Tongues

[Singer]

That won't work with me Spitfire.

The cult I grew up in quoted the same verses.

Catholics throw those same verses at me.

You as an SDA use those same verses.

*Note

All three mentioned above do not claim the assurance of
salvation while they are alive on this earth.

It's always "I will be saved"....."I am being saved".........."God
will judge us according to our works".

Its a Works based Salvation. I respect you for your belief in the
ressurrection of Jesus. Anything more is works.

Zinger

 

[3AngelsMom]

Singer,

I'll tell you the same thing I told my brother.

If I shot you in the head, would you die?

Or would you be 'saved'?

If a bomb was dropped on the US and destroyed every person here, would you be 'saved' or would you die?

WHAT is it that 'saved' means?

Jesus WILL save us, FROM WHAT? The second death.

That is FUTURE.

I haven't 'been saved' yet because Jesus hasn't HAD to save me.

I have been forgiven. My name is in the book of life. I am a child of God. I am submitted to the Will of God. I have faith in Jesus Christ as my Saviour. FAITH in something I have not SEEN yet, because it hasn't happened yet.

If I can't use a Bible verse 'cuz the cult done it' too, then we may as well quit now, because there is a pretty good chance that just about EVERY thing I will present to you will come out of the good old black cover King James!

It really does sicken me that you have lost so much respect for the Word of God.

You know who that is don't you?

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Ok, I'm following you, but what about the people who were converted by the tongues event?

Also, at what point were the Jews warned about the judgment in 70AD through tongues?

They were warned by Daniel, and also Jesus mentioned it.

How was that not enough?

I am not questioning God on this, I am questioning your understanding.

Would you please clarify?

On the Day of Pentecost, three thousand were saved. They were saved after hearing Peter preach a powerful message that is recorded in verses 14 to 36 of Acts 2. The response to that message:

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
--They were convicted in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. “What shall we do,” they said.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--Those that heard and received his word were saved, and then baptized. They then joined the church. Among all those present on the Day of Pentecost, about 3,000 were saved. They were not saved on account of tongues, but because of the gospel message that Peter preached. He preached Christ crucified and risen again. This is the message that saves. Tongues never saved anyone.

Also, at what point were the Jews warned about the judgment in 70AD through tongues?

I don’t believe that tongues were a specific sign of impending judgement. They were a sign to the unbelieving Jew that this gospel message (the death, burial and resurrection of Christ) was an authentic message from God. It was a message that they needed to believe. Elsewhere in the New Testament we find that Jesus prophesies the destruction and overthrow of Jerusalem.


John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Christ came to His own people, and they rejected Him. Instead of receiving Him as their Messiah they crucified Him out of jealousy and envy. They cried, as he was being judged, “His blood be upon our hands!” And it was. Their city was destroyed in just less than forty years later. Speaking in tongues is not related to this. It is related to the gospel message, and it’s authenticity. They knew that Christ was God by the miracles that He did. They knew this message was of God by the sign of tongues.

1Cor.14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
--Paul explains this clearly in this verse. Even with the sign of tongues present with the message of the gospel, still the Jews would not believe the gospel. Even the sign of tongues would not convince them.
This of course is not talking of all Jews. It is speaking of Jews in general. It is the Jewish nation that crucified Christ, but it is out of the Jewish nation that Christianity arose. Many of the first converts, such as those initial 3,000 were Jews. But most of the Jews remained unsaved. It was an insult to the family name to become a Christian. Christians were despised. They were always in the minority. Those that were saved, were saved because they came under conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit, after hearing the gospel message, and then trusted Christ as their Saviour. Tongues never saved anyone.

If I understand your question correctly, you are quite correct in that the Jews had enough warning about judgement to come. They did not need “tongues,” per se, to warn them against impending judgement. Tongues was a sign, not to warn against judgement, but to authenticate the gospel message that it was from God. That in itself was a warning to believe it.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Thanks DHK!

 

[Briguy]

3AM, I can't add much to what DHK said except that Isaiah 28, that Paul refers to, talks directly of God's judgement and how Isreal would know it was coming. They would know by the tongues of foreigners, or however that is said (mind blank -happens a lot since I turned 40

) DHK did a good job with your question and I don't think what I added disagrees with what he said. Either way tongues were a sign to unbelievers (Isreal's unbelievers).

