tongues

[DHK]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Classical Penetcostals teach that Jesus is the Baptizer. And, that we are Baptized into the Holy Spirit. Just as my scriptural references intimate.

But, I believe the Classical Pentecostals use of the term 'Baptism' in regards to the Filling of the Holy Spirit, is highly proper and accurate.

And, note that both you and I are using the term 'Filling' which has decidedly different conotation than having the Spirit as a Walk Along-Side Guide or paraclette.

There is only ONE baptism into the Holy Ghost, and that takes place at salvation, when the believer is baptized into the body of Christ (or the family of God), whatever you may call it. It is not accompanied by tongues, and if it was you would be able to demonstrate it through the epistles. It rarely is accompanied by the filling of the Holy Spirit, though it was in the example of Paul's conversion. Other than that we don't have to much evidence that it was a general occurence. Today we are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit: "Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess but be ye (continually) filled with the Holy Spirit. This is a command of God. We should seek to continually be filled with the Holy Spirit of God. This comes by faithfully yielding ourselves to the Holy Spirit and to God; doing whatever He would have us to do, and not what we want to do.
Paul said: "I die daily." Every day he puts his body to death. He says no to his own natrual appetites; his carnal desires.
In Gal.2:20, he says: "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, Yet not I but it is Christ that liveth in me. Now the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

It is not me that lives, it is Christ. I am dead he says. It is Christ that lives in me.

Be filled with the Holy Spirit as you completely yield yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ. Say no to self, and Yes to Christ.
DHK

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

DHK,

I agree with you that a Born-Again believer can not be demon-possessed. Absolutely!

My God is a jealous God. He fights for me. He goes before me... And, He brings up the rearguard.

On other points... You and I remain at odds and apparently irreconcilable on this issue.

Fortunately, it is *not* a Salvation issue. And, I can live with the fact that you disagree with me.

I am sorry I got you a bit 'agitated'.

Sometimes when two Christians of differing viewpoints get started they try to make each other think too much?

Perhaps, we should let this rest and find points of commonality in the Grace and Mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Though it sure is tempting to keep trying to 'make points'

 

[southern phoenix]

Ed Edwards:

I always assumed the opposite:
"glossa" mentioned in the Bible is the same as "modern glossa".

If you assume your assumption, then must of the use of "glossa"
in the Bible is contradicted.
How can it be the language of the angels, if it is of men's language?
How can it be talking to God alone, if it is of men's langauage?
Why is an interperter needed, if it is of men's langauge?
Why should only two or three speek glossa in one meeting --
what if there are people of six different languages
in the meeting?
I'm sure i could think of more, but i've got to be off to work.

hi Ed,

thanks for sharing your precious time here

btw, I came to this assumption just a few months ago. so before that, I, was just like you, believed that "glossa" can be the human-language and also the "modern glossa" (really really meaningless language for us).

but a few months ago, when I was having a debate with a fellow Indonesian in an Indonesian Christian mailing list, I started to change my mind.

(btw, the guy I debated is a charismatic movement follower. well, I started to debate him because he stated that Billy Graham is without the Holy Spirit since he doesn`t receive "glossa" gift

)

I found writings of Prof. William Samarin. He did a vast research about this topic. He recorded the "sound" and he said that, those kind of things are not languages at all....and fyi, the "sounds" are different from country to country.
should "glossa" depend on the speakers` nationality ??

Walguy has mentioned about it in his posting (Nov.25).

and as I started to compare those verses with "glossa" then I began to be sure that I would come to a conclusion that "modern glossa" is different from the real "glossa."

the only reason I still called it "assumption" is because I`m still trying to find anything that could tell me that I`m wrong....and for some reason, I cannot continue this research for awhile.....huh, I think I also need to learn some Greek to do that

and what about things that you said will contradict my assumption......

>How can it be the language of the angels, if it is of men's language?

I think I`d refer you to DHK`s answer for this one (posted Nov 30).

I think the Corinthians who received Paul`s letter understood that Paul didn`t mean that he could speak of an angelic "glossa"....he used that to stress that even such thing would be useless without love. that`s just a hyperbolic expression.....

and also, if Paul did mean he could speak the angelic "glossa" then we would come to an idea that the angels` language would cease too....??
human languages do cease....many, I guess, have ceased at this moment.

