Tony Campolo calls for Revolution in Baptist Churches.

shannonL · Jun 6, 2005

I meant one day pedophilia could be accepted as acceptable behavior in society . Not (NOT)

OldRegular · Jun 6, 2005

I got in on this late but some of Tony Campolo's ideas remind me of the Jesus Movement of the 70"s.

BillyMac · Jun 6, 2005

My words are not as eloquent as some in getting this point across, and it appears that much of what I have attempted to voice here has fallen on deaf ears with a denial of compassion. So with that out of the way, I defer to the words of Tony Campolo himself as he is the one that this thread is about regardless of what I think about this subject.

Understand too that many of you will read the following link in a hurried manner and never get the underlying meaning of what Tony is saying. Many will scan and miss it. Last night I attempted to read a portion of it and got only about 10% digested, but tonight in the foregoing couple of hours I read this article in detail. I am a slow reader as I read words instead of sentences or so I've been told and I read it to absorb what I read so that it will have meaning to me as if I am there with that person who is speaking. Many of you here will miss a great deal because you will not take the time to absorb it into your understanding. This piece was taken from a meeting in Chicago in 1996. I'm sure that a great deal more has been written since then of this man's ministry, but so far this is only what I have read. Here are some brief excerpts:

Tony speaks first here:

There are certain things that we have to say and that is this. First of all, as a sociologist, which is what I am by trade - I got into this analysis of homosexuality back when I was a faculty member at the University of Pennsylvania from '65 to '75, as I talked to my colleagues and I listened and I interviewed over 300 people who were homosexuals, I found that there were certain universal truths. I only interviewed male homosexuals so I can only say I studied that one group. Out of the 300 male homosexuals that I interviewed, I never met a homosexual who chose to be one. That, I have to say right up front. Okay? You can argue over the causes of homosexuality. Let me also add, nobody knows what causes homosexuality. I mean I know that you get these religious publications that talk about this cause and that cause and the other cause. Every social scientist that I know who has analyzed this problem say, we don't know what the causes are. There are those who talk about genetics. There are those who talk about biophysical. There are those that talk about sociological, psychological factors. Nobody knows. And those who are experts say, for the most part, there are a variety of factors that interact with each other to create homosexuality and it may even be that no two people are homosexuals for the same reason. We don't know what causes it. We know this - that at least for the males who I can attest to that I interviewed, the imprintation of the consciousness, the establishment of the orientation occurred so early in the psychosocial development of the individual that the individual never remembers having made a choice. That's important because I often hear rhetoric that says if you just pray and repent and turn away from this that God will honor you and all will be well. And that's the second point.

We also know that there are very, very few cases where people actually change their orientation. I interviewed significant numbers of homosexuals who, quote unquote, claim to be cures. And I asked them a simple question. Here's the question: Do you ever have sexual fantasies. Now, everybody in this group, except Dr. Horner, has sexual fantasies. Everybody here has sexual fantasies, you see. As a matter of fact, before this program is over, according to, to one study, the average male in this group will have three sexual fantasies. That's why I like speaking in chapel: Where else can you bring so much pleasure to so many people in such a short period of time. The truth is I asked the question of all my homosexuals that I interview and here it is: When you fantasize do you fantasize homosexually or heterosexually? I always get the same answer. We fantasize homosexually. Well, how can you say that you're no longer in a homosexual orientation? So I'm not convinced that you change as easily as some of the televangelists say you're going to change.

As a matter of fact, I would argue that, from my evangelical, conservative position, I'm going to argue that what we really need to do as a church is to provide a framework to help brothers and sister who want to remain celibate, to do so. We need to pray for them. We need to encourage them. We need to support them. We need to stand by them. I hope we get to the place where we can at least be as generous to people who are homosexuals as we have been to alcoholics. There was a time when the alcoholic couldn't get accepted into the church unless he stood up and said, I am no longer an alcoholic. Now, the alcoholic stands up and says, without shame, this is who I am. I struggle with this problem everyday, you see. And I wouldn't be able to do it unless, unless I was honest and open and had the support of other people.

The only reason why I don't like the analogy is because I'm not sure that I want to call this a sickness. So other than that, I basically am going to hold to that. So that's where we agree. We agree that it's not chosen. We also agree that in the overwhelming number of cases - please, there's always somebody out there that has changed - I am not saying things are impossible. I am just saying, my expectation is that people who are Christian and are homosexual are probably going to remain homosexual.