Thanks as always DHK for your insight. You have quite a gift there

errrr- oops --maybe not

In Christ,
Brian

[ March 12, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Singer,

WHAT is it that 'saved' means?

That is FUTURE.

I haven't 'been saved' yet because Jesus hasn't HAD to save me.

3AMom:

The very next post by DHK quotes the bible in saying that 3,000
were saved in one day. Then they joined the church he says......

First of all.....
1. If the Inspired word of God says people are saved, why can't you ?
Is there a danger in claiming the promises of God ?

2. What church did the 3,000 join. I doubt that it was the SDA or the
Baptist etc.

3. They joined the "body of Christ". (The same as a new convert would
do today. When I accepted the Lord 26 years ago, I didn't automatically
become a member of a church. I never have to this day. That doesn't
mean that I'm not a part of the body of believers. It's just a name anyhow.
Just because you don't own a Cadillac doesn't mean you don't have a car.

4. Catholics would say they would have joined the church that later
became known as the Catholic Church. Ya..Right !

5. Ask yourself.....What did those 3,000 become members of ?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:

Ask yourself.....What did those 3,000 become members of ?

The First Baptist Church of Jerusalem.

DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Singer:
[QB] First of all.....
1. If the Inspired word of God says people are saved, why can't you ?
Is there a danger in claiming the promises of God ?

Are you sure you want to go there?

2. What church did the 3,000 join. I doubt that it was the SDA or the
Baptist etc.

They didn't join they were ADDED. By Jesus. And it didn't say they WERE saved, it said 'such as SHOULD be saved'. Future.

3. They joined the "body of Christ". (The same as a new convert would
do today. When I accepted the Lord 26 years ago, I didn't automatically
become a member of a church. I never have to this day. That doesn't
mean that I'm not a part of the body of believers. It's just a name anyhow.
Just because you don't own a Cadillac doesn't mean you don't have a car.

Well, regardless of your opinion, again the Bible takes presidence. They STAYED together (those belivers) going from house to house, being in 'one accord' (not a cadillac). AND we are also told NOT TO FORSAKE the assembling of ourselves together. So AGAIN, you are wrong. You DO need to go to 'church'. ASSEMBLE.

4. Catholics would say they would have joined the church that later
became known as the Catholic Church. Ya..Right !

5. Ask yourself.....What did those 3,000 become members of ?

The Church of Jesus Christ. The 'ecclesia' of Jesus. THE BODY. The ONE TRUE Church.

Look at what they did. Who does that today?

Is it ONE denomination, with an exclusivist attitude?

Do they have the Apostles doctrines (hmmmmm), breaking bread (hmmmm), and PRAYER.

I'll let you chew on that one.

God Bless

 

[Singer]

Singer asked what the 3,000 joined. 3AM says they were ADDED instead .
As a pun, DHK added:

(DHK) The First Baptist Church of Jerusalem.


3AM suggested this :
The Church of Jesus Christ. The 'ecclesia' of Jesus. THE BODY. The
ONE TRUE Church.

Yet DHK says the Body of Christ is the local church.

A Catholic from another forum offered this wisdom:

Christ established an authoritative teaching church that He
compared to the mustard seed which would grow and develop.
I believe that the church Jesus established was the one that came
to be known as the Catholic Church

Ya know what I think..?
I think if the three of you were turned loose on a potential convert
who is seeking salvation / Christ / eternal life etc., that He would
be so confused by the time you got done with him..... he'd probably
just choose to forget the whole thing.


I witnessed to a 32 yr old cousin extensively last night and our 96 yr
old cousin...separately. I did not extend a mandatory denomination, did
not propose that church was necessary, did not discuss baptism nor
tongues. The younger gal is open to discussion, after being raised in a
home where Christianity was not practiced. The 96 yr old who also
came from a Non-Christ centered home, still responded with "Well, I'm
not sure I believe that" when I told her she was blessed and that someone
upstairs was looking out for her.

