Tongues

[Briguy]

Hi Brian,
you wrote: ""I have asked this time and time again and still have not received an answer. Were the tongues spoken on the day of pentecost spoken to break a language barrier?""

The answer is No. I do believe I answered that before. The tongues were spoken as a fulfilment of what Isaiah said in Isaiah 28. They were a sign to the people of Isreal that they were going to come under God's judgement, again, and that the result would be their loss of land, i.e the destruction of the nation of Isreal. Just because tongues can also edify the body does not change there purpose. There, no you can't say the question was not answered.

Brian as to your answer of my question about us having to wait on God to power up a gift we alredy had. That utterance verse just does not cut it considering there are gifts of helps, goverments, etc... Please try to answer my question again, keeping in mind the variety of gifts God gives to equip the local assembly. Thanks much.

BTW, you have a great name!!

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[MEE]

Briguy:

Please check your PM!

MEE

 

[DHK]

When someone asks me what I’d be if I wasn’t a Baptist, I usually answer them: “I’d be ashamed.” We have a person in our church who came to the Lord by just reading the Bible, and not being swayed by any outside forces our people. That is what his testimony is. And guess what? He is a Baptist. That is all a Baptist is: a Bible-believer.

The salvation message is very simple: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” But there is more to the Bible then just the message of salvation. In fact, when Jesus last appeared to his disciples, his last words to them are found in the Great Commission in Mat.28:19,20:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
“Go and teach,” literally, “go and disciple,” or go and make disciples of all men. Salvation is not enough. They were commanded by the Lord to go: get the message of salvation out, baptize those who received that message (were saved), teach them some more (disciple them), which included organizing those baptized believers into local churches. And then they were still to continue to teach the “all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”

Now spiritual gifts were not part of the Great Commission. Discipleship was, however. Concerning spiritual gifts we need to keep in mind a couple of important facts:
1. They were supernatural, and
2. They were gifts.
It is important to consider these two points. All the gifts that are mentioned in 1Cor.12 were both supernatural and they were gifts. Those two characteristics make them very much different than anything that any person now experiences today. They were gifts, and supernatural gifts, given for first century Christians. Take for example some of the lesser discussed gifts such as the gift of helps. What was the gift of helps, and is it in existence today? The answer to the latter part of the question is no it is not inexistence today, and one of the reasons why is because it was a supernatural gift. What does it take for someone to stop and change a tire for a person, to take flowers to a sick person in the hospital, to babysit for a busy mother, to run some errands for someone else, to cut the neighbor’s grass or shovel the snow off his driveway? If a person does those kind of things in this day and age, does he have the “gift of helps?” No, of course not; he is just being the kind, considerate person that Jesus taught us to be. It doesn’t take a gift to be kind, or to help. Anyone can help. You don’t need a supernatural gift to help. So then, what is the “gift of helps?”

All the gifts were supernatural. All of them were gifts, not just talents. In some way this gift was given to some members of the church as a supernatural gift, to help others in a way that they would not otherwise have been able to.
Likewise, the gift of faith. Most western Christians don’t know what it is to live by faith. Most of you have a steady income, a roof over your head, the necessities of life, etc. If you had to go an hour without electricity, you would be suffering (I know, I would—it is minus 31 tonight). To step out on faith and trust God to meet your needs in almost every aspect of your life, is mostly unknown among western Christians. We have what we want because we live in an affluent society. Many of the first century Christians were given a gift of faith—faith by which to trust God to provide for their needs, to answer prayers, faith for God to lead them in miraculous ways. Their lives would stand out a bit differently because they had been given a supernatural gift of faith. No one has this gift today. Many people live by faith today. There are a great many people that step out and live by faith today. Faith is present today. But back then God had given to some a special, supernatural gift of faith.

And so we can go through the entire list of gifts the same way. I just took those two gifts and used them as an example. The plainly teaches that prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge have ceased. All the spiritual gifts have ceased. They were given for a temporary period of time; that time has passed.
Some people are still trying to duplicate the Day of Pentecost. The Day of Pentecost was a one time event, never again to be repeated in history. I don’t see cloven tongues of fire hovering over peoples heads along with mighty rushing winds, in churches that speak in tongues today. I wonder why? Could it be that tongues have ceased? Yes, most certainly! And not only tongues have ceased; so have all the other gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

DHK, I really think we are closer on this gift thing than you think. I do believe that the "supernatural" element of the "gifts" are gone. But, The same God that equiped the early assemblies also equips the modern assembly. It is not a mistake that you are a pastor and "teach" people. It also is not just luck that you have a variety of elders with different abilities. What I believe God does with the church in this dispensation, in 2003 is this. When a person gets saved, The Holy Spirit indwells them. God knows what assembly or assemblies they will be part of in their christian walk and gives "gifts" that fit. The "gifts" equate to special desires and abilities, many times using the natural personality qualities of the person, but not always. Knew a pastor af a 4000 person church that said until he got saved he was very afraid of public speaking and still was very very shy. He said God made him a preacher and so he preaches. He said he is totally comfortable exercising his gift but is still very fearful of any other public speaking. Anyway, you get the point. "Gifts" (we are a snowflake of gifts) are in us and part of us and not distinguisable from us (ourself). They are not supernatural in their presentaion as they were in the early assemblies, but I believe God still puts together equiped assemblies and full "bodies" today. God bless you brother DHK for your faithfulness, and your gifts .