>How can it be talking to God alone, if it is of men's langauage?

let say that someone talks in Japanese and no person around him understands him....

then, would it be wrong to say that he is talking to God alone ?? especially, when even he, doesn`t understand Japanese

>Why is an interperter needed, if it is of men's langauge?

if I speak in Japanese in an english congregation.....what would you do ? prepare someone who can interpret my Japanese, or ask me to interpret it myself or just ask me to stay silence, right....

>Why should only two or three speek glossa in one meeting --

remember that Paul told us not do it in the same time....that could mean a loooong time for one person

let me refer a writing of Justin Martyr here.
(at the close of his larger Apology, describes the public worship more particularly, as it was conducted about the year 140)

"On Sunday a meeting of all, who live in the cities and villages, is held, and a section from the Memoirs of the Apostles (the Gospels) and the writings of the Prophets (the Old Testament) is read, as long as the time permits. When the reader has finished, the president, in a discourse, gives all exhortation to the imitation of these noble things. After this we all rise in common prayer. At the close of the prayer........"

please note...."as long as the time permits"

I think that if someone does "glossa" he would be allowed to do that "as long as the time permits"....since that would edify the congregation.

anyway, reading Martyr`s writing, it seems also that even the real "glossa" was not practised in the service anymore.

well, bye for now.

Gby,

-ken-

 

[Elk]

Dear Ken,

You said, "and God knows even before we pray, right ?
I mean, without "modern glossa," we still can pray to God and say that we just don`t know how to pray, but we need His help....."God, help" is surely something we can say, right"...

You know what? When I read your message, I was reminded of this. Years ago, I was going through a difficult time, and to compound the problem, when I prayed in tongues, I seemed to just repeat the same phrase over and over again, and I began to wonder why. Well, of all things, I was reading a book by Oral Roberts, and he said he always prays for the interpretation of his prayer language. So, I prayed, and guess what?
The Lord revealed to me that I was constantly repeating "Help me". I was very surprised and amazed.
But shortly later my prayer language changed and became much more varied again.

Of course, you must understand, there was a lot going on during the revival at that church at the time. We even had demon-possessed people coming to our church. One man during worship was found on the carpet under a pew literally foaming at the mouth. People took him out and prayed peace over him. There was a white haze over the stage at the time, and it was very hard to walk fast around the altar, for it felt like one was walking through water. And there is so much more to tell about that time.

 

[southern phoenix]

DHK:

I have lots of them, that can be verified as well. Two pastors in the Vancouver area entered a Charismatic church because there was no other around. They found as the service began many people speaking in tongues, and all at the same time. One of the two pastors was from Greece and did know modern Greek. He said to the other, "Let's get out of here, immediately!" When out of the building, the other pastor asked him why the great urgency? He replied: "Did you see that person just across the aisle from me?" "He was speaking perfect Greek, saying 'I love the devil, I love the devil,' over and over again."

I guess we should equip pastors with IC recorders somehow, I think that people who were found speaking heresy (and they don`t realize about that) should be warned with a proof.

Gby,

-ken-

 

[Elk]

Ken,
Have you ever smelled God?

 

[southern phoenix]

Elk:
The Lord revealed to me that I was constantly repeating "Help me". I was very surprised and amazed.

..how did you come to a conclusion that that was "help me" ?

Elk:

Of course, you must understand, there was a lot going on during the revival at that church at the time. We even had demon-possessed people coming to our church. One man during worship was found on the carpet under a pew literally foaming at the mouth. People took him out and prayed peace over him. There was a white haze over the stage at the time, and it was very hard to walk fast around the altar, for it felt like one was walking through water. And there is so much more to tell about that time.

well, though this one has nothing to do with the topic here, but I would like to say that these also happen in many churches without "tongue"

Indonesia is a country with many occultism practices. I heard when there was a kind of civil war a few years ago in Kalimantan, some could see swords flying by themselves

and I was borned in a non-Christian family, and my conversion was not without spiritual struggles.

but as I begin to know Him better, I learn that what I need is He Himself, not the signs......not a spectacular experience....

Elk:

Have you ever smelled God?

well, I hope you understand what I mean above

Gby,

-ken-

 

[Ed Edwards]

Southern Pheonix: "I found writings of Prof. William Samarin. He did a vast research about this topic. He recorded the "sound" and he said that, those kind of things are not languages at all....and fyi, the "sounds" are different from country to country.
should "glossa" depend on the speakers` nationality ?? "

The "modern glossa" does.
Seems by age six a human person learns to make all the mouth sounds
they will ever learn. People who learn a new language after that
speak with an accent (don't quite make the right sounds);
people who learn a second or third language before that
don't have an accent. So if a person speaks in a glossa,
they will speak with the sounds they know how to make.