Someone could force baptism upon them both and it sure wouldn't
give them the Holy Spirit. Belief has to come first. God gives to
whom He will....We love Him because He first loved Us.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Singer,

The truth is not confusing at all, the confusion comes from preconcieved ideals put forth by people who are confused to begin with.

A Seventh Day Adventist evangelical team went to Africa this past fall.

The complete numbers are still not in, but as of RIGHT NOW, the number of converts EXCEEDS 100,000.

ALL of which were previously either Catholic, Baptist, PENTECOSTAL, and heathen.

Several were even PASTORS of those denomination.

They were all baptized.

Check out this article, especially the pictures:
Illuminating the Dark Continent

God Bless

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:


Do they have the Apostles doctrines (hmmmmm), breaking bread (hmmmm), and PRAYER.

I'll let you chew on that one.

God Bless

Speaking of the Apostles Doctrine, do you have it? If you do tell me what it is.

I'll let you chew on that one

God bless

Brian

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Singer,

The truth is not confusing at all, the confusion comes from preconcieved ideals put forth by people who are confused to begin with.

A Seventh Day Adventist evangelical team went to Africa this past fall.

The complete numbers are still not in, but as of RIGHT NOW, the number of converts EXCEEDS 100,000.

ALL of which were previously either Catholic, Baptist, PENTECOSTAL, and heathen.

Several were even PASTORS of those denomination.

They were all baptized.

Check out this article, especially the pictures:
Illuminating the Dark Continent

God Bless

3AM, how were these converted, other than the "heathen?" It looks as though all of them believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, how were they baptized?..since baptism isn't new to them, other than the "heathen."

Just curious,
MEE

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carol

, Good to "see" you. Thanks for the picture, it is just so cool to have a face with the name. I hope this is OK to say but I thought you were older then your picture looks

but apparently I was mistaken.

3AM, what point are you makng by the post above that MEE eluded to.

Muslims convert people at astounding levels and they are totally wrong.

Curious as well,
Brian

 

[hrhema]

OSAS is easy believism. It is what people want to believe because they want to live any way to live any way they choose to and inherit Heaven but this is not scriptural.

To me it is an outright affront to God's Holiness and his sovereignty for people to say it is not Grace if God expects anything out of us. It is Grace that God even deals with man. It is grace that God even gives us a chance to go to Heaven. It is Grace that he does not wipe us all off the face of the EArth.

The moral law was not done away with. The Ten Commandments are still in effect.

The Bible makes it pretty clear that we cannot continue to live in sin and that is the problem.
People want to live any way they choose and still be saved.

People cannot distinguish between works and sin.
Work is things like going to Church. Cleaning the Church. Giving offerings and tithes. Singing in the choir. Singing specials. Visiting and on and on and on. These things won't save anyone.

What Paul and all others was trying to say was that all the rituals associated with the law was not going to save anyone. Paul was not giving us a license to sin. Yet those who believe in OSAS seem to live very sinful and ungodly lives.

I fully realize that we are human and we will slip and fall and make mistakes and sin but it is not repented sin that will cost someone their soul. It is unrepentant sin and wilfull sin that will cost a believer their soul.

People want to lie, cheat, steal, commit sexual sins, etc etc and still go to Heaven. They want to go through life doing as they please and when they die they will go on to Heaven. If this is true then God would have to repent to Sodom and Gomorrah for destroying the twin cities.

God told Ezekiel that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and becomes wicked his righteousness will be remembered no more. Those who beleive OSAS will cry but that was in the Old Testament. So What. The God who said he changeth not said this.

God judged a lot of people in the Old Testament for sin. King Saul. NAdab and Abihu. Korah and Dathan. The thousands of Jews at the time of Moses. The list is pretty long. Now we say all of this has changed and God has changed. Let me tell you something. If people can inherit Heaven and live a sinful life then God is going to have to apologize to these.

The Blood of Jesus had to be shed so man could be saved. Yet if OSAS was true doctrine then Jesus would not have to be interceding with the FAther or he would not have to be the mediator between us and God the FAther. The fact that he is interceeding for us should tell us we don't have it made.

 

[Briguy]

H, how much obedience is enough obedience? How many works are enough works? How soon after a believer sins must he repent?