In Christ,
Brian

 

[ONENESS]

Originally Posted by 3AngelsMom

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

The Someone that should show us, is the Holy Spirit. The Eunich didn't need Phillip to guide him, he needed someone to tell him WHO the passage was talking about.

The someone is the Holy Ghost. But we need men and woman (like Phillip)who are sensitive to the Holy Ghost so the Holy Ghost can move through them.

The Eunuch did need some one to guide him or the Eunuch would not have said so (Acts 8:31). When I say “Guide” I mean it as it is meant in the bible. The Eunuch needed Guidance in the Scripture so Phillip led him and revealed to him what the scripture was speaking of.

I’m not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me? What are you doing? Haha

Now, was it because the Eunich couldn't understand, or was it because he had not HEARD of Jesus?

Probably a little bit of both.

Common people did not posses copies of the Bible.

Umm…I don’t think anyone possessed copies of the bible back then seeing that the first bible was not printed until 1488 A.D. by John Gutenberg.

NOW, WHY did Phillip ask the Eunich if he understood what he was reading? Was it some kind of cryptic passage? NO. It was about the Messiah.

So are you saying that if someone in the middle of nowhere found a bible and read everything the bible said about Jesus they would understand it all?

In this specific instance we see, that this man needed someone to help him understand WHO this passage was talking about. Why? Because he had not heard of Jesus. How do we know that?

So what if this person in the middle of nowhere who only had a bible never heard of God? How would they understand page one?

You see all these are “What ifs” and “What do you think” questions. Regardless of the questions asked no matter who has a bible, if they have a desire to know the Truth, God will send them someone. Now, if the person desires the truth, but rejects it when it comes, the folly is on them.

And HERE is the key. He wanted to KNOW who Isaiah was talking about. He didn't need anyone to explain the text to him. He knew it was talking about Someone who would save the world, but he didn't know who it was.

Again, the person in the middle of no where would still need to know who Jesus is. Not everyone who has a bible understands it.

We see, that the prerequisite for Baptism is BELIEVING

I could bring up a lot on the subject of baptism but this is not the proper thread.

So we see here, that the intent of this incident was not to show that people need help from other men to understand the Bible (that wouldn't work, because WHO told the FIRST person what it means?) but that this particular man needed someone to tell him that the Messiah had come.

This is where you are wrong. The first person to tell someone what it means was Jesus. He told the Apostles in the Gospels, The Apostles Fulfilled it in Acts, and the Apostles wrote about what Jesus taught them in the Epistles. God did not leave man hanging.

Now look I’m not saying that someone cant find salvation with the bible alone. I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying that most everyone is going to need someone to guide them through the scriptures to show them what the scripture is talking about.

The Eunich was being guided by the Holy Spirit to ASK who this passage was about. THAT is why the Spirit sent Phillip, because the Eunich was asking for God to show him WHO this passage was about. There is a HUGE difference in another MAN guiding your understanding, and the Holy Spirit guiding your understanding.

Let me also offer this: You do know what it means to be a Eunuch don’t you? For a sake of a red face I will let you study up on it if you don’t. LOL

But anyway it was written in the Law that if any man was wounded in the stones could not enter in to the congregation of the Lord (Deut 23:1). Isaiah also prophesied about these people in Isaiah 56:1-5 and told them that to the Eunuch would be given a Name that was better than the Sons and Daughters. Acts 8 is the fulfillment of Isa 56. Just another indication that The Gospel is for everyone today, not just the Jews.

So that was really the main purpose of the story of the Eunuch.


Brian

 

[Singer]

(Oneness - Quote)

I could bring up a lot on the subject of baptism but this is not the proper thread.


(Singer)

Actually the baptism of the H.S. and baptism are a part of this thread. Feel
free to adlib where they compare. My issue was over the
baptism of the H.S.
Thanks

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Singer:
(Oneness - Quote)

I could bring up a lot on the subject of baptism but this is not the proper thread.


(Singer)

Actually the baptism of the H.S. and baptism are a part of this thread. Feel
free to adlib where they compare. My issue was over the
baptism of the H.S.
Thanks

Hey singer...Not sure you and I have chatted before but I have seen you post a bit.

Conserning baptism, 3AM brought up something about water baptism and that is what I was referring to when I said "Baptism".

God bless

 

[hrhema]

DHK and BRIGUY: You consistently fail to prove that the gifts have ceased scripturally. Anyone can take a scripture out of context. Both of you believe the Bible is that which is perfect well guys this may come as a shock to you but the Bible we have today is not perfect.

There are scriptures that are missing and there are those that have been added that was not in the original manuscripts. This makes the Bible less than perfect so you are going to have to come up with some thing better than the Bible.

Briguy: I cannot help it if you have not had any personal experiences with people being given the gift of tongues that the person speaking them did not know what they were saying but a person who was listening knew exactly what they were saying.
I have heard this many times and no they both were not Pentecostal so it was not a hoax.

I personally knew a woman of Japanese descent Jenny (was her American name) that testified that the reason she became Pentecostal was that she came to a service as a Buddhist and a woman was used in the gift of tongues. She gave a message in tongues and the church thought she had missed God because there was no interpretation but you see the supernatural message was for Jenny.