I call them to celibacy because I've got some problems. There's scripture. Here's a scripture: Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20, verse 3. You know these passages in the Old Testament. Now you have to understand that that's not a good case. Romans 1 is the good case. The Old Testament's not a good case because the Old Testament divides in the Pentateuch the scriptures into two kinds of law: Moral law and what we call purity codes. Purity codes are what we call the kosher laws. And if you read the Old Testament you will find there's a whole host of kosher laws, of what you can eat, what you can't eat, what kind of clothes you can wear. All of these things are spelled out.

There is no question but when Christ came and when Peter preached, purity codes were set aside. We no longer lived kosher like our orthodox Jewish friends do. Kosher laws, purity laws have been set aside. And those who are scholars, even the most conservative scholars, will argue with you that the statements in Leviticus that have to do with homosexuality fall into the purity code category. As a matter of fact it comes right after the passage that says that to touch the skin of a dead pig is an abomination to God, which puts the whole Super Bowl into question. So you know, we have to deal with that right up front.

Secondly, there's a passage in 1st Corinthians 6:9. Nobody knows what the word means. Interestingly enough, up until the fourteenth century it was translated as masturbation. Nobody knows what the word means in 1st Corinthians 6:9. There's a passage in 1st Timothy 1:10. That particular passage refers to a particular practice in which young boys were castrated in order to maintain their feminine-like, child-like characteristics for sexual purposes of exploitation. That no way falls into the concept of two consenting adults entering into a commitment with each other.

Which brings us down to Romans the first chapter, the twenty-sixth verse and following. And there, I think it's very clear that homosexual relationships of a physical nature, that people enter into these kinds of activities are living contrary to the teachings of scripture. My - there's arguments over what 1st Romans, starting in verse 26 really means and what it's really talking about.

My argument is this, you can argue over this interpretation or that interpretation but in Hermeneutics, which is the study of scripture, you have to take something very seriously and that's called the church. Roman Catholics understand this better than Protestants. There is this fellowship of believers that comes from the time of Christ up to the present time called the Church of Jesus Christ. I believe that the church speaks with authority. The only difference that I have with Roman Catholics is how they define church. They see it in very institutional forms. I see it as the people of God who love Jesus Christ and who are in a personal relationship with the Lord. Down through the ages, over almost two thousand years, the church has read Romans 1, people who knew the Apostle Paul personally, have written about what Paul meant when he wrote these passages in the duodece for instance, in the writings of the church fathers, you will find these particular statements. This is what Paul said. This is what Paul meant. When an interpretation of scripture has been around for more than 19 hundred years, I think it's a bit arrogant to come up and say, all the saints throughout history, the church historically is wrong. I've got a new interpretation of what Romans 1 means and I'm going to set the tradition of the church aside and I'm going to come up with a new interpretation. I think it does boil down for us Christians to Romans the 1st chapter, starting at the 26th verse. At that point, I turn it to my wife.
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Peggy Campolo, Tony's wife, speaks here:

Then, twenty years ago, my husband and I went to Provincetown, Massachusetts to go whale watching. We'd been warned that the charming village on the tip of Cape Cod was a mecca for lesbians and gays. I expected to ignore that, enjoy the whales and go home. But I fell in love with PTown and the people I met there changed my life. As a straight couple, Tony and I are usually in the minority when we visit the art galleries, shops and restaurants of Provincetown. But there's an acceptance there that makes me feel special. Both of us feel special and not weird. And when I consider that the people I meet there, especially the couples, would not be accepted in most of the places I come from, I feel a sense of sadness and of shame. On our first visit there I remember saying to Tony, what I feel here is something of what I've always imagined the church should be like and isn't. To be real about it, we who walk the streets of Provincetown don't even know each other and we certainly don't all love each other, but what I feel there makes me aware of the aching void there is in most places on this Earth where people do not accept each other, nor are they kind.

Tony and I love getting acquainted with folks in PTown and one afternoon Tony met a man who recognized him as a preacher and the two of them visited while I shopped. They talked theology and had a grand time. When I joined them and Tony and I prepared to take our leave, my husband tried to find out more about his new friend. The man wouldn't give him name, but simply said, "I was a priest in my former life and I used to love to talk about God but when I told people who I really was I couldn't be a priest anymore and I don't usually think about God anymore either but it's been great to talk to you my friend." He was gone before more could be said and some of his sadness remained with us. We once spent an entire afternoon as the only customers at a small, rooftop restaurant overlooking Cape Cod Bay. It was one of those lazy slow times that should be part of all our lives more often. The young man behind the bar came out and sat at our table with us and we talked of many things. Where's home for you, Tony asked. Too much time elapsed before the answer came. Oh, my folks live in Iowa but I can't go there anymore so home is just wherever I happen to be and I'm here now. Why can't you go home, Tony asked, really wanting to know. And the look he got in response seemed to indicate that my husband had spent most of his life on the moon.