Where are the lines drawn????

In Christ,
Brian

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by Briguy:
H, how much obedience is enough obedience? How many works are enough works? How soon after a believer sins must he repent?

Where are the lines drawn????

In Christ,
Brian

Brian, why draw lines, if you know you have messed up repent.

Do I think that if a born again Christian says a bad word, or smokes a cigarette or drinks a beer is fallen from Grace? No, and a thousand times No!

Romans 1:24:28 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

People come to God all the time and yes even serve him. But who couldn't serve him for a day? But once one starts to turn from what they know and start seeking the thing of the flesh once again God will give them over to a reprobate mind.

As long as we truley seek after God and his Rightousness there is no way he will cast us out. (John 6:37)


Hebrews 6:4-6 lets us know in a stronger possible language that some came to know God , they tasted of him, and they even had the Holy Ghost, but they fell away. And the bible went as far as saying "For it is impossible for those to renew them again unto repentance".


Hebrews 4:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Again, I'm not sure that helped but again, chew up the meat and spit out the bones.

Have a good day

Brian

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi Carol

, Good to "see" you. Thanks for the picture, it is just so cool to have a face with the name. I hope this is OK to say but I thought you were older then your picture looks

but apparently I was mistaken.

Brian

Well Brian, I don't know how old you think I am, but that picture was taken Christmas a year ago.

That's just so you won't think that I went and dug up one of my younger pictures.

MEE

 

[3AngelsMom]

Good morning everyone!

Ok, the reason I posted that is because Singer seems to think that he is the only one who can win souls because DHK, myself and all of us 'denominationalist' Christians are just too confusing to win anyone to Christ.

I had to show him that he is mistaken in his assumption.

The converts in Africa were people who were Baptist, one even a Pastor. Did anyone go to the site and look at the pictures? Very moving stuff! I went to a Faith Summit weekend 2 Sabbaths ago and met with the Evangelistic team that did this. I saw a multimedia presentation that had about 150 pictures. The ones on the site are just a drop in the bucket. There were converts from the Pentecostal Church, one of them THE pastor, and again, they were converted to Christ.

I understand MEE the sense of misunderstanding on your part as to 'why' these people were getting baptized 'again' if they were already in a denomination. Here is the reason.

I speak from experience. I was baptized when I joined the SDA church. The reason why is for the same reason that people who had been baptized by John were getting REbaptized by the Apostles. They were baptized again because they had a NEW and DIFFERENT relationship with God after being taught the Apostles Doctrines. What they had before was limited light on scripture. John baptized them unto repentance, and the Apostles were baptizing them into Jesus.

I was baptized when I joined the IFB church. That was when I was a teen, and had 'gotten saved'. When I joined the SDA church it was after several years of being OUT of the Grace of God, and completely away from anything that could be called good.

When I was humbled before God, and submitted myself to Him, the Holy Spirit led me into truth, and I learned all sorts of new things that I had never known about God, and the Bible, FROM the Bible and my own personal study. By the time I met SDA's and started realizing how much of what they believed agreed with what God had shown me, I joined. It was important to me to be baptized because the baptism that took place at the IFB church was in the realm of my 'repentance' while I was a teen. When I did that, then, I wasn't submitted to God, I had not had a complete conversion. It was a step, but I didn't take it far enough, or a better way to put that would be, I didn't allow God to complete the work that He started in me.

When I submitted myself to Him 3 years ago, I did it with my whole heart, and felt compelled to be baptized due to the completely NEW relationship that God had started with me.

I can only assume, but that is most likely what has happened with these converts in Africa. They may have had a conversion experience, being Baptist, Pentecostal, and Catholic, but when they encountered the Truth from the Bible at the mouth of the Evangelists, they felt compelled by this NEW relationship that God had started with them, to signify it with Baptism.

From what the guys were telling us, some of these Baptist, Pentecostal, and Catholics had never even HAD a conversion experience. The very idea of being born again was news to them! Don't forget, their churches over there are slightly different from ours! Even here the African American churches differ from what we 'white' folks do in ours. The Division of African American SDA churches have a VERY spirited worship service. Something that I haven't ever seen, except IN AA churches.