DHK: "The gift of tongues has ceased. It is no longer for
today. What goes on in the name of tongues today
is completely fraudulent."

I find something wrong with dismissing 400,000,000 Christans
from consideration.
Actually, i understand it.
It is the nature of prejudice:
I dismiss half the people because they are Catholic, leaves 50%.
I dismiss half the people because they are women, leaves 25%.
I dismiss half the people because they speak tongues,
leaves 5%. Hey I'm in the top 5% of Christians.
By gollies, thank you lord for letting me see this.

I think i will get up this morning.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Hey, Ed,

Did you by chance happen to read Mel Tari's book, 'Like a Mighty Wind'?


Something Briguy said:

Spiritual Gifts are given to use like a present. Think of getting a car as a present (like that would really happen ) Once you get the gift you decide when and where to drive it. It is the same for SG's Once we place our trust in Christ he gives us a gift or gifts and it/they are ours to use when and where we want. The gift is part of us and we decide when it is used not God. He may prompt us but the using of the gift is ours.

Was *a lot* harder to respond to civilly than he may have known.

This is because there is a heresy in Charismatic and Pentecostal circles now about man commanding God.

You know shouting at God that His Word says such and such so therefore God **has to** do such and such.

Well, that's how Briguy's post struck me in regards to using the Gift's solely at man's will and convenience.

I guess there's just enough Calvinist in me to feel really offended that My Sovereign God would be pulled down from His Throne and Manipulated by His own creation.

I am an adopted Son in The Sovereign of the Universes Family. And, yes, I can walk into 'dad's' office any time I want without knocking...

But, He is *still* Almighty God. And, He *still* disciplines His Children. (ouch!)

I was raised to have so much respect and awe for the Gifts of the Spirit that for me to consider them mine to use as I see fit anytime I see fit is so alien that it boggles my mind and it's hard to respond to.

If that makes any sense at all?

Maybe? I am like the teenager that has just gotten his first car and doesn't quite fully trust myself to make all the decisions as to where to drive it and when? I don't know.

But, as soon as I used this illustration...

I am reminded of all the immature teenagers that get new cars and go wrap themselves around trees...

And, to me, the Gifts of the Spirit are far more powerful and far quicker than any Ferrari.

I think in a lot of ways, while we disagree on some fine points of scriptural exegesis, and God's Timing, that the real issue that colors this discussion is the immaturity and abuses that have accompanied many, if not most, Pentecostals and especially Charismatics.

(At least the Pentecostals studied their Bibles!)

Well, I'm rambling...

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
DHK: "The gift of tongues has ceased. It is no longer for
today. What goes on in the name of tongues today
is completely fraudulent."

I find something wrong with dismissing 400,000,000 Christans
from consideration.
Actually, i understand it.
It is the nature of prejudice:
I dismiss half the people because they are Catholic, leaves 50%.
I dismiss half the people because they are women, leaves 25%.
I dismiss half the people because they speak tongues,
leaves 5%. Hey I'm in the top 5% of Christians.
By gollies, thank you lord for letting me see this.

I think i will get up this morning.

The majority is rarely, if ever, right. In true Biblical Christianity, the real believers have always in the minority. The largest segment of Christendom today is Catholicism, but that doesn't make Catholicsim right. The Charismatic movement, along with their cohort the Third Wave are the next fastest growing movement under the umbrella of Christendom. That doesn't make them either Christian or right. Neither does it speak for the multitude of other cults: J.W.'s, SDA's, Mormons, etc. These are so vastly different in their theology that they all cannot be Christian. And they aren't. And they all cannot be right; and they aren't. The same is true of Pentecostals, Charismatics, etc.

To be saved is not to believe Jesus. Period. The Muslims do that, and possibly many of the Hindus.
To be saved is to believe that the sacrifice of Jesus is enough to atone for your sins, and that you as a sinner come to Jesus, believingly calling on His name to save you. However, it just can't be any Jesus. You must call on the Jesus of the Bible. No other Jesus will do. Calling on the Jesus of the Muslims will get you nowhere. Many Charismatics have the wrong concept of who Jesus is. If you have the same concept of Jesus as Benny Hinn preaches I highly doubt that you or Benny Hinn are saved. He believes a different gospel; a different Jesus. Paul said that such a one should be accursed.