Provincetown made me a wiser person. As I got to know the place I realized how narrow my straight life had been. I really didn't know any openly homosexual people and now I wanted to know some. It was rather like I had visited a foreign country, had a great time and come home anxious to make friends with people of that nationality. And slowly that began to happen as I let it be known that the status quo that existed for gay men and lesbians was unacceptable to me. We lived near the college, Eastern College, where Tony teaches, and from time to time a homosexual student would find his or her way to my door.

As I listened to their stories, a rage began to build in me. In all my life nothing had ever seemed so unfair. The lives these students had to live were terrible. Nobody understood. Their parents were unfair. The college was unfair and most of the church was unfair too. If they even knew some of these people hadn't told anybody before who they really were and frankly, I marvelled at how together they were able to be in spite of the forces marshalled against them.
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And then Tony again:

I am always moved by her, not just because she's my wife, because she speaks of pain she has felt in other people. My own stories are very much like hers. There was a boy in my high school, named Roger. It's not really his name. I'm just giving him the name Roger. We knew he was gay and the day he was most at pain was the day of gym because after we played some games we had to go into the shower and he would never go into the shower with us. When we left the shower, we took our wet towels and would sting his body by whipping the towels at him. As we walked past Roger we would whip the towels at Roger and sting him and we thought it was great fun to see this queer dance under our taunts. We thought it was fun to work on him. I wasn't there the day they shoved him into the corner of the shower and 5 guys urinated all over him. But that night Roger went home and went into his garage and he hung himself.

So all of us had guilt that I did not speak up and actually was part of those who hurt, who contributed to the death of a young man. And you say, you're a terrible person, I wonder how many of us, by words, by deeds, even without being aware of it have said things that have created pain and suffering.

I'm appalled at the Christian community, just appalled. I see leading evangelists selling these, this tape called the Gay Agenda. I don't know how many of you have seen that. It's sold hundreds of thousands of copies and made huge amounts of money for evangelists who drive Mercedes Benz. They bother me. Because they show the gay community doing obscene things in San Francisco, horrible parades, masturbating in public, doing filthy things and they say, "This is what the gay community is really like. Don't be deceived. Those people that want to teach in your high schools, that want to live in your community. This is what they are really like when you're not watching them."

I resent that for a very obvious reason. I wouldn't want anybody going down to Mardi Gras and filming the filthy behavior that goes on in New Orleans on Mardi Gras and saying, this is what Tony Campolo is like. This is what the heterosexual community is like. I would resent that. And that we sit back and let filth like that be perpetrated and that the anger and the hatred that those things create and all of it comes from the church.

That's what scares me. It comes from the church. I don't know what we're else about, but we are not to be about creating hatred toward the Rogers of this world, whatever our views are. And I am a conservative on this issue. I believe that same gender sexual intercourse, I don't know how many times I have to say it to get it clear, that's not what is at issue here. What is at trial here is not homosexuality. What's at trial here is the church of Jesus Christ.

[SNIP]

I am not approving of homosexual behavior. I am disapproving of a church that has forgotten how to love people that Jesus will never stop loving. And if you don't like it, join another club but don't call yourself a member of the church of Jesus Christ for we are the community of lovers and we love all kinds of people with all kinds of sin and that's your good fortune and mine too, for where would we be without such a church. And I want it to be the church that Christ wants it to be.

We are concerned because in this political climate there are politicians who are playing on the homophobia of people. They're tapping our deepest feelings and they're gleaning votes by playing on our hatreds and our fears.

Perfect love casteth out fear. We can't let it go on. We've got to stand up. We've got to say, we have differences of opinion. I'm conservative on this issue. She is not where I am on this issue. We both hold to the word of God. We're not going to get divorced but here we stand together. We will not allow others to take away the rights and the dignities of human beings. We just won't let you do it.