Jenny said the message was that God was the true God not Buddha and that he had sent his son to die on a cross for her salvation. She said she heard the gospel in Japanese through this woman.
Jenny thought the woman probably had been a missionary to Japan so after the service she approached the woman and asked her if she had been a missionary in Japan. The woman told her no. She asked her then to explain to her how she could speak perfect Japanese and the woman told her she did not know what she was talking about. Then Jenny told her that the woman had given her to gospel message in perfect Japanese. When Jenny realized this woman could not speak one word of Japanese the fear of the Lord came upon her and she gave her heart to Jesus Christ.
After her conversion she was given an explanation about tongues and interpretation and shortly thereafter she stood and told the church that
she came to the Lord because someone was willing to be used of God in the Gifts.

I have heard and have witnessed these things many times. Is this just coincidence. No.

Please explain to me how at 15 years old when I knelt beside a chair and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior that I immediately began to speak in tongues. Was I raised Pentecostal. No. I was a baptist. Did I know what tongues were. Absolutely not. You might say they were of the Devil but why would the Devil bother with a 15 year old kid and why would the devil change me.
Why would the Devil give me a new heart?

If the gift of prophecy is done away with then why is it that every time this gift comes upon me the things I prophecy come to pass?

Am I like the Charismatics who run around prophesying all the time. No. What they do is wrong but that is between them and God. I won't touch them. Do I run around speaking in tongues all the time? No. That is absurd.

I know cessasionists don't like personal experiences but they outweigh non experiences.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
The someone is the Holy Ghost. But we need men and women (like Phillip)who are sensitive to the Holy Ghost so the Holy Ghost can move through them.

The Eunuch did need some one to guide him or the Eunuch would not have said so (Acts 8:31). When I say “Guide” I mean it as it is meant in the bible. The Eunuch needed Guidance in the Scripture so Phillip led him and revealed to him what the scripture was speaking of.

I’m not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me? What are you doing? Haha

Probably a little of both!

I'd have to say that I agree that the man did need Phillip to guide him, based on the passage, but the WHY is what I disagree on. It isn't a cryptic passage. It is about someone that the man had never heard of. Phillip was needed so that the man could hear about Jesus. Which is who Isaiah was prophecying about.

Umm…I don’t think anyone possessed copies of the bible back then seeing that the first bible was not printed until 1488 A.D. by John Gutenberg.

Then WHAT was he reading?

So are you saying that if someone in the middle of nowhere found a bible and read everything the bible said about Jesus they would understand it all?

They would. They have. It is amazing how the Holy Spirit fulfills the promise of Jesus. He will GUIDE you into all TRUTH.

So what if this person in the middle of nowhere who only had a bible never heard of God? How would they understand page one?

They would know that He is Who made them. What a wonderful realization that would be for someone who has never heard of God. Wouldn't you think? Finally knowing where you came from!

You see all these are “What ifs” and “What do you think” questions. Regardless of the questions asked no matter who has a bible, if they have a desire to know the Truth, God will send them someone. Now, if the person desires the truth, but rejects it when it comes, the folly is on them.

AHA! Here is the key. HOW do you know that the 'person' who comes to you is telling you truth? You WEIGH it against scripture. Now here is where we get the mess we have today, people are not weighing it against scriputure, they are weighing it against the preconceived ideals that are set forth from the doctrines that they have been taught by 'learned' men.

Again, the person in the middle of no where would still need to know who Jesus is. Not everyone who has a bible understands it.

Why is that? Is the Bible NOT able to do the job alone, without man's teaching? How can they HEAR unless they have a preacher? (you're shouting amen now right?) That isn't all that verse says. It GOES on to say, HOW can preach UNLESS HE IS SENT. By who? The Holy Spirit. Being in a pulpit doesn't qualify someone to be a bearer of truth. That is a man made misconception. Those who are sent by God, to preach the Gospel, do it IN SEASON, and OUT OF SEASON. Which to me means 'when it's convenient' and 'when it's inconvenient'.

This is where you are wrong. The first person to tell someone what it means was Jesus. He told the Apostles in the Gospels, The Apostles Fulfilled it in Acts, and the Apostles wrote about what Jesus taught them in the Epistles. God did not leave man hanging.

UH, let's see, last I checked the Gospels, and Epistles are IN THE BIBLE. That is WHAT we are talking about here. THE BIBLE. If a man finds a bible in the middle of nowhere, and no one else saw him, did he really find it?

Sorry. We have EVERY Word necessary for the Salvation of the soul, the understanding of the nature of God, and what happens to you when you die, and what will happen in the end, all in 66 books. It doesn't take a genius to figure out Salvation. You can read JUST the NT and get ALL you would need to know to be saved. I have known people who were given pocket NT's and came to Christ, simply by reading it. The Word of God is POWERFUL.

Now look I’m not saying that someone cant find salvation with the bible alone. I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying that most everyone is going to need someone to guide them through the scriptures to show them what the scripture is talking about.

But that wouldn't be about Salvation, that you think they need guidance on. You are thinking of OTHER things when you say that, are you not?

No one has answered my original question. If someone found a Bible, and no one told them what to think about it, and they read the whole thing, what denomination would their beliefs best agree with? No outside infuluences. Ever. They read the whole thing, and studied for years. What church would they fit it at?

Let me also offer this: You do know what it means to be a Eunuch don’t you? For a sake of a red face I will let you study up on it if you don’t. LOL

Uh, yeah. Although I don't blush very easily.

