Total Depravity Exposed

[skypair]

Martin -- hope the surgery went well. raying:

==The context determines what kind of drawing is occuring. So please, explain how you have not backed yourself into universalism.

That's precisely where you get your misinformation. Basically, if you let words like "all" mean different things in different places/contexts, you are bound to have a theology built on sand.

That appears to be the whole confusion here with John 6:44 and 12:32. You say I am "backed into the corner of universalism" because you make "draw" mean "save" in 6:44, 6:65! It is the "drawing" that brings them near and the "coming" that is their salvation.

"No one comes to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him [the one who COMES] up on the last day" (Jn 6:44).

Who comes to Jesus? The one drawn. Notice that it is because a person is drawn that they come.

Yes, but not everyone who is drawn comes, martie. ALL are drawn (12:32) --- only those who COME are raised. Don't change the meaning of "draw" -- it is not necessary. All are drawn -- some come.

You asked why a person can know there is a God (etc) and still not want to live eternally. I answered. Satan and demons are fallen angels. That means there was a time when they were not fallen.

You changed your proposition but I forgive you.

Given all they knew, an had seen, they still chose to sin. Mankind has been given plenty of light. Nobody is without excuse. Yet every person, of their own free will, rejects Christ.

Infants haven't. The retarded haven't. We are, of course, assuming a thinking person, right?

Therefore to save anyone God must first work in that person's life. Just holding out an offer would not work since no man seeks the true God on their own.

"Drawing" involves many attempts by God to work in a person's life. The first attempt is creation, Rom 1:19-20. If a person allows themselves to be drawn, they will receive more light. Imagine, if you will, Moses being drawn by the burning bush. All that was was a freak of nature that caused Moses, an unbeliever, to go aside and see what this meant. But suppose Moses hadn't gone aside.

Maybe you need to go back and show me these verses that you claimed contradict Romans 3:10-12 as well?

Gladly -- Psa 14:1-4. 14:4 specifically says that God is talking about "the workers of iniquity." That tells us that God is talking about unsaved adults. Infants do NOT work iniquity. Nor do they say in their hearts "there is no God." Like DL, you are trying to misappropriate a passage without its context!

skypair

 

[Dale-c]

No man seeks after God flies in the face of contless Scriptures from God to man to seek Him.

In order for that to be true, there must be countless verses that say that man can/will seek God.
It says the opposite.
Are we commanded to seek Him? Yes.
Will we seek Him without His intervention? No.

 

[skypair]

Will we seek Him without His intervention? No.

But thank God His intervention begins with the creation we see around us (Rom 1) and includes the awareness of eternity in our hearts (Ecc 3:11). Then, of course, there is the Bible, the "incorruptible seed" (1Pet 1:23). That was quite an intervention, wasn't it! And don't forget Jesus! Do you imagine that men don't look into these things? That all men aren't "drawn" to Christ by these (John 12:32)??

Oh, and BTW, 3:12 says "I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life." So apparently man CAN do good according to God's standard (no good in them BUT to do good in his life) in spite of what the Calvinists say.

skypair

 

[webdog]

Exactly. God leaves no man to themselves. This is why man is accountable.

 

[Martin]

Martin -- hope the surgery went well.

==Thanks. It did. Its the recovery that stinks. :laugh:

That appears to be the whole confusion here with John 6:44 and 12:32. You say I am "backed into the corner of universalism" because you make "draw" mean "save" in 6:44, 6:65! It is the "drawing" that brings them near and the "coming" that is their salvation.

==Drawing is not equal to salvation it is unto salvation. In John 6:44 those who are drawn "will" come (effective drawing). How do I know this? Because those He draws (44a), He raises (44b).

"No one comes to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him [the one who COMES] up on the last day" (Jn 6:44).

==The one who is drawn is the one who comes. They come because they are drawn (6:44). They come because they are given (6:37). They come because they are taught of the Father (6:45). They come because they are His sheep (10:27).

Yes, but not everyone who is drawn comes, martie. ALL are drawn (12:32) --- only those who COME are raised. Don't change the meaning of "draw" -- it is not necessary. All are drawn -- some come.