That's why when these referendums come up in state after state after state, we think that the Roman Catholic bishops were right when they said, we do not approve of this form of behavior but we will not allow anyone to take the rights away from those who are citizens of this country. Because I want to tell you something, after you say you can't live in my community, after you've said you can't teach in my school, after you've said you can't go to my church and after you've said you can't come to my college, after you've said all of this stuff - don't think for one moment it's going to wash when you smile that plastic smile that I see in the Christian community and say, "But we love you in the name of Jesus."

You cannot exercise hatred and discrimination and talk about love in the same breath without coming across as a shear hypocrite. So take your choice.

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Tony Campolo

BillyMac · Jun 6, 2005

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BillyMac:

Now.... having formed this background, let me address Joseph's question.

I live in a very conservative religious community where there are more Baptist churches than gas stations if that's a good indicator of dispersement. Approach any Baptist church whether Southern Baptist or not and ask about their beliefs for homosexuals attending their churches and they will tell you flatly that if they know that the homosexual is a practicing homosexual then they are not welcome in their services. Ask them too if they have an active ministry that witnesses Jesus Christ for the sins of the homosexual and again they will proclaim that they do not. Ask them if they will go to the gay bars and other areas frequented by homosexuals to witness Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and they will tell you that they would never darken the door of a gay bar for fear that someone might see them and assume that they were gay. Ask them to contribute to an AIDS ministry and they will flatly refuse based on the active sexual life of homosexuals. Ask them to contribute to an ex-gay ministry and I don't think they will, but I have no proof that they won't. I'll just say that it is unlikely given their discriminatory stand. Post on a secular forum in this area that Jesus loves homosexuals and wants them to be saved and you will get not only the slams from the homosexual community which you expect to get, but the Christians who will tell you they are Southern Baptists will cast you in the same light as supporting the homosexual lifestyle.

I'm telling you Joseph I've never seen so many hypocrites per capita in the Southern Baptist community here and it makes my heart sick to think that there is a fertile field for witnessing that is being virtually ignored for the cause of homophobia. Every time the requirement is voiced that they must be free of the lifestyle before Christians become involved.

When Jesus walked the streets of the Holy Land and people sought his healing power and grace, he never said to them to denounce their lifestyle and he would save them or he would not heal them. Some were healed first and THEN saved. That's the example that should be followed today.
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I'm telling you, Billy, that I grew up in a very conservative area and have never seen what you claim. I don't doubt that there are hateful attitudes towards homosexuals in the Southern Baptist Convention, or in any other denomination. I do have a problem with the following, however:

1. You are using personal experiences that are very general and vague which requires no evidence since it is was your experience (or your interpretation of said experience), and does not allow an opportunity for the "homophobes" to tell their side of the story, present rebuttals, or give their interpretation of said experience. This is the major problem that I have with citing personal experiences as evidence of the "homophobic" bigotry of an entire group of people, because ultimately, it is not very reliable (as somebody else has inevitably had a different experience) and leads to defamation.
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You know Joseph, if you really were to be fair on all sides, it would seem appropriate to invite comments from the homosexual community about how THEY are treated. I can only present what I know to be in my own life and from my own experiences. When I read Campolo I can relate what his message said to me. If that is laden with what you call the "general and vague" then that speaks to what YOU got out of it. That is not necessarily what I expressed nor what I attempted to get across.

Other than that in your number 1, I fully understand and can appreciate what you are saying which is that your opinion holds no more weight about Tony Campolo than mine does. You provide no proof. You just state how you believe. I see no difference between your view and mine.

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
2. The sad part of this kind of generalization that is engaged by you and also to a great extent, Tony Campolo, is that it is an attempt to paint all conservatives and Southern Baptists as ignorant, backwood bigots. This is wrong to do so. For the purpose of this conversation, I prefer not to deal in general, vague personal experiences when presenting evidence for a point of view. I would like to see some real evidence where I can look at the details of the event, and possibly get both sides of the story. For example, Tony Campolo's vision of a "subjective view of Jesus" was presented by me as evidence of his liberal, heretical, Un-Biblical theology.

Joseph Botwinick
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Joseph..... I am Southern Baptist, the same as you. And I am not calling you or me or any other Southern Baptist a bigoted backwoods ignorant anything. And neither is Tony Campolo. If on the other hand that is what you got out of it...... that's on you brother not on me.

Who was it that was supposed to go find the reference about what Tony had to say about homosexuals??? Didn't that person decided that couldn't be found??? What I've tried to do here is fill that gap, because from where I sit, I understand what he is saying and he is right in saying it. I cannot fault the man.

