as the other gifts and signs. This along with other differences in faith caused us some stormy times. The bottom line though is that neither one of us were born-again Christians. So neither of us could fully understand the Word of God since it is spiritually discerned.
In 1997 I was being dealt with heavily by the Lord. Our marriage was on the rocks and God was moving. He dealt with me about getting back into church and studying the Bible. I went to a men's retreat and experienced God like I never knew was possible. For three days I was under Holy Ghost conviction but in myself was denying that this was God. It couldn't be because these people believe so differently on some things than my Baptist teachers. Finally I yielded to the Lord and repented. He "saved" me and sanctified me. It was awesome. I felt His Spirit touch me and cleanse me. I felt it as He applied the blood. It was so wonderful. I was overcome with joy. Then suddenly my body began to quiver uncontrollably as the Spirit of God moved over it. About a year later after much prayer and tarrying I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spoke in an unknown tongue. It was powerful. The presence and power of the Lord surged through my body, spirit, and soul. I had zeal and didn't know what to do but tell others about the Lord. I finally felt like I could achieve something for Him. I have spoke in tongues since but not that often. It's not something that I choose to do but as the Spirit moves and I yield over to Him He gives me the utterance. That's the way it was done in the book of Acts. They sapke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. It's not "mumbo-jumbo" but it's not Spanish either.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My limited familiarity with the actual practice has not found any tongues believing church that enforces those guidelines.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that there is a Biblical order to tongues and it must be done in this fashion. I will not go fully into it right now but would like to share my experiences with you all. It has been a blessing to see this gift in action. It is really edifying contrary to what most people think because of what they see on TV. God Bless!

 

[Victory Leader]

I will also add that the Scripture bears evidence that the Spirit of God will not dwell in an unclean temple. Anyone who is claiming chrisitianity but still fufilling the lusts of the flesh is not a legitimate candidate for the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is why most people who claim salvation have not received this promise from God.

 

[Singer]

Backing up to page 3 and this input from 3 AngelsMom. (Spitfire)


You)
Those 7 things do not have the promise of protection from Satan. You are not EVER kept
from the temptation of Satan. As long as you are alive on this earth, the devil can tempt
you. There is NO safety from temptation.

Me)
This was not a matter of temptation and falling into temptation. It is a matter of
prayer and faith that God will answer prayer

You)
The Bible says to try the spirit to see if it is of God or not.

Me)
Isn't prayer the best and only avenue we have to God? We
can try the spirit through bible reference and through prayer.
We have the promise of the Holy Spirit as our comforter to
those of us who believe. We are the children of God..We have
the armor of God. What more is there...?

You)

HOW can you do that, when speaking in 'tongues' and you don't know what you are
saying????

Me)
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to
speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

We don't have to back everything up with scripture. The spirit gives
the utterance. We can't control Him can we ? Even that is scriptural.

You)
Can you DO what the Bible says to do, in regards to the spirits? Can you see if it is of God?

NOPE.

Me)
Can we control the Holy Spirit ?

NOPE

You)
The Pentecost experience was for the furthering of the Kingdom
of God. Those people UNDERSTOOD, what the Apostles were
preaching. It was for the EDIFICATION of the
Church, not just one person.

Me)

Didn't you read hrhema's post . .? It's all in there. Just like pizza !!

You)
This miracle, this gift, made it possible for all those people to
hear the Gospel and be saved. It wasn't for them to have 'an
unbelievable spiritual experience that felt undescribable'.

Me)
I suppose you'd deny that Christ's ascension was traumatic too.
Those present stood there in amazement. What would you
be doing; checking the bible for a verse to explain away their undescribable
experience...?

You)The phenomena that is occuring today is either one of two things.
A manefestation of the flesh, or a manefestation of a spirit. Since we
know that it is NOT God, because He gave us the test to try the spirits,
and He wouldn't send a spirit that cannot be tested, we can only
assume that it is an evil spirit, working deception.

Me)

You have to dispute the bible to make that comment stick.
You have Satan in command over God.. It is not that way.

Luke 11:13
" If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how
much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to
them that ask him?"

And if He chooses to give the occurance of tongues to go with the
gift, then who am I to complain..?

May God Bless you to more wisdom.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
Then suddenly my body began to quiver uncontrollably as the Spirit of God moved over it.

Can you show me one Bible verse where someone quivered when the Spirit moved them?

Originally posted by Victory Leader:

About a year later after much prayer and tarrying I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spoke in an unknown tongue.

Are you aware that there is no unknown tongue. The word unknown was not in the original languages and only the King James version even mentions it. In the KJV the word unknown is in italics because it wasn't in the original texts.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens upon salvation, if you are waiting for it, something is wrong.

Originally posted by Victory Leader:
That's the way it was done in the book of Acts. They sapke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. It's not "mumbo-jumbo" but it's not Spanish either.