Jude did not say "What ever will be, will be; Que sera; Que sera" He said:
Earnestly contend for the faith!

If that means pointing out errors of false cults and in other denominations (and it does), then so be it. The last thing a Spirit-filled Christian would want to do is sit idly by and watch the world go to Hell, by not pointing out some of the errors that may be causing some to go there.
Tongues is a crucial issue, if not for the very reason that many people believe that they are necessary for their salvation. We need to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. And such a foolish doctrine as that was never delivered to the saints.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
DHK,
On other points... You and I remain at odds and apparently irreconcilable on this issue.

Fortunately, it is *not* a Salvation issue. And, I can live with the fact that you disagree with me.

I am sorry I got you a bit 'agitated'.

Sometimes when two Christians of differing viewpoints get started they try to make each other think too much?

Perhaps, we should let this rest and find points of commonality in the Grace and Mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

Though it sure is tempting to keep trying to 'make points'

Sometimes I appear agitated, or some have said even angry. Rest assured I am not. I just voice my convictions a bit more zealously than others. I don't mean to offend you. Ask or question as much as you please. I will not be offended at all.
DHK

 

[Elk]

I do have my complaints about some pentecostal things that I have witnessed, some of television.

We call it "Christian Witchcraft Incantations".
This is where people teach that in order to keep the devil at bay, they must pray the right words and do basically various spiritual works. Unwittingly, I believe that some folks do not realize that they are actually professing that the devil has more power than God, and that God is not in control.
Some people teach that you must pray in tongues for certain lengths of time each day. Again, this is what I would call "works".

I remember reading something from Charles Stanley, which I always thought was very good. If praying in tongues or things that we can do, take more presidence than THE CROSS, then we are wrong.
Obviously, our attention is focused on self then rather than JESUS.

Sometimes it is scary, when it appears that there is a new gospel out there, in various places and different circles. Again, I think it happens when people start preaching what others are saying instead of getting the Word from God alone.

 

[DHK]

"Sometimes it is scary when there is a new gospel out." There is a lot of truth in that statement. You made some good points.
DHK

 

[DHK]

 

[Briguy]

SS writes: """I was raised to have so much respect and awe for the Gifts of the Spirit that for me to consider them mine to use as I see fit anytime I see fit is so alien that it boggles my mind and it's hard to respond to.

If that makes any sense at all?

Maybe? I am like the teenager that has just gotten his first car and doesn't quite fully trust myself to make all the decisions as to where to drive it and when? I don't know.

But, as soon as I used this illustration...

I am reminded of all the immature teenagers that get new cars and go wrap themselves around trees...

And, to me, the Gifts of the Spirit are far more powerful and far quicker than any Ferrari.""""


SMM, you make some great points here. What you write is what was happening in Corinth when Paul wrote 1 Cor. The immature Christians were using their "Gifts" inappropriately and many were pretending they had "Gifts" that they did not have. Kind of like stealing a car and trying to pass it off as yours, eventually the truth comes out. Paul spent several chapters getting the "Gift" thing straight and 1 Cor. as a whole must be read as a rebuke with instruction, not as a "feel-good Spiritual gift guide".
Anyway, back to the point of what you said. When I made my statement I knew it would be foreign to the way you were taught. Non-the-less, the logic of what I said can't be denied. Take the gift of preaching or teaching. Haven't you just been at awe at how some people can just flow the gospel and verse support out of their mouth so easily. They just know what to say and it flows so smoothly. I would love to be like that but I am not. I can teach younger people somewhat but when I speak the words do not flow. I kind of force the words out of my mouth. Anyway, Pastors who are gifted speakers have a special God given ability. It is in them even if they leave the ministry and never speak at a church again. The gift has become part of who they are, it is not a switch that can be turned on or off. In a dozen years of being a Christian and having worshipped in many churches I have never seen a speaker get up and say his gift for preaching or teaching was not active so he couldn't preach/teach. It is the same with tongues or healing. If they were active gifts today the people with them would choose to when to use them, they would not be able to fail and say that God didn't act, like we see in churches today. This is a logical approach I know but it is legitimate if you look at all the text on the "gifts". As I said before the whole idea behind a gift is it is something given fully to another. If you gave me your watch it would be mine. I would wear it when I wanted, where I wanted and set the time the way I wanted. You would have no more claim of that watch and unless you beat me up and took it back it would be mine as long as I lived. I don't believe God would control what he gave us and certainly would not beat us up and take the gift back. Just some thoughts

Hope you are well

In Christ,
Brian

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

and 1 Cor. as a whole must be read as a rebuke with instruction, not as a "feel-good Spiritual gift guide".