Now for all of us who are as learned as you, Joseph, would you mind explaining what you mean by an objective vs a subjective view of Jesus. you lost me there and I'm having a hard time trying to keep up with your reasoning.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 6, 2005

1. As to inviting homosexuals on the board to give their side, that is not my call. I don't own the board or make the rules. If I did, I would certainly invite them to discuss how they feel they are treated by Christians. But, I would not allow them to turn the conversation into a vague, anti-Christian diatribe about how homophobic the Southern Baptist Convention is. I would invite them to have an intelligent conversation about specific situations, and I would also want to try and get all sides of the story before I began condemning others. I think that is fair. Unfortunately, I don't see Campolo doing that.

2. As to the issue of vagueness, I see a lot of accusations being leveled at a whole group of people based on generalities and defamation by Campolo. If you actually see a specific case to which Campolo is referring and some evidence that he has presented of this, please point it out to me. Once you do that, perhaps we can even contact the folks who he is making the accusation about and get their side of the story, and perhaps even have an intelligent conversation about it and come to some informed conclusions. I think that is fair. Don't you?

3. Tony Campolo provides no proof either. Merely his opinion. There is no proof whatsoever that homosexuality is genetic.

4. That was Shannon. He tried and apparently failed, and retracted his statement about Campolo.

5. Objective = standard for truth (the Bible)
Subjective = no standard for truth (all truth is relative and is based on your own personal experience) We have an objective view of Jesus as it is presented in the Bible. Taking a subjective view of Jesus opens you up to heresy, because Jesus then become a creation after your own image instead of who we know him to be from the objective standard of truth in the Bible.

Hope this helps,

Joseph Botwinick

[ June 06, 2005, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Joseph_Botwinick ]

BillyMac · Jun 6, 2005

Originally posted by shannonL:
Rick Warren promotes breath prayers in the PDL is that a right or wrong practice maybe I should make this a new topic?
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Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I have not heard of this. My church went through his purpose plan, but I never actually read his book. Recently, I have found the Bible to be much more interesting and useful. Would you please cite your source on that claim?

Joseph Botwinick
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Next time your church does a study, you might try reading the book. You might find yourself enlightened.

Rick Warren and Contemplative Prayer

"With practice, you can develop the habit of praying silent 'breath prayers'" —Rick Warren, from his web site, pastors.com

"se 'breath prayers' throughout the day, as many Christians have done for centuries. You choose a brief sentence or a simple phrase that can be repeated to Jesus in one breath."
—Rick Warren, Purpose-Driven Life, p. 89.

"Breath prayers are a great way to keep in contact with our Heavenly Father throughout our day. Just repeat short heart-felt prayers, such as "You are my God," "I love you Lord," and "Thank You, Jesus." from pastors.com article by Tobin Perry

"Develop the habit of praying silent "breath prayers" for those you encounter."—Rick Warren, Sermons, 5-Week Plan

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Rick Warren

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 6, 2005

Originally posted by BillyMac:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by shannonL:
Rick Warren promotes breath prayers in the PDL is that a right or wrong practice maybe I should make this a new topic?
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Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I have not heard of this. My church went through his purpose plan, but I never actually read his book. Recently, I have found the Bible to be much more interesting and useful. Would you please cite your source on that claim?

Joseph Botwinick
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Next time your church does a study, you might try reading the book. You might find yourself enlightened.

Rick Warren and Contemplative Prayer

"With practice, you can develop the habit of praying silent 'breath prayers'" —Rick Warren, from his web site, pastors.com

"se 'breath prayers' throughout the day, as many Christians have done for centuries. You choose a brief sentence or a simple phrase that can be repeated to Jesus in one breath."
—Rick Warren, Purpose-Driven Life, p. 89.

"Breath prayers are a great way to keep in contact with our Heavenly Father throughout our day. Just repeat short heart-felt prayers, such as "You are my God," "I love you Lord," and "Thank You, Jesus." from pastors.com article by Tobin Perry

"Develop the habit of praying silent "breath prayers" for those you encounter."—Rick Warren, Sermons, 5-Week Plan

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Rick Warren [/QUOTE]I actually studied the pricipals of the PDC long before my Church ever even knew about them when I read his original book, The Purpose Driven Church. I just think my time is better spent reading the Bible now. But, thanks for the advice. I still have my copy of the book that our church bought, so maybe i'll check it out sometime.