I in no way am passing judgment upon the readers of this forum, but I would like to say that in my experience since joining the SDA church with my old friends that are still Baptist is this:

Some of THEM, here in the US have not even been converted. The shallow 'gospel' that is being preached in the pulpits in America is leaving them not only without conviction but without conversion. It is a sad thing to see, indeed. Some are seeking truth and leave their churches each week unfulfilled, while others are so complacent in spirit that it makes no difference to them if the pastor is teaching them truth or not. It is that 'easy believism' that we are talking about here.

If you would like a glimpse of the 'wonderful works of God' that these converts heard that 'pricked' their hearts, there are audio files at the Evangelism site that you can listen to. Don't get all weird on me and tell me I am trying to indoctrinate you! If you are scared of even 'exposing' your self the SDA teachings, then don't go there, but if you would like to hear the man who taught these meetings where 10,000 people some in standing room only, listened and were converted, check it out. The links to the audio and video are in the description to the right of each picture of the lessons.
Video and Audio of Evangelistic Mettings

Now that I think of it, if you are scared of being exposed to SDA teaching, you better not read any more of my posts!

I would also like to point out, that by the FIFTH night of meetings there were converts. People ALREADY wanting baptism. The lesson done that night was 'The Supreme Sacrifice'. If you only listen to one, listen to that one! It is AWESOME.

God Bless

PS, MEE, I thought you were YOUNGER!!!

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by ONENESS:
Speaking of the Apostles Doctrine, do you have it? If you do tell me what it is.

I'll let you chew on that one

God bless

Brian

Hey, quit stealing my lines!!!

Apostles Doctrines: (not in order of importance, but in order of occurance in Scripture)

1. Hearing and then doing (Matt 7)
2. Living in obedience unto righteousness (Romans 6)
3. Avoid those who teach contrary doctrines (Romans 16)
4. Exercise yourself unto Godliness (1 Timothy 4)
5. Be an example in word, conversation, charity, spirit, faith, purity (ibid)
6. Members of the Body of Christ are your brothers and sisters (1 Timothy 5)
7. Scripture furnishes you with doctrine, reproof, correction and how to be righteous, so you can be perfected in Christ and live in obedience to Him (2 Timothy 3)
8. God will judge the living and the dead AT His Coming (2 Timothy 4)
9. Deny ungodliness and worldly lust, live sober, righteous, and godly in this life (Titus 2)
10. If you see a brother in sin, rebuke him (Galtians 6)
11. Walk in the Spirit so you will not sin. (Galatians 5)
12. We are children of God, and heirs to Abraham's promise, in Christ (Galatians 3)
13. No man is justified by the 'works' of the law (clip clip) (Galatians 2)
14. The household of God is built upon Christ and the Apostles and Prophets. (Ephesians 2)
15. There is ONE Body, Spirit, faith, Lord, baptism and ONE God (Ephesians 4)
16. Walk in love, as Christ did for us, by abstaining from all sin (Ephesians 5)
17. Live in obedience, working out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2)
18. Give everything to God in prayer, and think only on good things (Philippians 4)

That certainly isn't all of them, but I have to go take kids to school, so go over those, then tell me what YOU think the Apostles doctrines are.

God Bless

 

[ONENESS]

First of all let me ask HAS ANYONE SEEN GRANNYGUMBO? I miss her.

Originally Posted by 3Angelsmom

I speak from experience. I was baptized when I joined the SDA church. The reason why is for the same reason that people who had been baptized by John were getting REbaptized by the Apostles. They were baptized again because they had a NEW and DIFFERENT relationship with God after being taught the Apostles Doctrines. What they had before was limited light on scripture. John baptized them unto repentance, and the Apostles were baptizing them into Jesus.

Mornin ma....about what you said.

John's disciples were not rebaptized b/c they had a new and diffrent relationship with God.

They were rebaptized in the "NAME OF JESUS b/c it was part of the New Birth (John 3:1-5)

What was the first thing paul said to them? "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed"?

Remember we must be born of the WATER and the Spirit to see the kingdom of God.

Paul was making sure they were born again.

God bless