But anyway it was written in the Law that if any man was wounded in the stones could not enter in to the congregation of the Lord (Deut 23:1). Isaiah also prophesied about these people in Isaiah 56:1-5 and told them that to the Eunuch would be given a Name that was better than the Sons and Daughters. Acts 8 is the fulfillment of Isa 56. Just another indication that The Gospel is for everyone today, not just the Jews.

So then we see more than one purpose for this account. Good point. I never thought of it that way.

In summary, the point is, that God doesn't need man in order to get the Word out. He said that if man fails, the ROCKS would cry out. We should all stop preaching for a while, and see if we can get that to happen

That would be so cool.

It is very possible for a man to have the Word of God, now that it is complete, and know God, and understand His ways, through the guidance of only the Holy Spirit.

Keep in mind, the NT hadn't been written yet, and the Eunich was unaware of the Messiah being sent.

Do you think that if he was someone living today, he would have read Isaiah and said to himself 'who the heck is that talking about'?

Not likely. I am confident, that just about every man, woman, and most children in the world today have at least HEARD of Jesus, if not KNOW about Him.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
DHK and BRIGUY: You consistently fail to prove that the gifts have ceased scripturally. Anyone can take a scripture out of context. Both of you believe the Bible is that which is perfect well guys this may come as a shock to you but the Bible we have today is not perfect.

This is not true. I have given ample evidence both Scripturally, contextually, from the Greek, historically, and from others' experience how tongues is not for today. There have been dozens of threads on tongues since the inception of this board. Throughout its history I have quoted extensively on this subject, and just on this thread also there is much information given. If you desire me to give you a much more detailed explanation I will do that. But if you go back and read the past 24 pages I think you will find it there. You have not quoted so much Scriptue as you have experience. You fail in that you establish what you believe not by Scripture, but by experience. My answer: So what!

I can come back and counter all of your experiences with at least five to one. For instance, Mormons speak in tongues. Hindus speak in tongues. So called Christians speak in tongues in another language saying "I love the devil," over and over again. A Baptist missionary went to Haiti and ministered among some Voo-doo worshippers for some time. Many of them got saved. After some time the missionary had to return. A Pentecostal missionary eventually went to the same place and tried to establish a work there. When he tried to win these people to the Lord, and tell them that they had to speak in tongues, they got upset with him, and would have nothing to do with him. They told him: "Why should we listen to you! That is what we did before we were saved!!" Voo-doo worshippers, Satan worshippers, Hindus, Mormons, all speak in tongues, and you say this is evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit!! You still say this is an experience from God. If it is experiences that you want I will relate plenty of them to you. We do not establish our doctrine on experience. We establish doctrine on the Word of God. I can demonstrate through Scripture that tongues have ceased. But will you believe it? Probably not. I cannot demonstrate through Scripture that Christ rose from the dead. But will you...???? What is the difference? The difference is people today want to be carnal and hang on to some tangible emotional experience that they think makes them more holy. The truth is most of them are more carnal.

There are scriptures that are missing and there are those that have been added that was not in the original manuscripts. This makes the Bible less than perfect so you are going to have to come up with some thing better than the Bible.

This only shows your lack of knowledge in the area of the study of the Bible and how we got the Bible. Here is a website that can be of help to you:
http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles.html

Briguy: I cannot help it if you have not had any personal experiences with people being given the gift of tongues that the person speaking them did not know what they were saying but a person who was listening knew exactly what they were saying.
I have heard this many times and no they both were not Pentecostal so it was not a hoax.

You have heard of this, or were there when it actually happened? And yes, most are unverified, and most are found to be hoaxes when researched. There is good reason for healthy skepticism.

I personally knew a woman of Japanese descent Jenny (was her American name) that testified that the reason she became Pentecostal was that she came to a service as a Buddhist and a woman was used in the gift of tongues. She gave a message in tongues and the church thought she had missed God because there was no interpretation but you see the supernatural message was for Jenny.

Jenny said the message was that God was the true God not Buddha and that he had sent his son to die on a cross for her salvation. She said she heard the gospel in Japanese through this woman.
Jenny thought the woman probably had been a missionary to Japan so after the service she approached the woman and asked her if she had been a missionary in Japan. The woman told her no. She asked her then to explain to her how she could speak perfect Japanese and the woman told her she did not know what she was talking about. Then Jenny told her that the woman had given her to gospel message in perfect Japanese. When Jenny realized this woman could not speak one word of Japanese the fear of the Lord came upon her and she gave her heart to Jesus Christ.
After her conversion she was given an explanation about tongues and interpretation and shortly thereafter she stood and told the church that
she came to the Lord because someone was willing to be used of God in the Gifts.

"I knew of a woman that testified." Again it is not first hand knowledge that can be verified. Even is this one incident turned out to be true, all it would prove is that God is not above doing miracles today, not that the gift of tongues is for today. This is not the norm, it is the exception.

I have heard and have witnessed these things many times. Is this just coincidence. No.

Are you willing to document each and every instance that you have witnessed, giving the language spoken in, the language interpreted in, credible witnesses who would know that these were actual languages and not just hearsay. "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." Can you do that for us?

Please explain to me how at 15 years old when I knelt beside a chair and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior that I immediately began to speak in tongues. Was I raised Pentecostal. No. I was a baptist. Did I know what tongues were. Absolutely not. You might say they were of the Devil but why would the Devil bother with a 15 year old kid and why would the devil change me.
Why would the Devil give me a new heart?