Now, if my Pentecostal Brethren would only receive it this way!

Not as a license to drive (as one pleases), as it were. But, as an instruction manual of how to drive properly and for a long time to come.

In a dozen years of being a Christian and having worshiped in many churches I have never seen a speaker get up and say his gift for preaching or teaching was not active so he couldn't preach/teach.

You bring up an interesting point about a gift being available when needed.

I don't know if this will communicate what I'm thinking. But, here goes.

Let's say someone gives me a gift of a 512MB USB 'Jump Drive'. True it's mine to use anytime and anywhere.

But, there are only certain places, (USB Ports), where it can be used properly and effectively.

There are places where, even if a USB port exists, it is not proper to use it because of security concerns.

I would be foolish to go around waving 'my gift' in everybody's face. Or, plugging it into everybody's computer.

Though, it would surely be my prerogative to do so. As Paul puts it... All things are lawful, but, not all things are expedient...


Whether, I've been asked to lead Worship, or Preach a sermon, or minister at the altar. There has never been a question of whether or not any of my gifts would be available and operable.

And, I have no question that should I have a need to operate in the Gifts of the Spirit I could.

I will share more, later, as time (and interest) permits.

For the time being, though, I am going to meditate on which attributes of my Christian Walk are Attendant and Permanent Spiritual Gifts...

And, which ones are the natural attributes of any average believer who wants to walk with Jesus.

How much is simply a part of a Spirit-Owned Life and how much is a result of an imparted gift.

Interesting... This may make me have to take a more active role in my home church and ministry.

Now, If I could just stretch time...

 

[Briguy]

Hey SMM, I really like what you said about the "Jump Drive". Your point was a great example of the mis-use of "gifts" and the potential for mis-use, especially in the early church. If a gift is used solely for self-edification it has to be a mis-use or perversion of a gift or 1 cor. 12:7 was a Biblical mistake. Also in 1 cor 14 there is a verse that says that those who speak in tongues edify themselves. Many look at the verse and say it proves private tongues are OK. What it really says is thats what was being done and it is wrong. It was a negative statement in a book that is rebuking what was happening in the church of Corinth. Anyway, I strayed from the point. I am glad use see that you use the gifts that God has given freely without worry that God has turned them on

. Continue to pray that you are only using the gifts God has given you and not trying to have gifts that you may not have (I sure hope that that didn't sound harsh because it was not intended to. You have been very Christlike and nice to "talk" to and I wouldn't want you to think I am some legalistic snobby kind of Christian. I have so much to learn about God and his Word and in no way feel that I "know everything". May we pray for eachother that we will realize our gifts and then use them to build up the "body", in our given local assemblies and wherever else God may use us.

In Christian love,
Brian

SMM, Can you tell me your first name? I will understand if you don't want to give that info out.

 

[Ed Edwards]

IMHO The Holy Spirit gives gifts
to individual persons to help individual churches.
So if you have a gift in one church, you may
not have it in the other one.

SpiritualMadMan: " ... I'm going to meditate on ...
which ones are the natural attributes of any
average believer ... "

No place in the Bible are all the gifts of the Spirit
deleniated. In fact, some people are given gifts
similiar to things that are commanded of us.
For example: we are all to love the brethern/sistern;
but some have a special love gift of the Spirit.
We are all commaned to give even sacrifically;
but some have a special giving gift of the Spirit
(and some money to go with it

)

Martyr: "After this we all rise in common prayer."

This could include untranslated glossa?
Ever heard glossa called "a prayer language"?

 

[Briguy]

SMM, If you do figure out howto stretch time please share it with the rest of us. Man, sometimes I come home from work and only have time to change and I am rushing out the door to my sons basketball practice/game, AWANA, etc... I am hoping we can take a good couple of nights to drive around as a family and look at Christmas lights. I fear it will be Christmas so fast that I won't get to do the things I love this time of year. Merry Christmas and take care

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Ed Edwards]

More days or longer days???

Deuteronomy 11:8-17 (KJV1769):
8 Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments
which I command you this day,
that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land,
whither ye go to possess it;
9 And that ye may prolong your days in the land,
which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give unto
them and to their seed, a land that floweth with milk and honey."