==I just can't agree with that. Sorry. When I look at John 6, I can't agree with the idea that all are called. I don't think John 12:32 is refering to the same type of drawing as refered to in John 6:44. Why? Because in John 6:44 the drawing is effective (the one who is drawn comes and is raised). John 12:32 could be talking about the universal call of the Gospel which is offered to all but which only the elect will accept (Matt 22:14). Others have understood it to be talking about "all men" in a more generic sense (ie..not every single individual but men of all nations, etc).

Infants haven't. The retarded haven't. We are, of course, assuming a thinking person, right?

==Are they not born in sin? Do you believe that every person comes into this world with a sinful nature (bent away from God)?

"Drawing" involves many attempts by God to work in a person's life. The first attempt is creation, Rom 1:19-20. If a person allows themselves to be drawn, they will receive more light. Imagine, if you will, Moses being drawn by the burning bush. All that was was a freak of nature that caused Moses, an unbeliever, to go aside and see what this meant. But suppose Moses hadn't gone aside.

==I can't suppose that because it was God's plan for Moses to notice (etc). Just as God had a plan for Paul and Jeremiah.

Gladly -- Psa 14:1-4. 14:4 specifically says that God is talking about "the workers of iniquity." That tells us that God is talking about unsaved adults.

==So you believe that people become sinners when they actually sin and that people are not born sinners? Of course Rom 3:10ff is refering to adults. Keep in mind that any action of a lost person, no matter how noble, is of no value to God. In fact God views the "righteous" acts of the lost person as dirty (Is 64:6, Matt 7:21-23). That person is dead in sin and has been that way since the day they were born. Lost people are, by nature, children of wrath. People sin because they are sinners, born sinners, and not the other way around (Eph 2:1-3, Ps 51:5, 58:3).

 

[skypair]

==Drawing is not equal to salvation it is unto salvation. In John 6:44 those who are drawn "will" come (effective drawing). How do I know this? Because those He draws (44a), He raises (44b).

Not what the verses says. You are reading into it. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." The ones that come are drawn -- there's no assertion that all who are drawn come or "will" come. And the connection of 44a to 44b is it is the ones who COME that are RAISED. Again, you are reading into the verse.

==The one who is drawn is the one who comes. They come because they are drawn (6:44). They come because they are given (6:37). They come because they are taught of the Father (6:45). They come because they are His sheep (10:27).

I don't even have to check whether those who come are drawn, taught, his sheep, given --- that is obvious. What is NOT obvious is that all who are drawn come. To claim that, it is YOU would have to be universalist on account of John 12:32! :laugh:

I don't think John 12:32 is refering to the same type of drawing as refered to in John 6:44. Why? Because in John 6:44 the drawing is effective

Not without reading into it it isn't.

Are they not born in sin? Do you believe that every person comes into this world with a sinful nature (bent away from God)?

I believe that all are born with survival instincts that incline us toward self and away from God. But we are guilty of no sin until we do sin, Ezek 18:20. When we do sin (unless we are infants or retarded), our soul "dies" but out spirit has been only "wounded." Hardening begins taking place and death of the spirit comes "as by 1000 cuts."

Keep in mind that any action of a lost person, no matter how noble, is of no value to God. In fact God views the "righteous" acts of the lost person as dirty (Is 64:6, Matt 7:21-23).

I think your last statement needs more scrutiny. It depends on the motives of those good works. For instance, a good father is really a testimony to God's authority in creation. But if we think ritual without believe is "good," that is where the rags are. Realize, even in Isaiah's famous statement, God's people had gone astray and their motives even in worship, therefore, were menstous rags.

That person is dead in sin and has been that way since the day they were born. Lost people are, by nature, children of wrath. People sin because they are sinners, born sinners, and not the other way around (Eph 2:1-3, Ps 51:5, 58:3).

[/quote] See, you gotta show me what sin the newborn would be guilty of. I believe you are reciting dogma and not something you have reasoned out yourself from scripture.

skypair