Tongues

Brian,

I'm sorry but you have not supported your assertion that Paul is referring to unbeliving Israel in 1Corintians 14. As such I cannot accept your interpretation. You have repeated your assertion but not supported it.

Again, there is NOTHING in the context of the passage in question that leads one to expect such a narrowing of view. That the Isaiah p[assage is a refernce to Israel is not in dispute, but it is also not relevant. Paul is referrring to Isaaih by way of illustration, precedent, not propehsy.

And you also have to contend with the fact that if you are right, then Paul is wrong, for the imperfect will not have gone when perfection came, but when destruction came. This perfection is the ONLY temporal marker in context.

I am sory but your view rests insufficiently on context and too much on assumptions read into the text to be acceptable.

 

I am still waiting for scriptural references for parts of your test.

I can test your experience without experiencing it myself. I tested it according to the Word of God and it falls short, there is no need for further examination. No prayer will ever change the meaning of God's Word. No experience can ever over ride it. If I can't see it from God's Word before experiencing it, I have no need to experience it. That is like telling me I have to experience the high from a drug before I can honestly believe that it isn't good for me.

Yes he can and the Bible has warned us of just that very thing.

The only way to know the difference is to know God's Word. Your little list is meaningless without solid contextual scriptural support for each and every point.

~Lorelei

 

1Cor.14:21,22:
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Verse 21 is a quote from Isaiah 28:11,12. Paul says, "in the law it is written." He is referring to the Old Testament. Then he says, "With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people." Who does "this people" refer to? Remember it is a quote from the Old Testament, from Isaiah. "This people" refers to the nation of Israel. The sign of the gift of tongues was to the nation of Israel. Men would speak in other tongues and still the nation of Israel would not hear or believe. Then Paul goes on and concludes with verse 22:

"Wherefore, tongues are for a sign to them that believe not." Tongues are a sign for the unbelievers, specifically the unbelieving Jew, as Paul just established in verse 21. That is the context of verse 22. If there are no unbelieving Jews present when one speaks in tongues the gift is fruitless. It was a sign to the unbelieving Jew. How many Charismatic churches have unbelieving Jews present. This is but one of many stipulations that Paul puts on speaking in tongues in 1Cor.14.

Another interesting aspect of the gift of tongues is in the list of spiritual gifts given at the end of chapter 12:

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Notice that these gifts are all in order of importace. FIRST apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers, AFTER THAT....and last of all, at the very end of the list, the least important of all the gifts is tongues. Paul puts tongues at the end, as the least important of all the gifts.
In verse 31 he commands:

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

This certainly discounts tongues; it was at the bottom of the list. And above all the spiritual gifts put together was love, which Paul then spends an entire chapter on.
DHK

 

Would you mind sharing what type of 'test' that you put on it? Also, how did you come to the conclusion that it was demonic?

 

Hmmm........just checking to see if there was any information about the test. Guess not!

MEE

 

SORRY MEE!!

I forgot about this thread!

I am not ignoring you! It is late here though, I will post tomorrow.

It is REALLY interesting what I did.

God Bless

 

Singer,

It doesn't leave any more room for you to spread lies. I am going to believe the Bible over you, and without your proof from that Bible, there is no more need for discussion.

Even Paul was checked according to the scriptures and never did he complain.

In fact Paul reasoned from the scriptures often. Even Jesus kept asking "haven't you read in the scirptures?"

In fact on Pentecost, Peter proved that what they were experiencing was from God by quoting the scriptures. (Acts 2:16-21; 25-28; 34-35)

Your unwillingness to even try is evidence enough that it isn't from God.

~Lorelei

 

I posted on a Baptist only forum above and this was deleted. I'm sorry, I'm new and was cofused about the order of the board. Let's try it here.

I little history will probably be in order before I post too much here. I grew up in a couple of different Baptist churches. My family is Baptist to the bone and as far as I know they have all been Baptist down through the ages. My wife was not Baptist however. She believed in tongues as well as the other gifts and signs. This along with other differences in faith caused us some stormy times. The bottom line though is that neither one of us were born-again Christians. So neither of us could fully understand the Word of God since it is spiritually discerned.
In 1997 I was being dealt with heavily by the Lord. Our marriage was on the rocks and God was moving. He dealt with me about getting back into church and studying the Bible. I went to a men's retreat and experienced God like I never knew was possible. For three days I was under Holy Ghost conviction but in myself was denying that this was God. It couldn't be because these people believe so differently on some things than my Baptist teachers. Finally I yielded to the Lord and repented. He "saved" me and sanctified me. It was awesome. I felt His Spirit touch me and cleanse me. I felt it as He applied the blood. It was so wonderful. I was overcome with joy. Then suddenly my body began to quiver uncontrollably as the Spirit of God moved over it. About a year later after much prayer and tarrying I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spoke in an unknown tongue. It was powerful. The presence and power of the Lord surged through my body, spirit, and soul. I had zeal and didn't know what to do but tell others about the Lord. I finally felt like I could achieve something for Him. I have spoke in tongues since but not that often. It's not something that I choose to do but as the Spirit moves and I yield over to Him He gives me the utterance. That's the way it was done in the book of Acts. They sapke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. It's not "mumbo-jumbo" but it's not Spanish either.


quote:
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My limited familiarity with the actual practice has not found any tongues believing church that enforces those guidelines.
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I believe that there is a Biblical order to tongues and it must be done in this fashion. I will not go fully into it right now but would like to share my experiences with you all. It has been a blessing to see this gift in action. It is really edifying contrary to what most people think because of what they see on TV. God Bless!