Why would the devil bother with anyone. "He is your adversary who roams about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." He may have got you. You had an emotional experience when you were saved. Look well to your salvation. Examine your own self to see whether you are in the faith. The Bible says that. What happened at salvation? Who or what did you trust in? What caused you to speak in tongues? If it wasn't the Holy Spirit, then what was it? I am not saying it was directly the devil; sometimes we are too quick to attribute everything to the devil. Maybe it was just you. As far as a "new heart" is concerned, what do you mean by that? Do you mean a sense of peace? Again you are speaking of emotions and experiences. I know I am saved because of the promises of God, not because of feelings and emotions. The devil can give a false sense of peace too.

If the gift of prophecy is done away with then why is it that every time this gift comes upon me the things I prophecy come to pass?

First, if you had the gift, it wouldn't just come upon you. You would have it--All of the time. But you don't have it. You have a Satanic imitation. And if but one prophecy fails, by Old Testament law you should be taken out and stoned to death. You had better be honest with yourself and with your words.

Am I like the Charismatics who run around prophesying all the time. No. What they do is wrong but that is between them and God. I won't touch them. Do I run around speaking in tongues all the time? No. That is absurd.

I know cessasionists don't like personal experiences but they outweigh non experiences.

Nothing outweighs the Word of God--Nothing!! That is what our guideline is. The Bible is our foundaton. It is our rule of faith in all matters. I cannot go by experience or I will fail. That is not to say that we don't have experiences. We all do: experiences of peace, joy, love, etc. The experiences of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. The experiences that come from walking with the Lord. But the supernatural spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. If they haven't, then explain this one thing to me. Why won't a so-called faith healer, who claims to have the gift of healing, go to a hospital, and walk down the corridors healing obvious diseases that one can see with their own eyes? Why won't he spend a day and night in the emergency room healing broken bones, and those banged up in car accidents? The reason: they all, without exception are frauds. They cannot do it. The spiritual gifts have ceased. If they haven't, then prove it through the gift of healing in a way that is demonstrable. Jesus healed ALL that came to him. Faith healers don't. In fact, experience tells me they don't heal any.
DHK

 

[ONENESS]

[/QUOTE]Originally Posted by 3AngelsMom[/quote]

Let me first say that I think you and I are pretty much in agreement for the majority.

Then WHAT was he reading?

Well we know it was not the bible b/c the Bible was not printed until 1488. So what was it?

Jesus said “These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the LAW OF MOSES, and in the PROPHETS and in the PSALMS concerning me.

So we know they had available to them the Law (1st Five books of the Bible). The Prophets (Major and Minor “Isaiah-Malachi”). And we know they had the Psalms available to them..

So we can know that they had scribes, scripture, and scrolls. It is much like the Old Testament that we read. But not laid out in Chapter and Verse and so on.

They would know that He is Who made them. What a wonderful realization that would be for someone who has never heard of God. Wouldn't you think? Finally knowing where you came from!

I don’t know about you but if it was 2020, and I lived out in the middle of nowhere, and if I picked up a book entitled “Bible” and started reading on page one. And I if I got to the part that said it had never rained before (Gen 2:5), I believe I would quit reading.

AHA! Here is the key. HOW do you know that the 'person' who comes to you is telling you truth? You WEIGH it against scripture. Now here is where we get the mess we have today, people are not weighing it against scriputure, they are weighing it against the preconceived ideals that are set forth from the doctrines that they have been taught by 'learned' men.

Very well said.

Why is that? Is the Bible NOT able to do the job alone, without man's teaching? How can they HEAR unless they have a preacher? (you're shouting amen now right?) That isn't all that verse says. It GOES on to say, HOW can preach UNLESS HE IS SENT. By who? The Holy Spirit

You are contradicting your self now. Do we need a preacher or not? Do we need guidance or not?

Listen I understand that the Holy Spirit is the One who leads.

But Jesus himself said Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As I said before, there will be some that find it all on there own. But in a lot of cases some one is going to have to be shown.

We have EVERY Word necessary for the Salvation of the soul, the understanding of the nature of God, and what happens to you when you die, and what will happen in the end, all in 66 books. It doesn't take a genius to figure out Salvation. You can read JUST the NT and get ALL you would need to know to be saved. I have known people who were given pocket NT's and came to Christ, simply by reading it. The Word of God is POWERFUL.

Just the New Testament alone is all we need? Ma’am, if you and I are studying calculus, we need to make sure we know how to add and subtract first. Wouldn’t you agree? The bible says Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Without the OT we cannot have a proper understanding of who Jesus is. With out the OT we get misconceptions of Who God is.

Can Man live on bread alone? NO! Jesus said It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God (Luke 4:4).

But that wouldn't be about Salvation, that you think they need guidance on. You are thinking of OTHER things when you say that, are you not?

No I am speaking of Salvation. Half the people on this board can’t even agree on what it means to be born again. John 3 lets us know we need to be and Acts 2 lets us know how.

No one has answered my original question. If someone found a Bible, and no one told them what to think about it, and they read the whole thing, what denomination would their beliefs best agree with? No outside infuluences. Ever. They read the whole thing, and studied for years. What church would they fit it at?

Hopefully they would be apart of the Apostolic Faith. That means Believing, Obeying, and fulfilling everything the Apostles taught. That includes speaking in tongues.

