TOO FREE or not TOO FREE, that is the question

rc,

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Is this scripture referring to "all" or just "some"?

It seems to me that for a person to be "without excuse" it is necessary for him to be first held accountable for something for which he may then "make an excuse".

What do you think?

 

Hi Michael...it is good to meet you.

You seem to be under the option that when the Bible calls all to Christ that all can come. Your claim is that if the Bible calls all then it would only seem fair that all men would have a chance to come. Your posted verse are indeed addressed to ALL. ALL as in the whole world.

one verse you posted was...
Dt 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

This is a great verse that shows God inviting all to come to Him just as you said.

You have added romans 1 to this list of verses..”God is revealed”.

One could also add John 1...”the Light came into a dark world.”
don’t forget john 3 16....God so loved the world..that he gave.

There is no argument from most calvinist that God indeeds loves mankind and would desire all for salvation. This is only part of the story Micharel.

NO MAN COMES!! God invites all...yet none come.

look in john 1 when you have time..the light came..the world did not want Him.

read john 3..again...nic did not understand what Christ was telling him. Why?? Nic had a sin nature.

Now look at romans 1....what you just posted


    16For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,
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The Gospel has come...and is being preached..

    17For in the Gospel a righteousness which God ascribes is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed through the way of faith that arouses to more faith]. As it is written, The man who through faith is just and upright shall live and shall live by faith.(A)
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That which is preached tells of faith in a righteous God...where man shall find LIFE.

    18For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.
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Part of the gospel is telling men about the wrath of God....and paul preached this too.

    19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
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Before the gospel came...God had planted the idea of God on all mens consciousness

    20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)
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So men should know about God...by hearing...or by just looking at the world...or listening to their God given inner consciousness. MAN HAS NO EXCUSE!!!

So...you are right...all do have a chance..all should know of God...all should come.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<YET >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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<<<<<<NNE COMES TO GOD>>>>>>>

    21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
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NNE COMES TO GOD!!! all are called...no one comes.

    22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
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FOOLS they are


    23And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
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they worship other things...but not God.


In Christ..James

 

People argue over the issue in vain. It's a nonissue, really

I have free will, but it is limited to the laws of the universe. Since God created the laws of the universe, some will assert that I don't really have free will at all. They're right. So am I. If you tell me we both can't be right, you'd be right too.

 

Usually the only time im aware that i have freewill is when I mess up... when things are going good or great it usually feels rite like its destiny.. I know it sounds strange..but true..

 

Ah pragmatism at it's best.

You have a free will but it is not "at liberty" to do everything. I would assume you are a Christian so you do have that liberty now but as a natural man you are enslaved to you will. Your will as a natural man doesn't "free" you but enslaves you to the bondage of sin. You freely choose yes but what do you chose as a natural man? Think Biblically now and not humanistically.

The analogy is just fine. One has the ability and the other doesn't. That was my point. If you are to simple not to get around the two not being the same species then you miss the point. Fine, take man for the example. One does have the ability and the other doesn't.

In Romans 1:18 you have a fault in what the context is saying.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


What can be "known" to ALL men here? God has revealed Himself BY the creation. His eternal power and even His Godhead. But what is the "excuse" that is being implied? God's salvific plan? NO! This passage is just simply implying that God has revealed HIMSELF so that man can not say that He doesn't EXIST. That's all. This has nothing to do with salvation at all. But it does greatly show the utmost depravity of man if you read the whole context.

Romans 1:21-32 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Man in his natural state in knowing God exists...
He STILL worships the creation and NOT the creator! Why?

Romans 8:5-8 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

In the Greek Paul actually says "The flesh mind" it is a noun sense, there is no VERB "to set" same with the "spirit mind" there is no verb there either. Man is at enmity with God and suppresses God's existence and glorifies himself (the creation) rather than God.

 

Hi back-at-you, Jarthur001

Yes, let's look.

Jn 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

"Every man enlightened" is a good thing for every man. He certainly created all life and sustains it, whether one realizes it or not.

Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Maybe no one realizes He is the "true" light? Maybe the world on the whole did not know Him.