But it was understood by everyone and in their own language.

Acts 2:6
6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
NIV

So if it's like this, why can't I understand you in English, and if we both speak English why is the tongue necessary?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Singer:
Me)
This was not a matter of temptation and falling into temptation. It is a matter of
prayer and faith that God will answer prayer

God will never answer a prayer in a manner that disregards what is written in His Word.

Originally posted by Singer:

Isn't prayer the best and only avenue we have to God?

No, prayer is how we talk to God, His Word is how He talks to us. Praying won't give you any revelation that violates His Word, nor will it change it's meaning.

Originally posted by Singer:
We
can try the spirit through bible reference and through prayer.

The Bible is enough, as I said, no prayer will change what it says or means.

Originally posted by Singer:

We have the promise of the Holy Spirit as our comforter to
those of us who believe.

And that Holy Spirit is what will lead us into all truth and the HS will never contradict Himself. If He told Paul one thing about the gifts of the Spirit He will NOT tell you something different.

Originally posted by Singer:
We are the children of God..We have
the armor of God.

We are only children of God if we believe the true gospel.

Originally posted by Singer:

What more is there...?

Actually listening to and obeying what is already written. Stop trying to change it to suit your experience.

Originally posted by Singer:
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to
speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

We don't have to back everything up with scripture. The spirit gives
the utterance.

As I pointed out above, Peter backed it up with scripture on the day of Pentecost, why can't you?

Originally posted by Singer:
We can't control Him can we ? Even that is scriptural.

No, actually it's not. In context about practicing spiritual gifts Paul tells us this.

1 Cor 14:32
32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
NIV

Originally posted by Singer:
You)
Can you DO what the Bible says to do, in regards to the spirits? Can you see if it is of God?

NOPE.

Me)
Can we control the Holy Spirit ?

NOPE

Wrong again.

1 John 4:1
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
NIV

Originally posted by Singer:

Didn't you read hrhema's post . .? It's all in there. Just like pizza !!

Hrhema isn't the Bible.

Originally posted by Singer:
I suppose you'd deny that Christ's ascension was traumatic too.
Those present stood there in amazement. What would you
be doing; checking the bible for a verse to explain away their undescribable
experience...?

You seem to describe it well enough, or at least feel compelled to let us know that the feeling is so extremely incredible that you talk about it a lot. Don't you think that the apostles would have felt the same way and mentioned at least one thing about it?

Originally posted by Singer:
You have to dispute the bible to make that comment stick.
You have Satan in command over God.. It is not that way.

Luke 11:13
" If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how
much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to
them that ask him?"

When you ask for a spirit that does things that go against the Word of God, you aren't asking for the Holy Spirit that inspired it. Many people are calling Jesus Lord, but on the day of judgement he will reveal that they never knew Him. Many people claim to be seeking the Holy Spirit, but are instead seeking a deceptive spirit that will make them feel good. If this were not so they wouldn't refuse the instructions from the one that is Truth, the one we read about in the Bible.

Originally posted by Singer:
And if He chooses to give the occurance of tongues to go with the
gift, then who am I to complain..?

But he doesn't.


~Lorelei

 

[3AngelsMom]

Singer,

God WOULD NOT send a Spirit that you could not test.

WOULDN'T do it.

If it is a spirit controlling you when you convulse and mutter, then that spirit needs to be tested.

If it cannot, it is not of GOD.

WE KNOW THIS FROM THE BIBLE.

TRY the spirits, *plural* to see if they are of God or NOT.

If you can't tell what you are saying through this spirit, then you DO NOT KNOW if it is of God.

God Bless

 

[Briguy]

Victory leader, Carol (MEE) and any other toungue speaker. Two points here first. DHK eluded to the need for Jewish folks to be present when tongues were being spoke in the early church. Paul made it clear that tongues are not to be spoken without interpretation. That is 100% clearly said. So, my question is were there unbelieving Jews present when you spoke, Did someone interpret? and thirdly, just for fun, how do your tongues edify "the Body" as Paul says spiritual gifts must, in 1 Cor. 12:7 (as I posted before).

also, I really think that you guys are not really thinking clearly about spiritual gifts in general. Understand this one thing and it may impact you. Spiritual gifts are given to us and WE CHOOSE when to use them. God doesn't power up our gift and let it fly when he wants. Our gift/s are given to us and we posses them. Think of the service gifts and the preaching/teaching gift. When the pastor delivers a message does he stand and wait for it to happen? No he studies through the week, prays for guidence in topic perhaps, but he works on the message. He is gifted by God to gather and present a message. How about the administraion gift. Does the elder that oversees the finances of the church only able to take on that task at certain times when God energizes his gift, again, No, it does not work that way. All the gifts are the same in that respect, Tongues sayers, could speak another persons language whenever THEY wanted. They would do so to share the Gospel in a language they did not know. Probably most of the times to Jewish folks but for sure with people from the "house of Isreal" present. Please understand that fact about the spiritual gifts as you pray whether tongues really is a gift for Christians now.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Singer]

Quote from Lorelei:

When you ask for a spirit that does things
that go against the Word of God, you aren't asking
for the Holy Spirit that inspired it. Many people are
calling Jesus Lord, but on the day of judgement he
will reveal that they never knew Him. Many people
claim to be seeking the Holy Spirit, but are instead
seeking a deceptive spirit that will make them feel
good. If this were not so they wouldn't refuse the
instructions from the one that is Truth, the one we
read about in the Bible.

