Torture and Piracy

[matt wade]

I have great respect for John McCain because of his service to our country. Obviously I voted for him. However, I disagree with him, and my own Senator Graham, on this issue as well as his stand on immigration.

You are entitled to your opinion but you are also entitled to be wrong just like McCain.

Just as those who voted for Obama are responsible for his murdering of unborn children, you are responsible for John McCain's stance on torture. Since you voted for John McCain, you condoned his stance on torture.

 

[SeekingTruth]

Just as those who voted for Obama are responsible for his murdering of unborn children, you are responsible for John McCain's stance on torture. Since you voted for John McCain, you condoned his stance on torture.

False analogy. McCain is not in the Executive branch of government. He has no authority to enforce his opinions on anyone. However, the czar can and has aided the cause of abortionists before and since his installation as president. :BangHead:

 

[carpro]

I could produce someone that has been waterboarded who says it is torture and you would still come up with some excuse for why they aren't an authority.

Could be.

Try it and see.

 

[rbell]

I love it when people don't define their terms.

Ed said in another thread that turning on the lights at night where combatants are incarcerated is "torture."

Have to be careful what you agree to...pretty soon, we'll be leaving dinner mints on Abdullah al-habbinobbi's pillow.

 

[Alcott]

... I'd also be dead wrong from a Christian perspective.

I know this is chasing a rabbit off the trail started by the OP, but "from a Christian perspective," how about this case?...

On a well-known Dragnet episode from the 60's (color) series, the officer are on a case in which a bomb threat has been called in for 'a school' in a certain area. Friday and Gannon find the one who called it in and recognize that he is a neo-Nazi. They interrogate him to find which school and where the bomb was placed (supposing there really is a bomb; and he did have access to explosives). They get nowhere, but notice he often asks what time it is, and usually they don't tell him. But believing hope may be running out, Friday tells him it is some time later (10 minutes?) than the real time. And then he tells them where the bomb was located, 'because it's already gone off by now.' Immediately the bomb squad is dispatched to the location, and they manage to find and disarm the bomb just in time.

So-- 'from a Christian perspective,' was it wrong for the police to have lied to the man in the last-chance effort to find the bomb? and would there be any justification to the use of any kind of torture? IOW does a mass-murdering bigot's right to be free from torture come before a school full of children and teachers? (he said the reason for the bomb was because the school was being integrated starting that day)

 

[windcatcher]

I know this is chasing a rabbit off the trail started by the OP, but "from a Christian perspective," how about this case?...

On a well-known Dragnet episode from the 60's (color) series, the officer are on a case in which a bomb threat has been called in for 'a school' in a certain area. Friday and Gannon find the one who called it in and recognize that he is a neo-Nazi. They interrogate him to find which school and where the bomb was placed (supposing there really is a bomb; and he did have access to explosives). They get nowhere, but notice he often asks what time it is, and usually they don't tell him. But believing hope may be running out, Friday tells him it is some time later (10 minutes?) than the real time. And then he tells them where the bomb was located, 'because it's already gone off by now.' Immediately the bomb squad is dispatched to the location, and they manage to find and disarm the bomb just in time.

So-- 'from a Christian perspective,' was it wrong for the police to have lied to the man in the last-chance effort to find the bomb? and would there be any justification to the use of any kind of torture? IOW does a mass-murdering bigot's right to be free from torture come before a school full of children and teachers? (he said the reason for the bomb was because the school was being integrated starting that day)

While generally it is wrong to lie, I'd say in this case, I'd take my chances with willful disobediance for the greater good of saving lives: The criminal act by the perp is greater than any desire to build a relationship with him based on trust. I think and trust the understanding of my heavenly Father in such a necessity as the lie is not to God but to one who has already committed a purposeful, life threatening criminal act with out regard for man or God.

Jesus finished his work at the cross so I need not fear for my salvation: If his blood is not applied to my heart then one little lie would make little difference with all the other sinning and sin which I would be guilty of.

But this does appear to smack of hypocrisy, doesn't it?

 

[blackbird]

I love it when people don't define their terms.

Ed said in another thread that turning on the lights at night where combatants are incarcerated is "torture."

Have to be careful what you agree to...pretty soon, we'll be leaving dinner mints on Abdullah al-habbinobbi's pillow.

While in high school-----my daddy would wake me up with the "turnin' on of the lights" at 5:30am-------time for school------now---THAT was turture!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But turning on the lights for the prisoner--------NAW!!!!!!!

 

[BigBossman]

My personal favorite method for obtaining information is the old TV cop method. Just put me in the room with the terrorist & a phonebook.

If you take a cloth or something that can be wrapped around your head, & stand in the shower. Douse your head with that cloth wrapped around your head. You'll get an idea of what its like.

It gives you the sensation that you are drowning, nothing more.

Since Obama has moved most of Gitmo's detainees to American jails, I almost wish I was the warden one of them. I would ensure that the detainees are separated & put in with the worst of the worst. If you scatter the terrorists into a general jail population that is divided by prison gangs, I garantee you they won't last very long. As strange as it sounds, even prison gangs a code of ethics. However, it is a very warped code of ethics.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

If waterboarding is not torture, then I guess we and our WWII allies owe apologies for the Japanese that were convicted of torture and war crimes for doing it.

Besides, people will tell you what you want to hear when being tortured. Not a way to extract valid information. Instead they will say anything to stop the torture.

 

[OldRegular]

Just as those who voted for Obama are responsible for his murdering of unborn children, you are responsible for John McCain's stance on torture. Since you voted for John McCain, you condoned his stance on torture.

You show your ignorance of politics. There were two candidates with a chance to win the presidency, though McCains were slight.

McCain is a patriot who obviously loves his country. He basically believes in free enterprise though he is big government like President Bush. He is also strongly pro-life.