Joseph Botwinick

BillyMac · Jun 6, 2005

Originally posted by shannonL:
R.Warren got the idea from a fellow named Brother Lawrence. A french monk who was a cook in a monastary. Lawrence wrote a book about it considered a classic by some I forget the name. It is in the PDL though.
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PAGE 88

Rick Warren quotes Brother Lawrence and advises us to “Practice His Presence”. What Rick Warren does not tell you is that Brother Lawrence was a lay Carmelite Order Roman Catholic which was one of the first Orders to elevate Mary to a status beyond what is written in the Bible. And there is nothing in Scripture to support the idea of “practicing His presence.” Brother Lawrence is not the only Catholic Mystic that Rick Warren endorses, or author he endorses who also promote mysticism and the Desert Fathers as you will see later.

FACTS ON BROTHER LAWRENCE:

1. His real name was: Nicholas Herman

2, He was lay Carmelite Monk. 1 The Carmelites go back to 1562 when Teresa of Avila took it to herself to reform the Carmelite Order instituted in 1154 on the Mount Carmel, Israel. The Order fell victim of a lack of discipline among its monks and nuns, Teresa resolved to revive it by restoring the primitive rule and emphasizing a contemplative life. John of the Cross joined forces with Teresa to reform the monks houses of the Order. Now besides the fact the Carmelites are a Roman Catholic order, here are some quotes from these Carmelites which are quite alarming and why New Agers just love them:

Here is what John of the Cross says about God:

“*'My beloved [God] is the high mountains, and the lovely valley forests, unexplored islands, rushing rivers'
John of the Cross

No God is not the high mountains, he is the creator of the high mountains. Anyone worshiping the mountains, thinking they are God is a pantheist.

Here is a quote from Basil Pennington, who wrote the preface for Brother Lawrence's Practicing the Presence of God:

*'[T]he soul of the human family is the Holy Spirit.'
Basil Pennington

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Rick Warren endorses “breath prayers” and invites us to pray as the Benedictine Monks do. Where did he get that concept? Not from the Bible. But I can tell you where he did get it. From none other than another Catholic mystic:

“Breath Prayers”

(Benedictine Monk John Main)

John Main promotes Universalism through his identification with The Benedictine Order. Here's a quote from John Main: "Benedict's utter faith in the divine Son of God casts into even sharper relief his insight that this divine Christ is to be found and even adored in other human beings” (RB 53.7). “His incarnate presence is not limited to Jesus of Nazareth, but remains among us in the monastic leaders, the sick, the guest, the poor, a list so inclusive as to signify Christ's presence in all whom one meets."” SOURCE

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/warren.htm &

http://www.basilica.org/meditationgrp.html
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Brother Lawrence

I don't know if these are the things that shannonL had in mind ot reference, but they weren't that hard to find.

BillyMac · Jun 6, 2005

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:

5. Objective = standard for truth (the Bible)
Subjective = no standard for truth (all truth is relative and is based on your own personal experience) We have an objective view of Jesus as it is presented in the Bible. Taking a subjective view of Jesus opens you up to heresy, because Jesus then become a creation after your own image instead of who we know him to be from the objective standard of truth in the Bible.

Hope this helps,

Joseph Botwinick
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Yes, of course, this makes sense....... objective and subjective.... for some reason I couldn't get a clear picture of those two in my head.

And Yes too for that subjective view is indeed through how I see Him rather than how the writers of the books of the Bible saw Him......

Yet..... how can we fully understand how they saw him??? I mean we can read their words as God has inspired and contemplate what was said and how it was said etc but how can we place ourselves in their heads and hearts to KNOW how it is that they actually saw Him??? I hope I'm making sense here..... it must be kind of like I spoke of when I talked about reading Tony Campolo's talk.

And when I spoke of Campolo I was taking an objective view of his subjective view and then expounding on my own subjective view ...... do I have it now???

shannonL · Jun 7, 2005

Billymac,

I already researched the stuff on Bro. L. and alot of the other stuff you mentioned about some of the things RW endorses in PDL. I just threw the question out there because I wanted to see some opinions. These are some of the very reasons I don't trust RW not do I dig the PDL book either. Some may pick out the some of the good things they may see in the book and throw away the rest. That is fine if you have spiritual discernment to pick up on some of the questionable things he slips in. Its not fine for joe shmoe in the pew (in my opinion)

I read some of what you posted about TC and homosexuals. I see what he is saying as far as how could we ever reach them if it seems as though we are trying to drive them out of our society.
However; the fact of the matter is their lifestyle is gross to most people. Why? Because it is unnatural. God said that. I'm simply saying Tony is trying to lay some of the blame off on those who believe what they do is wrong. Don't you think part of the price they pay for their partaking in such immoral behavior is to be looked upon with disdain by the average joe. Every sin has its price. A man leaves his wife for another woman somewhere down the road he is going to pay the price. There are consequences for our actions. Maybe the consequences for the lifestyle of the homosexual is being looked upon as odd or whatever. I'm not saying that it is right I'm saying its just a consequence of their actions.