In summary, the point is, that God doesn't need man in order to get the Word out

In summary God DOES NOT need man to get the Word out, BUT that is how God has chose to do so. Just look at Jesus, that’s all he did was “Get the Word out”. And HE is our ultimate example.

Jesus said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled (Luke 14:23).

It is very possible for a man to have the Word of God, now that it is complete, and know God, and understand His ways, through the guidance of only the Holy Spirit.

It is very possible. But it does not happen to often. Remember “Few there be that find it” (Matt 7:14)

Do you think that if he was someone living today, he would have read Isaiah and said to himself 'who the heck is that talking about'?

If I had read that today and had not read the NT I would have no Idea who it was referring to.

Not likely. I am confident, that just about every man, woman, and most children in the world today have at least HEARD of Jesus, if not KNOW about Him

And here is where the problem lies. Almost everyone in the World has heard about Jesus and know about him. But that is not enough. We need to KNOW Him. And more importantly he needs to know us.

You see it is very easy for us today here in the United States to know and even believe that Jesus is God. But many moons ago way before a little baby lay wrapped in swaddling clothes A Clarion Call came from Heaven and said “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isa 9:6).

That Call was rejected by almost a whole nation. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not (John 1:10-11).

The first thing that Jesus said to a Pharisee ruler was “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Jesus had a whole congregation he wanted to see saved. But before they could be saved Jesus had to convince those people that he was the Son of God, the Messiah.

So we find Jesus standing in front of one Pharisee crying “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In a nut shell believing in Jesus or knowing Jesus is all one needs to do to be saved. But if we stop at just believing in Jesus or just knowing who he is, he is eventually going to say “Depart from me for I never KNEW you”

Finally John 3:5-8 says Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus just let us know that when the wind blows you cant see, you cant tell where is coming from, and you can’t tell where it’s going. But he did say that you would hear the sound there of. And he went on to say “So is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

3AM, I know you don’t believe tongues are for us today. But on the Day or Pentecost there were 120 people that were filled with the Holy Ghost. When it came they all spoke in tongues (Acts 2:1-4). When the Holy Ghost came the Jews knew it b/c how? “For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.”

When someone is born of the Spirit it’s going to happen just like the wind blows. You cant see, you cant tell where is coming from and where it is going but you will be able to hear the sound there of.

God bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Let me first say that I think you and I are pretty much in agreement for the majority.

That's always nice!

It is much like the Old Testament that we read. But not laid out in Chapter and Verse and so on.

I think that all of that goes without saying! I thought you were trying to say that he wasn't reading the Bible. It was still the Bible back then, it just wasn't called that!

I don’t know about you but if it was 2020, and I lived out in the middle of nowhere, and if I picked up a book entitled “Bible” and started reading on page one. And I if I got to the part that said it had never rained before (Gen 2:5), I believe I would quit reading.

Really? I would want to read more to find out who the whacko's were who thought it hadn't rained yet! lol

You are contradicting your self now. Do we need a preacher or not? Do we need guidance or not?

No, I was playing 'devils advocate' again. Of course we need preachers, but my statement just before that must be PART of that for it to work. The Preachers MUST be sent by the Holy Spirit (like Phillip) and the laity must WEIGH for themselves not only the doctrines but the character of that person against the whole of scripture, before we take their words seriously.

Listen I understand that the Holy Spirit is the One who leads.

But Jesus himself said Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As I said before, there will be some that find it all on there own. But in a lot of cases some one is going to have to be shown.

What does 'few' mean to you? Would you characterize the Catholic faith as being a group who 'found' the narrow gate? Cuz there's like a billion of them.

Just the New Testament alone is all we need? Ma’am, if you and I are studying calculus, we need to make sure we know how to add and subtract first. Wouldn’t you agree?

Absolutely. I am going to snip the rest of this sermon, because brother, you are preaching to the chior!

No I am speaking of Salvation. Half the people on this board can’t even agree on what it means to be born again. John 3 lets us know we need to be and Acts 2 lets us know how.

Why do you think that is? Could it be because they have been misGUIDED by men?

Hopefully they would be a part of the Apostolic Faith. That means Believing, Obeying, and fulfilling everything the Apostles taught. That includes speaking in tongues.

Now, why just what the Apostles taught? What the rest of the Bible? (you seemed to like the rest of it a minute ago). What about their example?

Is not EXAMPLE a greater teacher than spoken words?

BUT that is how God has chose to do so. Just look at Jesus, that’s all he did was “Get the Word out”. And HE is our ultimate example.

I wouldn't say that was all He did. But I will agree that He is our ultimate example. Case and point, that is WHY I think the Sabbath is for all people. Because JESUS enjoyed it.

It is very possible. But it does not happen too often. Remember “Few there be that find it” (Matt 7:14)

I know someone who did, and I did.

If I had read that today and had not read the NT I would have no Idea who it was referring to.

Really? When was the first time you actually read the NT? Had you not heard of Jesus before that?

And here is where the problem lies. Almost everyone in the World has heard about Jesus and know about him. But that is not enough. We need to KNOW Him. And more importantly he needs to know us.

I agree. How do you think He KNOW'S us? Don't you think He know's EVERYONE? Every hair on their head, every freckle? Every deed, done in secret, and in the light? God will say depart from Me YOU WHO DID INIQUITY, for I never knew you. The reason, He must say this, is not because they never spoke in tongues (that is sick and twisted), but because they were workers of INIQUITY. Why does He say He never knew them? Because of 2 very simple concepts that I feel are best conveyed from the Word:

1 Jn 4:7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

HOW is that Love manefested in us?

9. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

His love is perfected in us by LOVING one another.

13. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

The HOLY SPIRIT is how we know that WE dwell IN Him, and He in US. If we have the Holy Spirit, then HE knows us.

14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

So we see, here, the same coorelation, that it is through CONFESSION of Jesus, that one is saved by. NOT TONGUES.

16. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

We don't have anything to worry about in the day of Judgment, because God's love is made perfect in us. HOW? By dwelling in Him, and He in us, through the Holy Spirit, by confession of faith in Jesus.

18. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This is one of my favorites because it reminds me of how fearful I was of hell before God showed me His true plan for the wicked. Any 'work' on my part prior to the time that I actually surrendered my whole heart to God (in accordance with the first of the 2 greatest commandments)was done out of fear of hell, and what does fear have? Torment. When we are made perfect in Christ's love, there will not be any fear, because we will be in Him, and He in us, and we will know Him, and He us, and the TRUTH will be manefested in us through the work of the Holy Spirit.

19. We love him, because he first loved us.

Even in our love for Him, He started it!

20. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Here we see a DIRECT reference to the Ten Commandments. You can SAY you love God (not an idolater,or blasphemer, or Sabbath breaker), but you then hate your brother (murder, lies, adultery, lust, disobedient to parents, thief) then that makes you a LIAR, because you CANNOT love God, AND hate your brother at the same time. YOU CAN'T. When God's love is perfected in you, you will by NATURE be in obedience to His commandments.

21. And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

And there is the summation. Love God, Love your brother.

How?

Love God: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Love God: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Love God: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
LOVE God: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Love Man: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
Love Man: Thou shalt not kill.
Love Man: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Love Man: Thou shalt not steal.
Love Man: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Love Man: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

John 14:15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Love God. Keep His Commandments. LOVE is the fulfilling of the Law. That is the only way someone can keep the Law, through LOVE that is manefested in them BY the Holy Spirit.

3AM, I know you don’t believe tongues are for us today.

Why do you keep saying that? I never said that. I don't think that what YOU and the rest of the MAJORITY of Christians in the world today are doing, is what the Bible teaches on tongues.

When someone is born of the Spirit it’s going to happen just like the wind blows. You cant see, you cant tell where is coming from and where it is going but you will be able to hear the sound there of.

When someone is born of the Spirit? So now EVERYONE must speak in tongues? Have you ever read the Pauline epistles? Tongues is the LEAST of the gifts. IF, and only IF tongues were used as a sign of 'being born of the Spirit' then WHY didn't the Apostles speak in tongues when Jesus breathed on them?

Think about that.

God Bless

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by hrhema:

If the gift of prophecy is done away with then why is it that every time this gift comes upon me the things I prophecy come to pass?

Am I like the Charismatics who run around prophesying all the time. No. What they do is wrong but that is between them and God. I won't touch them. Do I run around speaking in tongues all the time? No. That is absurd.

I know cessasionists don't like personal experiences but they outweigh non experiences. [/QB]

hrhema, I just can't but wonder why you seem to believe in "speaking in tongues" but say that you won't touch a Charismatic. May I ask why?

I can see that you don't possibly agree with their way of worship, but what is wrong with them, as just people?

You have mentioned this several times. BTW, I'm not a Charismatic.

Just curious,
MEE

 

[Singer]

Wow....interesting posts I'm sure. I'll need a little time to digest them.
Have a busy weekend performing in the bars. Pray that I can get a few
words in for the Lord....between the Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings
numbers. (A White Sport Coat ...Anyone) ? Distraught that friend
Raymond died suddenly. He was a fan of Lawrence Welk and he
made me a hatband for my black stetson. I glued a big cross on
top of it...........loved the guy. Age 78. Sat on the corner
stool everytime I was there. Danced just a month ago. Not an avid
talker, but the conversations turned to heaven more than once.

Has anyone ever noticed that the most unlikely individuals have a deep
desire to discuss salvation. The bars draw people with personal problems
and many will visit about the Lord. I've seen more tears in the bars than
in church. Feelings....? Oh yes. Joy is a feeling . Sorrow is a feeling.

The downhearted are those who are in a position to accept the Lord. They
don't usually take their problems to church....but church can come to them !

Good input here....I'll be back.
God Bless,
Singer

 

[3AngelsMom]

Singer:
"I've seen more tears in the bars than
in church."

That's because you go to bars more than you go to church silly!

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Ouch. 3AM

Singer, For all these things do the nations of the world seek after. Luke 12:30

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Luke 15:7

Laurenda

 

[3AngelsMom]

Wisdom Seeker,

That isn't an insult. Our friend Singer, doesn't take part in corporate Worship.

It is true. He is in bars witnessing more often than he is in a church building!

Which I am sure God sees as a very good thing that he is out witnessing in the same way Jesus did, right there along side where the sinners are.

He knows I wasn't being ugly.

God Bless

 

[Singer]

That's right, Laurenda, 3AM and I have a good understanding. (I think).
She accepts me as I am (I hope) and approves (LOL) of the works (vanity)
that I do (attempt) for the Gospel. She agrees with (twist arm) the fact
that the Holy Spirit within us as believers (any denomination) is the basis
of salvation. (Instantly upon death

...)