 

I will also add that the Scripture bears evidence that the Spirit of God will not dwell in an unclean temple. Anyone who is claiming chrisitianity but still fufilling the lusts of the flesh is not a legitimate candidate for the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is why most people who claim salvation have not received this promise from God.

 

Can you show me one Bible verse where someone quivered when the Spirit moved them?

Are you aware that there is no unknown tongue. The word unknown was not in the original languages and only the King James version even mentions it. In the KJV the word unknown is in italics because it wasn't in the original texts.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens upon salvation, if you are waiting for it, something is wrong.

But it was understood by everyone and in their own language.

So if it's like this, why can't I understand you in English, and if we both speak English why is the tongue necessary?

~Lorelei

 

God will never answer a prayer in a manner that disregards what is written in His Word.

No, prayer is how we talk to God, His Word is how He talks to us. Praying won't give you any revelation that violates His Word, nor will it change it's meaning.

The Bible is enough, as I said, no prayer will change what it says or means.

And that Holy Spirit is what will lead us into all truth and the HS will never contradict Himself. If He told Paul one thing about the gifts of the Spirit He will NOT tell you something different.

We are only children of God if we believe the true gospel.

Actually listening to and obeying what is already written. Stop trying to change it to suit your experience.

As I pointed out above, Peter backed it up with scripture on the day of Pentecost, why can't you?

No, actually it's not. In context about practicing spiritual gifts Paul tells us this.

Wrong again.

Hrhema isn't the Bible.

You seem to describe it well enough, or at least feel compelled to let us know that the feeling is so extremely incredible that you talk about it a lot. Don't you think that the apostles would have felt the same way and mentioned at least one thing about it?

When you ask for a spirit that does things that go against the Word of God, you aren't asking for the Holy Spirit that inspired it. Many people are calling Jesus Lord, but on the day of judgement he will reveal that they never knew Him. Many people claim to be seeking the Holy Spirit, but are instead seeking a deceptive spirit that will make them feel good. If this were not so they wouldn't refuse the instructions from the one that is Truth, the one we read about in the Bible.

But he doesn't.


~Lorelei

 

Singer,

God WOULD NOT send a Spirit that you could not test.

WOULDN'T do it.

If it is a spirit controlling you when you convulse and mutter, then that spirit needs to be tested.

If it cannot, it is not of GOD.

WE KNOW THIS FROM THE BIBLE.

TRY the spirits, *plural* to see if they are of God or NOT.

If you can't tell what you are saying through this spirit, then you DO NOT KNOW if it is of God.

God Bless

 

Victory leader, Carol (MEE) and any other toungue speaker. Two points here first. DHK eluded to the need for Jewish folks to be present when tongues were being spoke in the early church. Paul made it clear that tongues are not to be spoken without interpretation. That is 100% clearly said. So, my question is were there unbelieving Jews present when you spoke, Did someone interpret? and thirdly, just for fun, how do your tongues edify "the Body" as Paul says spiritual gifts must, in 1 Cor. 12:7 (as I posted before).

also, I really think that you guys are not really thinking clearly about spiritual gifts in general. Understand this one thing and it may impact you. Spiritual gifts are given to us and WE CHOOSE when to use them. God doesn't power up our gift and let it fly when he wants. Our gift/s are given to us and we posses them. Think of the service gifts and the preaching/teaching gift. When the pastor delivers a message does he stand and wait for it to happen? No he studies through the week, prays for guidence in topic perhaps, but he works on the message. He is gifted by God to gather and present a message. How about the administraion gift. Does the elder that oversees the finances of the church only able to take on that task at certain times when God energizes his gift, again, No, it does not work that way. All the gifts are the same in that respect, Tongues sayers, could speak another persons language whenever THEY wanted. They would do so to share the Gospel in a language they did not know. Probably most of the times to Jewish folks but for sure with people from the "house of Isreal" present. Please understand that fact about the spiritual gifts as you pray whether tongues really is a gift for Christians now.

In Christ,
Brian

 

No I am assuming you believe you are seeking the Holy Spirit but are being deceived by another, otherwise you would be more willing to justify your experience from the Word of God.

This is why you are so easily deceived. There is no need to ask him to clarify what He has already said. Once you reject what was already spoken and harden your heart to that truth and continue to seek something that isn't real, then the deceptive spirit steps right up and convinces you that it is from God.

There is no need for further clarification. God's Word tells us all we need to know. When the Spirit of God enters a believer and leads them into all truth, that truth always is in unison with God's Word, not conflicting or adding to it.

Let me remind you that you say we should study our Bible yet you say it isn't necessary to support what you are teaching. That is nothing more than empty words.

I find it interesting that Paul warned us that we must believe the gospel that he preached and that anyone who preached another gospel should be eternally cursed.

Because I am believing the gospel that is taught in the NT.

I am resting in Christ's full rest, not a day of the week that was only symbolic of that rest.

If you are so adamant that your spirit baptism encourages you to read the Bible, why do you keep refusing to use it to justify that same Baptism? Why haven't you acknowledged the fact that Peter did that very thing on Pentecost? What do you have to say to that?

If you truly have arousing sermons that make you study God's Word, why do you seem to be ignorant of what it says? In the last post I showed you a few areas in which your statements blatantly contradicted the Word of God. What have you to say to those scriptures?

I am still waiting for answers, are you going to address them or not?

~Lorelei

[ February 17, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

Is this the 'test' that you were talking about?

MEE