Ben W · Jun 7, 2005

Billy, I really enjoyed what you posted on Peggy and Tony Campolo, I think that is a fair description outright.

BillyMac · Jun 7, 2005

Thank you Ben. To be clearly understood without being sharply criticized for taking a stand, whether people agree with the stand you take or not, means a great deal to me.

BillyMac · Jun 7, 2005

Originally posted by shannonL:

However; the fact of the matter is their lifestyle is gross to most people. Why? Because it is unnatural. God said that. I'm simply saying Tony is trying to lay some of the blame off on those who believe what they do is wrong. Don't you think part of the price they pay for their partaking in such immoral behavior is to be looked upon with disdain by the average joe. Every sin has its price. A man leaves his wife for another woman somewhere down the road he is going to pay the price. There are consequences for our actions. Maybe the consequences for the lifestyle of the homosexual is being looked upon as odd or whatever. I'm not saying that it is right I'm saying its just a consequence of their actions.
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shannon, I hope I didn't offend you by posting the RW and BL links. I was under the impression that you couldn't find those things to refer back to, so I tried to help out for the benefit of others who maybe didn't know what you saying as much as I.

However your last paragraph that you write is exactly the reason that TC says what he does about the attitudes of Christians toward homosexuals. Everyday of your life, if you are not secluded in your house day and night, you come in contact with people who do everything in their intimate lives that homosexuals do and I'm talking about heteros. I mentioned this earlier. It is no more gross to talk to, be around, interact with, shack hands with, even hug when appropriate given the proper time and event.... it is no more gross to do these things as it is gross to love a homosexual as yourself. The reason I suppose that it is not gross to interact with a hetero is that a hetero has no need to make his or her sexuality known. We see mannerisms and gestures and judge in our minds what that person does in his bed with another of his gender, and that thought is what turns us off to that person simply because it is unnatural. Yet it is equally unnatural for a man to perform those same acts with his wife and she with him and we don't think that is gross or we don't think about it at all because we don't know.

So why should we allow those mental thoughts to stand in the way of befriending homosexuals and accepting them as fallable human beings who need Jesus just as much as you or me or anyone else???

You speak of consequences of sin and various acts of sin, but what about the consequences of not befriending people and giving them the same treatment that you would give your hetero friends??? I believe as TC points out that these people are in emotional and psychic pain and hunger and thirst for someone to just treat them well. Do you know what a witness that is to them to be received without prejudice by those of us who put the love of Christ first to all men??? Love you neighbor as yourself and guess what??? The homosexual IS your neighbor. And yes tell them there is a way to have peace and tell them about Jesus, but first and foremost be a friend. That is in and of itself witness to Christ in you.
The world condemns people, Christians should not condemn but should witness life.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 7, 2005

Originally posted by BillyMac:
We see mannerisms and gestures and judge in our minds what that person does in his bed with another of his gender, and that thought is what turns us off to that person simply because it is unnatural. Yet it is equally unnatural for a man to perform those same acts with his wife and she with him and we don't think that is gross or we don't think about it at all because we don't know.
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Billy,

I was agreeing with you and you had to go and mess it up.

There is nothing unnatural about a man making love to his wife. I do agree, however, that we should show the love of Christ to those living in the abomination of homosexuality.

Joseph Botwinick

Jeffrey H · Jun 7, 2005

“We do not need an objective description of the Cross; we need a subjective understanding of Christ.
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Back to the original post quoted by Tony Campolo. We've fallen away from the main topic anyway...

The above quote is disturbing and is a growing trend in some Baptist churches to undermine the authority of Scripture. The orthodox salvation doctrines of 'substitutionary atonement' and 'imputed righteousness of Christ' are de-emphasized in favor of a more mystical and gnostic idea of salvation.

Forms of gnoticism were a problem in the early church and continue today.

Gold Dragon · Jun 7, 2005

Originally posted by Jeffrey H:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />“We do not need an objective description of the Cross; we need a subjective understanding of Christ.
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are de-emphasized in favor of a more mystical and gnostic idea of salvation.