Obama was and is still relatively unknown with no accomplishments in his political life other than getting his opposition for the Illinois Senate kicked off the ballot. But that is Daly's Chicago politics. Obama is a socialist and likely a racist and an America hater given:

1. He listened to America hater, socialist, and racist Jeremiah Wright for 20 years.

2. His wife publicly stated that America is a mean country.

3. He basically admitted his socialism to Joe the Plumber on national TV.

4. He is a rabid unborn and just born baby killer.

5. His running mate motor mouth and pea brain Joe Biden was of the same mold. In his 30+ years in the Senate what has he accomplished. Nothing but slop at the government trough.

So who did you vote for? I proudly voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin. I still disagree with John McCain on whether the inmates at Gtmo were tortured, on immigration, and on cap and trade. Furthermore, because I vote for someone doesn't mean I turn off my brain like the democrats do.

 

[OldRegular]

If waterboarding is not torture, then I guess we and our WWII allies owe apologies for the Japanese that were convicted of torture and war crimes for doing it.

If you believe you owe the Japanese an apology then by all means go there and apologize. I suggest a slow boat!

Besides, people will tell you what you want to hear when being tortured. Not a way to extract valid information. Instead they will say anything to stop the torture.

Is this conclusion based on your personal experience or your superior powers of logic or on following the lead of the "uber" leftist America haters?

 

[LadyEagle]

I have an idea and I've no doubt the libbies and Obama would go along with it: Let's do nothing. Let's not capture or interrogate anyone. Let's not kill anyone or imprison anyone. Let's not worry about keeping America safe or anyone anywhere safe from beheaders or criminals. Let's call all our troops home and let's not have any military. Let's not have any CIA or FBI or police or law enforcement. Let's just let the chips fall where they may. After all, Jesus said to turn the other cheek.

 

[carpro]

If waterboarding is not torture, then I guess we and our WWII allies owe apologies for the Japanese that were convicted of torture and war crimes for doing it.

Besides, people will tell you what you want to hear when being tortured. Not a way to extract valid information. Instead they will say anything to stop the torture.

Show us where waterboarding is codified in U.S. Law.

Military law does not apply to those that are accused of "waterboarding". They are civilians.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

If you believe you owe the Japanese an apology then by all means go there and apologize. I suggest a slow boat!

I suggest you address the point.

Is this conclusion based on your personal experience or your superior powers of logic or on following the lead of the "uber" leftist America haters?

I know you are in awe of my superior intellect. Thanks! :thumbs:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Show us where waterboarding is codified in U.S. Law.

Show me where I said it was.

Military law does not apply to those that are accused of "waterboarding". They are civilians.

So that makes it right? And who said anything about military law?

 

[Ed Edwards]

I have an idea and I've no doubt the libbies and Obama would go along with it: Let's do nothing. Let's not capture or interrogate anyone. Let's not kill anyone or imprison anyone. Let's not worry about keeping America safe or anyone anywhere safe from beheaders or criminals. Let's call all our troops home and let's not have any military. Let's not have any CIA or FBI or police or law enforcement. Let's just let the chips fall where they may. After all, Jesus said to turn the other cheek.

Ah yes, the Logic of Blather :type:

Did I mention I believe we aught to blow away convicted terrorists? All I called for was EFFICIENCY in Gorvernment spending on Intel collection. Yet some would turn on me trying to show I violated the BB rule which said "you probably ain't a X-istian if you ain't a'gin abortion". Well I'm against abortion. But I am NOT in lock step with the Vatican.

Individuals have to 'turn the other cheek' - Governments do not.

 

[JustChristian]

Reminds me of a joke:

Four people are in a room, a $50 is dropped into a room. Which of the following catch the $50 bill?

The Easter Bunny
Santa Claus
The Great Pumpkin
A blind man

Answer: the blind man, the other three are fictional characters.

The answer to your question is:
1. "Why it is ok to cap 3 teenage Somali pirates in order to save one merchant marine captain ... ?"

--this actually happened

2. but " ... it's not ok to waterboard a known terrorist in order to save thousands of American lives"?

-- this is never known to have happened - it is a fiction

Again: the collection of Intel Information by torture is an inefficient use of government resources. Managers who let their people use torture to collect Intel should be replaced by people who are more efficient. Also: torture is not nice -- torture should not be, cannot be used, by any REAL member of any of the book religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. The main source of torture is the atheist/agnostic states/religions.

Accountability for Torture

Defending human rights is central to all our faiths. That's why we need to demand accountability for torture authorized and carried out by the US government.

It is not enough to just move on; possible war crimes require a full investigation and real consequences, or we're bound to make the same mistakes again.

Attorney General Eric Holder:

It is time to appoint an independent prosecutor to investigate who knew about and authorized the Bush administration’s torture policies. If the evidence warrants, prosecutions should occur.

Nobody is above the law -- that includes high-ranking government officials. And we must look back to make sure this never happens again in order to move our country forward.

Please appoint an independent prosecutor to restore credibility at home and abroad and to give us an America we can be proud of again.

 

[OldRegular]

JC

You are pathetic. Apparently Mrs obama joins you in not being proud of America. I suggest you take a trip to one of the socialists countries you love so much. Pick one you can be proud of like France!

 

[Ed Edwards]

JC

You are pathetic. Apparently Mrs obama joins you in not being proud of America. I suggest you take a trip to one of the socialists countries you love so much. Pick one you can be proud of like France!

FOUL: condemning JC as 'pathetic' on the basis of your misunderstanding of Mrs Obama is not nice but is un-Christian and Un-American. Be careful what you do in private, it will be made public :-(

 

[carpro]

Show me where I said it was.

So that makes it right? And who said anything about military law?

Duck, dodge, weave...:laugh: