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tongues
- Thread starter Mike McK
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
What i'm presenting is what the gift of
tongues is, that tongues is a gift of the Spirit
for today, that tongues is NOT the only sign
of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
tongues is, that tongues is a gift of the Spirit
for today, that tongues is NOT the only sign
of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Again, the Bible defines
the "gift of tongues" different from the
way you do. You describe the "miracle
of tongues". There is a "gift of tongues"
different from the miracle of tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:2 (nKJV):
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts,
but especially that you may prophesy.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does
not speak to men but to God, for no one
understands him; however, in the spirit
he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who
prophesies speaks edification and
exhortation and comfort to men.
Nobody speaking in tongues knows what they
speak. Therefore you will be praying for all
tongue talkers. Thank you for your prayers.
Hi all, took some time away from the BB while on vacation from work. Seems not much has changed and no one has changed their mind.
Ed, sometimes its hard to see exactly what you believe, I am glad you clarified it in your last post. You are wrong of course
but I am glad you were clear. AChristian made a great point above. Tongue use was easy and was not some mystical angelic super-language or something. It went like this. A person (before 70AD) came into an assembly where the gospel was being taught. The assembly would have most likely had believers and those "checking it out" (much like our assemblies today). That person or group of people that came in may not have spoke the language that the gospel (or preaching as it were) was being shared in. Languages were diverse and areas where languages differed were much closer then we understand here in the USA. See the begining of Acts when Tongues were first used to see how many languages were close together. Anyway, that person or group would get nothing out of the service unless someone spoke in their language (i.e Tongues). So a tongue speaker, the assembly would know who they were, would share the gospel with the foreigner/s. Well, if left at that the rest of the assembly would be unable to understand so another, who had the gift of tongue interpretation, would rise and translate the message to the assembly, thus all in the assembly would be edified. The Bible is clear in 1 cor. 14 that the assembly knew who could interpret before the tongue speaker would speak, that is why if no interpreter was there they were to be quiet. 1 cor. 12:7 has to be fulfilled in any use of a gift, that is that Gifts edify the "body" not the individual. Anyway, that scenario captures what Paul wanted to see happening in the early church but wasn't in some cases so Paul spent time in 1 cor. mapping out tongues use and rebuking its mis-use.
Ed, I have not seen you give alternate meanings to the verses that we have used to prove tongues were a sign that ended when what they pointed to happened.
Hi Singer
Hope you are well!!!
In Christ,
Brian
Ed, sometimes its hard to see exactly what you believe, I am glad you clarified it in your last post. You are wrong of course
but I am glad you were clear. AChristian made a great point above. Tongue use was easy and was not some mystical angelic super-language or something. It went like this. A person (before 70AD) came into an assembly where the gospel was being taught. The assembly would have most likely had believers and those "checking it out" (much like our assemblies today). That person or group of people that came in may not have spoke the language that the gospel (or preaching as it were) was being shared in. Languages were diverse and areas where languages differed were much closer then we understand here in the USA. See the begining of Acts when Tongues were first used to see how many languages were close together. Anyway, that person or group would get nothing out of the service unless someone spoke in their language (i.e Tongues). So a tongue speaker, the assembly would know who they were, would share the gospel with the foreigner/s. Well, if left at that the rest of the assembly would be unable to understand so another, who had the gift of tongue interpretation, would rise and translate the message to the assembly, thus all in the assembly would be edified. The Bible is clear in 1 cor. 14 that the assembly knew who could interpret before the tongue speaker would speak, that is why if no interpreter was there they were to be quiet. 1 cor. 12:7 has to be fulfilled in any use of a gift, that is that Gifts edify the "body" not the individual. Anyway, that scenario captures what Paul wanted to see happening in the early church but wasn't in some cases so Paul spent time in 1 cor. mapping out tongues use and rebuking its mis-use. Ed, I have not seen you give alternate meanings to the verses that we have used to prove tongues were a sign that ended when what they pointed to happened.
Hi Singer
In Christ,
Brian
Hey Singer
Glad to hear you are well. It's great that Jesus saves and not people or churches. The personal part is the main thing. I really don't have an issue with our Catholic friends. I think many are saved, but I don't agree with their theology. I just pray for all believers that they will love Jesus and serve others in His name. Take care!!
To anybody: No comments on my post?
I still have never heard the real Catholic doctrine on tongues, they seem to avoid it for some reason.
In Christ,
Brian
Glad to hear you are well. It's great that Jesus saves and not people or churches. The personal part is the main thing. I really don't have an issue with our Catholic friends. I think many are saved, but I don't agree with their theology. I just pray for all believers that they will love Jesus and serve others in His name. Take care!!
To anybody: No comments on my post?
I still have never heard the real Catholic doctrine on tongues, they seem to avoid it for some reason.
In Christ,
Brian
Workin4Him
New Member
Hi everyone! I have a question about tongues. If they are dead and Paul was only writing to the first Century Church, then what do we do with the other gifts mentioned? Are they dead also? You just can't pick and choose. Also, why do we follow any other of his writings? This is the 21st Century so it doesn't apply? Not trying to get off on the wrong foot here or anything, just posing a question. One other thing, In I Corinthians 13:1 (KJV of course) Paul states "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am becoming as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Now, I've heard of Spanish, French, German, etc.... but what is the tongues of angels?
Thanks in advanve for your help in understanding this point of view.
Workin4Him
Thanks in advanve for your help in understanding this point of view.
Workin4Him
Concerning the other gifts, Workin4him, you will find varying opinions. The two most common and acceptable is that either they all have ceased (that is the ones specifically mentioned in 1Cor.12,)--a view I take. Or, that just the miraculous (sign) gifts have ceased--also a good interpretation.Originally posted by Workin4Him:
Hi everyone! I have a question about tongues. If they are dead and Paul was only writing to the first Century Church, then what do we do with the other gifts mentioned? Are they dead also? You just can't pick and choose. Also, why do we follow any other of his writings? This is the 21st Century so it doesn't apply? Not trying to get off on the wrong foot here or anything, just posing a question. One other thing, In I Corinthians 13:1 (KJV of course) Paul states "Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am becoming as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Now, I've heard of Spanish, French, German, etc.... but what is the tongues of angels?
Thanks in advanve for your help in understanding this point of view.
Workin4Him
I believe that all the gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12 were of a miraculous nature, a supernatural nature, or else they would not be mentioned. For example, when Paul mentions the gift of helps he is mentioning not simply a talent, but a gift that very few people had, and that God bestowed upon certain individuals in the first century in a miraculous way to help the people of the church in a way unknown to us. These were supernatural gifts.
The sign gifts, especially the ones mentioned in 1Cor.13:8--prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (special revelatory knowledge), all ceased when the Bible was completed at the end of the first century. We know that from a study of 1Cor.13:8-13, which teaches us when that which is perfect or complete (the Word of God) is come, then that which in part (the temporary gifts of tongues, prophecy and revelatory knowledge) shall pass away.
Regarding the tongues of angels: if you read the verses carefully Paul never said he spoke with the tongues of angels--he did not. Just as he didn't have all knowledge, or all faith, or he did not give all his money to the poor, nor did he give his body to be burned. These statements were all rhetorical in nature. They were conditioned by an "if" or a "though." So, "If I could speak with the languages of men and of angels" The language of an angel was the same language that humans used. Angels spoke to Mary, Joseph, Manoah, Jacob, Abraham, Joshua, and many others. How did they speak. They always spoke in the language of the person that they were speaking to. They spoke perfectly--with perfect grammar. They spoke eloquently. There were no mistakes in their speech. They would know all the languages of all men, and know them perfectly. That is the language of angels. Language is communication. They were able to communicate to any man.
We follow all the writings of the Bible for all that is in the Bible is inspired of God, it is all profitable for us. It is God's Word, His revelation to mankind. (2Tim.3:16)
DHK
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
The Book of 1 Corinthians which contains instructions in
Chapters 12-14 about speaking in tongues was written
in 55AD by Paul. In 70AD these writings became invalid.
About 325AD the place of 1 Corinthians in the cannon
was solidified. Which of these facts does NOT fit?
I think "In 70AD these writings became invalid." is
not correct.
1 Corinthians 13:8b (KJ21):
... whether there be tongues, they shall cease ...
But in 15 years after the words were penned? That hardly
seems worth the effort to write it down. No, i think
tongues are with us today and the instructions\
of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is still correct.
Yet i would rather prophesy a sentence than give a
ten hour speach in tongues
A_Christian: "I would never get involved with an
Assembly of God person."
I keep having it happen the other way around:
a person which whom i'm involved becomes
an Assembly of God (AoG) person. I've two former
fellow deacons of my local Baptist church who
are members (different times) of the AoG down
the road, well, more on the other side of town.
Friends are hard to find. I don't give up on them
just cause they become AoG.
Strawman: "The sign gifts of the Spirit
expired at the judgement of the Jews in 70AD.
The judgement of the Jews is not over. In fact,
after the rapture of the gentile Christians, the
7-year Tribulation period will come upon the
Jews -- judgement of JEws continued. Tongues,
the least of the Gifts of the Spirit, have NOT
expired.
1 Corinthians 14:1 (KJ21):
Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts,
but rather so that ye may prophesy.
{notice my graemlin, the Baptist
graemlin who only lifts one hand at a time.
Not to be confused with a carismatic
who raises both hands at the same time}
Chapters 12-14 about speaking in tongues was written
in 55AD by Paul. In 70AD these writings became invalid.
About 325AD the place of 1 Corinthians in the cannon
was solidified. Which of these facts does NOT fit?
I think "In 70AD these writings became invalid." is
not correct.
1 Corinthians 13:8b (KJ21):
... whether there be tongues, they shall cease ...
But in 15 years after the words were penned? That hardly
seems worth the effort to write it down. No, i think
tongues are with us today and the instructions\
of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is still correct.
Yet i would rather prophesy a sentence than give a
ten hour speach in tongues
A_Christian: "I would never get involved with an
Assembly of God person."
I keep having it happen the other way around:
a person which whom i'm involved becomes
an Assembly of God (AoG) person. I've two former
fellow deacons of my local Baptist church who
are members (different times) of the AoG down
the road, well, more on the other side of town.
Friends are hard to find. I don't give up on them
just cause they become AoG.
Strawman: "The sign gifts of the Spirit
expired at the judgement of the Jews in 70AD.
The judgement of the Jews is not over. In fact,
after the rapture of the gentile Christians, the
7-year Tribulation period will come upon the
Jews -- judgement of JEws continued. Tongues,
the least of the Gifts of the Spirit, have NOT
expired.
1 Corinthians 14:1 (KJ21):
Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts,
but rather so that ye may prophesy.
{notice my graemlin, the Baptist
graemlin who only lifts one hand at a time.
Not to be confused with a carismatic
who raises both hands at the same time}
Ed Writes: """But in 15 years after the words were penned? That hardly
seems worth the effort to write it down."""
Hi Ed. I got to tell you this statement of yours made me chuckle. In the grand scheme of life 15 years may seem small. Tell a 15 year old that his/her life is hardly worth any thing. I believe they will tell you otherwise and probably not so nicely. The world was created in 6 days. God filled the earth with water, to the highest mouantain in 40 days of rain and release of water from the deep. I worked a job for 14 1/2 years and it felt like a lifetime. Anyway 15 years and it may have been closer to 20 years, is a decent amount of time when you are warning people. Heck, in football there is only a 2 minute warning
(Go Packers). Anyway, The point is that 15-20 years is a very significant amount of time. Also, Those verses were obviously left in the cannon because there is much else contained in them besides tongues. they also were left in so we would know why and when tongues ended. Ed give me another meaning for "Tongues shall cease" written with a specific verb that means "fade away on their own". Tell me what is meant by "tongues are a sign" and the reference to the verses in Isaiah. It is not good to proclaim a position and not offer explanations for the very verses that make up the argument DHK, A_Christian, and I have made.
For the person who asked the question on the other gifts above: I fall on the side that says that the sign gifts are gone but the "service" gifts remain. There is no reason here to detail that as we should stick to tongues.
In Christian Love,
Brian
BTW, I am still waiting for the RCC doctrine on tongues. In thinking about it I believe Carson or somebody once offered something brief but it has left my mind (along with lots of other stuff ).
seems worth the effort to write it down."""
Hi Ed. I got to tell you this statement of yours made me chuckle. In the grand scheme of life 15 years may seem small. Tell a 15 year old that his/her life is hardly worth any thing. I believe they will tell you otherwise and probably not so nicely. The world was created in 6 days. God filled the earth with water, to the highest mouantain in 40 days of rain and release of water from the deep. I worked a job for 14 1/2 years and it felt like a lifetime. Anyway 15 years and it may have been closer to 20 years, is a decent amount of time when you are warning people. Heck, in football there is only a 2 minute warning
(Go Packers). Anyway, The point is that 15-20 years is a very significant amount of time. Also, Those verses were obviously left in the cannon because there is much else contained in them besides tongues. they also were left in so we would know why and when tongues ended. Ed give me another meaning for "Tongues shall cease" written with a specific verb that means "fade away on their own". Tell me what is meant by "tongues are a sign" and the reference to the verses in Isaiah. It is not good to proclaim a position and not offer explanations for the very verses that make up the argument DHK, A_Christian, and I have made.For the person who asked the question on the other gifts above: I fall on the side that says that the sign gifts are gone but the "service" gifts remain. There is no reason here to detail that as we should stick to tongues.