Forms of gnoticism were a problem in the early church and continue today. [/QUOTE]Mystical and gnostic are very different. Where do you see gnosticism in this quote?

Mysticism was de-emphasized from Christianity recently by the influence of the modernism of the Enlightenment on Christianity. Fortunately, it is making a comeback.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 7, 2005

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jeffrey H:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />“We do not need an objective description of the Cross; we need a subjective understanding of Christ.
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are de-emphasized in favor of a more mystical and gnostic idea of salvation.

Forms of gnoticism were a problem in the early church and continue today. [/QUOTE]Mystical and gnostic are very different. Where do you see gnosticism in this quote?[/QUOTE]I found this about gnosticism:

Gnosticism is not factual, intellectual, rational knowledge, such as is involved in mathematics and physics; that would have been more accurately represented by the Greek word "episteme." Rather, Gnosticism involves the relational or experiential knowledge of God and of the divine or spiritual nature within us.
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Gnosticism - Ancient and Modern

In other words, instead of having an objective knowledge of God that we find in the Bible, we are encouraged to rely on our experiences and subjective feelings about God. This leads to two things:

1. Creating a god in our own image (false god).

2. Spiritual elitism that says that they are the only ones who truly understand God:

Gnostics believe that they have secret knowledge about God, humanity and the rest of the universe of which the general population was unaware.
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Spiritual Elitism

It looks like what TC is teaching to me.

Joseph Botwinick

Gold Dragon · Jun 7, 2005

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I found this about gnosticism:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Gnosticism is not factual, intellectual, rational knowledge, such as is involved in mathematics and physics; that would have been more accurately represented by the Greek word "episteme." Rather, Gnosticism involves the relational or experiential knowledge of God and of the divine or spiritual nature within us.
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Gnosticism - Ancient and Modern

In other words, instead of having an objective knowledge of God that we find in the Bible, we are encouraged to rely on our experiences and subjective feelings about God. [/QUOTE]While this is true about gnosticism and mysticism is characteristic of the gnosis in gnosticism, this isn't uniquely identifying of gnosticism and it wasn't why Gnosticism was considered heretical.

CARM : Gnosticism

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
It looks like what TC is teaching to me.
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I believe it is incorrect to equate all mystics with gnosticism. Sort of like the fallacy of saying all Germans are Nazis or all white southerners are racist.

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 7, 2005

It is correct to state the TC is teaching subjective views of God, which is a form of Gnositicism, and is heresy which underminse the objective authority of scripture.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph_Botwinick · Jun 7, 2005

Quoted from the CARM link:

A more detailed Gnostic theology is as follows. The unknowable God was far too pure and perfect to have anything to do with the material universe which was considered evil. Therefore, God generated lesser divinities, or emenations. One of these emanations, Wisdom desired to know the unknowable God. Out of this erring desire the demiurge an evil god was formed and it was this evil god that created the universe. He along with archons kept the mortals in bondage in material matter and tried to prevent the pure spirit souls from ascending back to god after the death of the physical bodies. Since, according to the Gnostics, matter is evil, deliverance from material form was attainable only through special knowledge revealed by special Gnostic teachers. Christ was the divine redeemer who descended from the spiritual realm to reveal the knowledge necessary for this redemption. In conclusion, Gnosticism is dualistic. That is, it teaches there is a good and evil, spirit and matter, light and dark, etc. dualism in the universe.
What we know about Gnosticism is gained from the writings of Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Origen, and some later manuscripts discovered in the eighteenth century such as the "Codex Askew, Codex Bruce, the Berlin Gnostic Codes and, most recently, the Nag Hammadi collection."1 Nag Hammadi is a town in Upper Egypt near ancient Chenoboskion and 13 codices discovered were discovered about 1945.
The danger of gnosticism is easily apparent. It denies the incarnation of God as the Son. In so doing, it denies the true efficacy of the atonement since, if Jesus is not God, He could not atone for all of mankind and we would still be lost in our sins.
There is debate whether or not this is a Christian heresy or simply an independent development. The evidence seems to point to the later. Nevertheless, the Gnostics laid claim to Jesus as a great teacher of theirs and as such requires some attention. It is possible that 1 John was written against some of the errors that Gnosticism promoted.
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http://www.carm.org/heresy/gnosticism.htm

How do you think they came to all these absurd conclusions about who God is? Do you think they got these ideas from the objective standard of truth we call the Bible, or did they come to these conclusions through a subjective understanding of God?

Joseph Botwinick

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