I was a regular churchgoer for the first 14 years of my life, took a 5
year break and then joined a group that was training for the slaughter
of humans. Little fulfillment was obtained there, and then I moved on
to another 30 years of constant churchgoing. The last five years have
been spent putting to use what I've learned about witnessing.
They don't let me speak/preach in churches, so I take the message of
Jesus to the bars where I frequent for a reason. Did you ever notice
the lack of interest when you try to talk of the Gospel / Jesus / God
during a church dinner. . . ?

Just this morning I'm in awe that two of the most unlikely individuals
I encountered in the bar last night (two separate circumstances)
brought the discussion to Christ with their mention of the Silver
Cross that I have glued to my Stetson hat. There's real need there;
sincerity, openness and a strengthening friendship, trust and a
working of the Holy Spirit. I've not seen a convert or a tear shed in
the 30 years of church, but have listened to heartache, shared
burdens and encouraged many in the promises of Jesus.

"Come unto me ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest"

"I come that ye might have life and have it more abundantly "

Luke 12:30 seems to fall on the heels of previous verses dealing with
concerns for life's basis sustenances. Is that how you meant it, Laurenda.?

It doesn't seem to say that the nations of the world are seeking after
unrighteousness.

Singer

 

[Briguy]

hrhema writes:
""DHK and BRIGUY: You consistently fail to prove that the gifts have ceased scripturally. Anyone can take a scripture out of context. Both of you believe the Bible is that which is perfect well guys this may come as a shock to you but the Bible we have today is not perfect.""

H, you are wrong about my position. DHK and I believe the same about tongues but differ on the subject of spiritual gifts, somewhat anyway. I have already said in this thread that the "perfect" is the "eternal state". Historically that will be the kingdom age, personally that would be when we die. To be "perfect" is to see Jesus "face to face". I believe that the supernatural gifts were to get the church started and that tongues was a sign and ended on their own when what the "sign" was pointed to happened. Go ack and read the thread and you will see that scripture has been used in the issue of tongues. I sometimes jump into threads without reading all the other posts myself, it is very understandable on this thread since it is 24 pages long. Just know that DHK and I disagree somewhat in this one area, otherwise he is right on for everything else .

As DHK said there are a lot of stories out there, most to all are able to be proved wrong. The Bible is clear what the gift of tongues were and that they ceased therefore your experience was probably based on what you had heard or seen in your 15 year life to that point. It was planted in your mind that it "could" happen and it did. The devil may have helped you along or maybe not. When we get saved from Sin as I'm sure you didi, it would be natural to be very emotional. Yuo had emotions not tongues. Please share scripture, one at a time, that verifys your experience and we can exaime whether it really fits for 2003.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Singer]

(3AM)

HOW do you know that the 'person' who comes to you is telling
you truth? You WEIGH it against scripture. Now here is where
we get the mess we have today, people are not weighing it
against scriputure, they are weighing it against the preconceived
ideals that are set forth from the doctrines that they have been
taught by 'learned' men.

(Briguy)

Please share scripture, one at a time, that verifys your experience
and we can exaime whether it really fits for 2003.

(Singer)

Look at those two comments. Scripture is used for reproof,
instruction etc., but where is the rule to apply the workings
of the Holy Spirit. Being too legalistic when it comes to relying
on scripture gives no allowance for the invisible, uncontrollable
daily operations of the Spirit. Why would we even want to
contain it ? Scripture for example does not tell us to
accept the Lord in so many words. We just have to leave
our imagination open to some things.

Miracles are taking place when a person believes, when
love is shared, when people help strangers etc. There is no
scripture to explain that. Define it as love, but that doesn't even seem
to do it justice. There's a feeling, an emotion that is from God that goes
with it. To doubt experience/emotion/feelings is to limit God and
the working of the Holy Spirit. To deny this possibility would
also be to allow for the possibility that satan also infiltrates prayer,
love, kindness and those things that we "do as unto the Lord".

This IS the age of Miracles. When that umbilical cord
breaks and that new baby calf takes his first breath of air......
THAT'S A MIRACLE in my book. To plant a corn seed the size of
a pea into the ground and see it grow into a strong plant is
a miracle. That can neither be explained from the bible nor from
agronomy. We can't duplicate it...we can't duplicate life giving
force. To stand in amazement of the growing calves and
growing corn gives exhilaration that can also not be described
from scripture. Not done in pride....but in awe.

The Song of Solomon attempts to give credit to the joys of
matrimonial connections. Yet there are not words for the
climatical results of intimacy....I think you get what I mean.

Anyhow...........the consummation of marriage cannot be
described. Let me compare that to the experience that I
received when praying for clarification on the baptism of the
Holy Spirit. It cannot be described (even from scripture) but
is no less real or authentically from God. It came about
through prayer and I will not throw those pearls to the swine
(satan). "I know from whence my source cometh". I asked
God for answers....when they come, shall I then give satan
the credit and God the doubt ? C'mon guys.

There is belief and there is worship and there is joy, faith and
charity and we have scripture for more proof, but Jesus can
touch you with intimacy that there are not words to describe.
It does not replace faith nor does it contaminate truth and it
is not described in scripture........but it exists.

Climatical..........Oh ya.!!
Satanic.............Not hardly !!

In God's Love,
Singer