In Christian Love,
Brian
BTW, I am still waiting for the RCC doctrine on tongues. In thinking about it I believe Carson or somebody once offered something brief but it has left my mind (along with lots of other stuff
).Ed, don't you think he deserves 'both' hands?Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
{notice my graemlin, the Baptist
graemlin who only lifts one hand at a time.
Not to be confused with a carismatic
who raises both hands at the same time} [/QB]
Just call me Pentecostal....all the way!!!
MEE
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Brian,
I love you too much as a brother to go head to head on an issue that niether one of us is either able or willing to modify our position on.
Mee check this little smilie out:
http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/praise.gif
And this one, too.
http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/fish.gif
These are mine. I offered them to the webmasters here... Don't see them yet... Of course the webmaster that got the mssage may not have passed it on, either.
I love you too much as a brother to go head to head on an issue that niether one of us is either able or willing to modify our position on.
Mee check this little smilie out:
http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/praise.gif
And this one, too.
http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/fish.gif
These are mine. I offered them to the webmasters here... Don't see them yet... Of course the webmaster that got the mssage may not have passed it on, either.
Thanks! Now I only wish I could figure out how to use them.Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
Mee check this little smilie out:
http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/praise.gif
And this one, too.
http://www.houseofmyrrh.org/fish.gif
These are mine. I offered them to the webmasters here... Don't see them yet... Of course the webmaster that got the mssage may not have passed it on, either. [/QB]
I tried going to the site, but only came up with the two that you posted.How did you do that?
MEE
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Ed said
The constant effort to splice and chop scripture as in "never mind that one" starts with Genesis 1-7 then goes to the first 5 books of scripture, (Our Cahtolic friends like to do that) THEN to all of God's Word in the OT, THEN to all of the Gospels pre-Cross, THEN to all that is before Acts 2 Pentecost - THEN to all that is before the book of 1Corinthians for getting rid of tongues.
I say forget all that sniping and chopping at the Word of God. Lets just read and accept it instead.
Then we won't have to constantly ask 'do I need to toss out book of the Bible now?'.
In Christ,
Bob
I agree.
The constant effort to splice and chop scripture as in "never mind that one" starts with Genesis 1-7 then goes to the first 5 books of scripture, (Our Cahtolic friends like to do that) THEN to all of God's Word in the OT, THEN to all of the Gospels pre-Cross, THEN to all that is before Acts 2 Pentecost - THEN to all that is before the book of 1Corinthians for getting rid of tongues.
I say forget all that sniping and chopping at the Word of God. Lets just read and accept it instead.
Then we won't have to constantly ask 'do I need to toss out book of the Bible now?'.
In Christ,
Bob
Bob and or Ed, If you believe what you say then please give an alternate meaning to what the verses I mentioned before say. If you can't offer good sound Biblical interpretation for those scriptures then you have no argument.
Hi Mike, I know what you are saying and I would never let tongues get between me and a brother or sister. Carol (MEE) and I get along great on the board even though we differ on tongues and Baptism of the Holy Spirit issues. You and Carol seem to be great people despite the fact we see tongues differently.
Also, I really am looking for someone to challange how I said tongues worked and give me some alternate meaning for the direct scriptures that have been used as proof tongues have past. Oh, I also would like to see what our Catholic brothers say on the subject.
In Christ,
Brian
GO PACKERS!!!!!
Hi Mike, I know what you are saying and I would never let tongues get between me and a brother or sister. Carol (MEE) and I get along great on the board even though we differ on tongues and Baptism of the Holy Spirit issues. You and Carol seem to be great people despite the fact we see tongues differently.
Also, I really am looking for someone to challange how I said tongues worked and give me some alternate meaning for the direct scriptures that have been used as proof tongues have past. Oh, I also would like to see what our Catholic brothers say on the subject.
In Christ,
Brian
GO PACKERS!!!!!
New In Christ
New Member
Question for MEE:
MEE, do you hold the opinion that one must speak in tongues to be saved? Some of your posts really imply that; however, other times I can't tell.
MEE, do you hold the opinion that one must speak in tongues to be saved? Some of your posts really imply that; however, other times I can't tell.
NIC, yes I do believe that a person has to be born of the Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues. It's not my opinion, it is scripture.
Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:16-17) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:....
Acts 2:39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
He's still calling!
MEE
New In Christ
New Member
Thank you, MEE, for your response. But to be clear, you are saying not only that tongues are for today, but they are necessary for salvation. Correct?
In other words, if a person responds to a Gospel message and asks the Lord for forgiveness of sin and trusts Him for salvation, but dies in a car wreck on the way home from church, before ever speaking in tongues, that person will go to hell. Is this what you are saying?
Thank you.