Jn 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

His own did not receive Him. However, "some" of his own must surely have received Him - I think.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Oh, good, some did receive him. Probably some of His own were among these, but undoubtably not the whole world.

Jn 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

It looks like those who did receive Him, received Him because it was God's will. Indeed no one can come to God unless God wills it. There is no argument there.

Jn 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

I wonder why the Father has to "seek" those He wills to come to Him. Surely he has not "misplaced" those He is shining His light on, has He? Maybe this is just a figure of speech. Or, maybe He is drawing those who will come to Him before they actually come. The ones who come to Him are His and the ones who don't are not His. That is very Biblical IMO.

I don't have any problem saying what the Bible says, to the extent I understand what the Bible says. No doubt, I have a lot to learn. But, I'm trying to make sure I get my understanding (doctrine) from the Bible and not trying to make my Bible interpretation match my doctrine.

 

My dear brothers and sisters,

I think quite often the endless internet postings on a board such as this can trivialize Christianity into a debate of Relitavism.

Let us never forget that there is Absolute Truth. I may have it or you may have it. Or perhaps neither of us have it!

But if we stop in our quest of finding that truth and then defending the same we are lost men and blown with every wind of doctrine.

If in this blather of postings here our goal is not to find and defend truth from God's Holy Word then our time is wasted and we are bad stewards of God's gift of time on this earth, and unfit for his eternal work.

This being said, please allow me to lay out in my humblest way my thoughts on this issue of Free Will vs. God's Will.

It is remarkable how the very clear and concise scriptures are so often pushed aside for surmisings. (I am not trying to be cheeky by using such plain verses to such learned minds. Forgive me if it seems that way)

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Romans 3:11-12
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

..Please allow me to head off the certain outcry for blood against Sovereign Grace Theology because of the word..."received" in this passage.

The old English word for "receive" does not necessarily mean the same as the word "receive" means in today's everday speech.

I love the King James and it's all I have ever used from my youth. I memorized it so it is logical to continue using it. However having grown up with KJV'ers my whole life it never ceases to amaze me why they always want to use a modern dictionary with a book that is hundreds of years its senior.
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Which illustration below puts the crown of glory on the divine head of Christ more fully??? be honest people!!!

#1. Free Will... I heard the preaching of the word of God and I responded and asked Christ to save me. That day I accepted Christ into my heart.

or

#2. God's Will...I heard the preaching of the Word of God and the Faith of His Son overwhelmed me opening my eyes to the truth of His Word. The Righteousness of Christ was imputed to me changing my will into his desire, while at the same time changing me from foe to a friend of God. With my eyes finally opened I begged God for mercy and repented of my sin. Hallelujah!


One of these examples represents Humanism cloaked in Neo-Evangelicalism. It's thread runs down through the centuries in the exact way that Spurgeon saw and then predicted it would.
-A Warning to all Churches - Jan 1855-

-Pelagialism
-Semi-Pelagialism (or Baxterianism if you like)
-Roman Catholiscism

I don't think Spurgeon was wrong. I see evangelicals falling to Roman Catholiscism by the droves. I dare any Baptist to pull out the Baptist Confession of 1689 or 1644 and read it and see just how far they are away from being Baptistic in their doctrine.(You don't believe in creeds eh. That's unBaptistic as well. Perhaps we are more learned than our forefathers were.)

Lo and behold... McDonalds is now selling Whoppers!

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bc1644.htm
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html


I do alot of preaching to Priests and Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church and their neo-Catholic doctrine doesn't look much different than what I see at our local Independant Baptist Churches. It's time for a wake-up call folks.

Baptists have tried to distance themselves from the Reformers for so long they are playing right into the hands of the Pope. Now they are trying to distance themselves from the ecumenical "easy believism" without moving back to Calvinism, but there is just nowhere to go. There is no middle ground. Our message is now nebulus. Our people don't know what they believe anymore.

I sat through an Independant, Fundamental, Premillennial, KJV, Baptist sermon a few Sundays ago and the preacher tried to distinguish their church from the easy believism bunch by saying that you must do more than believe..."you must really believe".