Lorelei,


You're assuming I asked for ''a spirit''. I did not. Why would anyone
seek a deceptive spirit..? I asked God for clarification of the Baptism
of the Holy Spirit. As for "feeling good", I had no idea what feeling
would go with the experience. Remember, I was a doubter
beforehand; thinking it was all originated by the
participant. If this was not from God, then I remind you that I have
to warn everyone to stay away from praying and reading their bible in
the confines of their own home with expectaion. Stay away from
saying praises to God and do not attend Protestant bible studies as
it increases one's spiritual viability.

It's also interesting how you could quote this:

"We are only children of God if we believe the true gospel."

.......which are nearly identical words of our friends Spitfire and
Abie and Bob who use them to defend Sabbath worship
when you use them in an attack on tongues speaking
and don't follow the " true gospel" as they project it in
dealing with the Sabbath. They have offered volumes of
scripture to show how wrong you are in your Sunday
worshipping and yet you reject it.

Why do you reject your own advice.....?

Singer

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Singer:
Lorelei,


You're assuming I asked for ''a spirit''. I did not. Why would anyone
seek a deceptive spirit..?

No I am assuming you believe you are seeking the Holy Spirit but are being deceived by another, otherwise you would be more willing to justify your experience from the Word of God.

Originally posted by Singer:
I asked God for clarification of the Baptism
of the Holy Spirit.

This is why you are so easily deceived. There is no need to ask him to clarify what He has already said. Once you reject what was already spoken and harden your heart to that truth and continue to seek something that isn't real, then the deceptive spirit steps right up and convinces you that it is from God.

There is no need for further clarification. God's Word tells us all we need to know. When the Spirit of God enters a believer and leads them into all truth, that truth always is in unison with God's Word, not conflicting or adding to it.

Let me remind you that you say we should study our Bible yet you say it isn't necessary to support what you are teaching. That is nothing more than empty words.

Originally posted by Singer:

It's also interesting how you could quote this:

"We are only children of God if we believe the true gospel."

I find it interesting that Paul warned us that we must believe the gospel that he preached and that anyone who preached another gospel should be eternally cursed.

Originally posted by Singer:
.......which are nearly identical words of our friends Spitfire and
Abie and Bob who use them to defend Sabbath worship

Why do you reject your own advice.....?

Singer

Because I am believing the gospel that is taught in the NT.

I am resting in Christ's full rest, not a day of the week that was only symbolic of that rest.

Col 2:16-17

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
NIV

If you are so adamant that your spirit baptism encourages you to read the Bible, why do you keep refusing to use it to justify that same Baptism? Why haven't you acknowledged the fact that Peter did that very thing on Pentecost? What do you have to say to that?

If you truly have arousing sermons that make you study God's Word, why do you seem to be ignorant of what it says? In the last post I showed you a few areas in which your statements blatantly contradicted the Word of God. What have you to say to those scriptures?

I am still waiting for answers, are you going to address them or not?

~Lorelei

[ February 17, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Singer:
.......which are nearly identical words of our friends Spitfire and
Abie and Bob who use them to defend Sabbath worship

Why do you reject your own advice.....?

Singer

Quote by Lorelei:

Because I am believing the gospel that is taught in the NT.

I am resting in Christ's full rest, not a day of the week
that was only symbolic of that rest.

In all their sincerity, Lorelei, the Sabbath keepers are
pointing out to you that you cannot pick and choose parts
of the bible to interpret it how you wish. This is the same
thing you accuse me of in the tongues issue. Your request
for proof from the bible would not be taken seriously anyhow
because your mind is made up just as it is with the Sabbath
issue. You must see the parallel here.

If you want a good description of tongues, re read hrhema's
post and yes I know that person is not God. LOL

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Singer,

God WOULD NOT send a Spirit that you could not test.

WOULDN'T do it.

If it is a spirit controlling you when you convulse and mutter, then that spirit needs to be tested.

If it cannot, it is not of GOD.

WE KNOW THIS FROM THE BIBLE.

TRY the spirits, *plural* to see if they are of God or NOT.

If you can't tell what you are saying through this spirit, then you DO NOT KNOW if it is of God.

God Bless

Is this the 'test' that you were talking about?

MEE