I didn't know if I should cover my sons ears so he could't hear this meaningless barage or if I should cover my mouth to keep from standing in the pew against this humanism. How much power will we lose before God's judgement comes down on us.

Please don't judge Free Grace by some sour, old Calvinist your father knew. God please give us Grace to preach the Gospel like the confessed Calvinists of Old. To weep over souls and plead with them to repent...as did Jonathon Edwards, George Whitfield and Charles Spurgeon.

Even if you disagree with me, I'll still love you if you are a brother in Christ. I only ask that you find out what you believe and know it from the BOOK! Then don't be afraid to preach it to your brothers as if it is truth. And don't be afraid to challenge it too!

I spend this hour at 1:00 a.m. in hopes of encouraging some of you as I have been encouraged quietly reading some of your posts.

God bless His children. Amen

Remnant

 

Michael,


I mainly want to reply to this statement..

"But, I'm trying to make sure I get my understanding (doctrine) from the Bible and not trying to make my Bible interpretation match my doctrine."


You are doing the very thing we all should do. I think most apply the Bible in the same way. Calvinism and Arminianism are only blueprints for study. You should never place these blueprints over truth that is found when you build your doctrine.

Now it is true that both man that built these models study the Word deeply. It is also true that most all great men of God from that time on study each model in light of what the Bible says. It will be hard for us to study the Bible and not lean one way or another or not learn from other great men of God that have been down this path before.

I for one, and I think most Calvinist are like this, do not take any "mans" word. The reason i do not, is these men though great are just men as I. There has been no better writer then Spurgon. The man had a gift for words. Yet he is only a man. If his gifted words do not line up with the Bible kick them out and hold to the Bible. Yet if they do, Spurgon can say it much better then I and does so.

One man I like very much and have quoted a few times on here is John Piper. But there are a few things I do not agree with Piper on. I'm not a "piper" follower that just takes on all things the man says like a robot. I read piper for he is a good writer. The same can be said about John Calvin. Calvinist are looked at as program, under a spill, non thinking, people that do not follow the Word, but rather follow mens writings...as you seem to suggest above.

My point is.....

We all should be learning each day. The fact that we take the time to post on this forum suggest that we have studied it or want to know the truth. I can not speak for all Calvinist. But the ones i know 1st hand and many of the ones i read on this forum all hold to these teachings for they have taken the time to study and look verse up in the Bible to MAKE SURE it is what the Bible says. I know each of us have read things by others that we just do not hold to. That reading comes from both great writers and those that have posted here. We are not in some robotic spill, but rather have our own minds that think and have study the Bible just as you do.


Bottom line....It matters little if John Calvin said it...but only matters of its found in the Bible.


In Christ...James

 

I 2nd that...do i hear a 3rd?

 

KJB,

Wow did I confuse you! ... sorry.

I clicked and pasted to fast. Didn't mean for your name to be in the post, I was refering to the reply TO YOU... I have no prob with your reply at all.

Sorry about the mix up. Actually I was just clarifying your point. Not in any way arguing against it.

 

quote:
Just because a call is given for people to repent, it in no way implies they are capable to repent.

Let us not forget what the purpose of the call to repent is to begin with. The purpose of the call is to gather the elect! THEY are the only ones who "hear" the Gospel call!

As Paul said "I endure all things for the sake of the elect." Why not for the non-elect? Why is Paul so exact in the wording here? If you look to the context you will see.

"that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

WHat does that mean? That "they" (the elect) may obtain salvation. What about the non-elect? They don't want "the" salvation "which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." They may want a "sort of salvation" but it is not "this" salvation. Am I to regret that the non-elect are not saved when God has purposed not to? I hear some gasps. I am to praise God! Does God ever regret punishing sinners for their sin? I will praise him not that I was chosen above another (that is pride) but that God ALONE is Wise and He alone is qualified to make that decision and no matter who He has chosen or has not chosen I am to submit to His will. But what if my children are not elect? (I have three) Shall I murmur against God "if" I knew that to be true? How many parents would?

It comes down to a choice, a will. I am ultimately a Christian because of God's choice/will or my choice/will.

In Christ
Brian H.