Total Depravity = Hardening?

[Skandelon]

Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that men are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the gospel.

The scripture teaches that men ARE able to see, hear, understand and believe until they "become hardened" or "grow calloused." (e.g. Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41, etc)

This is why the Bible warns us not to allow our hearts to grow hardened (Heb. 3). We are not born hardened, as Total Depravity presumes. One becomes hardened only after hearing, seeing, understanding and rejecting the revealed truth.

At times God sealed men in that hardened state in order to accomplish a purpose through them, like Pharoah, which Paul compares to the hardening of the Jews in Romans 9 (this is called "judicial hardening").

How is Calvinism's teaching of Total Depravity consistent with the scriptures teaching regarding hardening? What say ye?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that men are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the gospel.

The scripture teaches that men ARE able to see, hear, understand and believe until they "become hardened" or "grow calloused." (e.g. Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41, etc)

Here is Acts 28:21-28 -

And they (the Jews) said unto him (Paul), We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest : for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against .
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God , persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
And some believed the things which were spoken , and some believed not .

It looks like the religious JEWS (not Greeks, not Romans, not Chinese, not any of the Gentiles, but JEWS who are part of national Israel, whom Paul speaks of in Romans in a way as to suggest they are a PICTURE of the true elect of God) decided to hear Mr. Paul out, and they agreed on a day and time.
Now, like any normal Bible study, if one has been in some, or any normal evangelistic meeting in today's churches, some "raise" their hands and "accept" Christ, some don't, no matter how hard the "inviter" kicks the "invited's" foot secretly or nudges him/her/them with his/her/their elbow.
SOME believe, SOME don't.
Like any house meetings, some members of the household believe, some do not.
Does this mean those who believe not are damned ?

And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed , after that Paul had spoken one word , Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Saying , Go unto this people, and say , Hearing ye shall hear , and shall not understand ; and seeing ye shall see , and not perceive :
For the heart of this people is waxed gross , and their ears are dull of hearing , and their eyes have they closed ; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted , and I should heal them.

Converted, not redeemed. Am I saying all Jews are redeemed ? Not at all. I am saying that Paul, in his love for his fellow Jews, ignored the fact that Scripture itself says he is to bear God's light to the Gentiles, not to the Jews, and even as he frustatedly go, in the end, where God wanted him, he still expressed this desire in his letter to the Romans Chapters 9 and 10.

Is God unjust to not open their eyes and ears ? Is God unjust if he never opened your eyes and ears ? Were you born with a spirit in tune with your maker ? Were you born with a thirst for Scripture and truth ? Have idols never attracted you ?

 

[MB]

Pionybaptist;
You asked;

Is God unjust to not open their eyes and ears ? Is God unjust if he never opened your eyes and ears ? Were you born with a spirit in tune with your maker ? Were you born with a thirst for Scripture and truth ? Have idols never attracted you ?

Why not look at the whole picture.
1 God had blinded them because of rejection. They could see and hear before being blinded.
2 The Jews eyes had to be open in order for God to close them

3 I must have been because I have never been blind nor deaf of the gospel. I still remember Jn 3:16 taught to me at the age of 5
4 Everyman desires to know the why of it all and the Bible is the only true explaination.
5 I've always thought that idol worship was nonsense a result of shear ignorance and a lack of common sense. Inanimate objects are just that inanimate they have never lived. Why else would anyone give worship to it, were it not a real ignorance and lack of sense.
MB

 

[Skandelon]

Pionybaptist;
You asked;
Why not look at the whole picture.
1 God had blinded them because of rejection. They could see and hear before being blinded.
2 The Jews eyes had to be open in order for God to close them
3 I must have been because I have never been blind nor deaf of the gospel. I still remember Jn 3:16 taught to me at the age of 5

MB

:thumbsup:

Good points. What is the point in hardening a man born totally hardened? Why blind a man born completely blind? The Jews (in general) GREW hardened/calloused because they heard and rejected God's revelation. If they were born totally hard this would make no sense, especially considering the contrast Paul makes between the Jews who are hardened and the Gentiles who will listen. How does that make sense in a world where everyone is supposedly born totally hardened?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

For Total Depravity, read Rom 3:9-19.
There is a pile of other texts too, but that will do for starters.

Steve

 

[Skandelon]

For Total Depravity, read Rom 3:9-19.
There is a pile of other texts too, but that will do for starters.

Steve

That passage supports the doctrine of Original Sin, but in no way goes as far to say that men are born unable to willingly respond to God's effort to seek and save us through the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth.

We all agree that we can't seek God, but what about our ability to respond to a God seeking us through apostles, scripture, the Holy Spirit, Jesus and His bride, of which are proclaiming the powerful gospel? Is that not sufficient?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that men are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the gospel.

The scripture teaches that men ARE able to see, hear, understand and believe until they "become hardened" or "grow calloused." (e.g. Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41, etc)

/QUOTE]

Come on ..... have you ever read EPH. 2?

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

ALSO AS mARTIN SAID oops caps lock ... Romans 3:9-20


9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

 

[Skandelon]

Come on ..... have you ever read EPH. 2?

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Great passage. It supports the idea of Original Sin, on which we agree. It doesn't however teach that men are born hardened and thus unable to willingly respond to God's life giving powerful message of reconciliation. We both agree that God must supply the answer to our problem of sin, we just disagree regarding the means he has employed to do this. This verse tells us nothing about those means and thus doesn't say enough to support your premise.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Great passage. It supports the idea of Original Sin, on which we agree. It doesn't however teach that men are born hardened and thus unable to willingly respond to God's life giving powerful message of reconciliation. We both agree that God must supply the answer to our problem of sin, we just disagree regarding the means he has employed to do this. This verse tells us nothing about those means and thus doesn't say enough to support your premise.

Its grace that he supplies brother.

 

[webdog]

Come on ..... have you ever read EPH. 2?

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

We are dead in OUR trespasses and sins...that is what Scripture says. We are not created dead in someone else sins.

 

[Skandelon]

Its grace that he supplies brother.

Yes it is, Praise His Name! Just like Paul says in the very next chapter: "I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power."

 

[Skandelon]

We are dead in OUR trespasses and sins...that is what Scripture says. We are not created dead in someone else sins.

:thumbsup:

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

[Winman]

Has anyone here ever known a child that is hardened against God? We have a bus ministry at our church and bring dozens of children generally between the ages of six and twelve, and I have never seen a child hardened against God. They love to come, they love to sing praises to Jesus. Many have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

I have met adults who curse God and religion, but I have never seen a child do this.

This contradicts Total Depravity as some hold it.

 

[quantumfaith]

Pionybaptist;
You asked;


Why not look at the whole picture.
1 God had blinded them because of rejection. They could see and hear before being blinded.
2 The Jews eyes had to be open in order for God to close them

3 I must have been because I have never been blind nor deaf of the gospel. I still remember Jn 3:16 taught to me at the age of 5
4 Everyman desires to know the why of it all and the Bible is the only true explaination.
5 I've always thought that idol worship was nonsense a result of shear ignorance and a lack of common sense. Inanimate objects are just that inanimate they have never lived. Why else would anyone give worship to it, were it not a real ignorance and lack of sense.
MB

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Has anyone here ever known a child that is hardened against God? We have a bus ministry at our church and bring dozens of children generally between the ages of six and twelve, and I have never seen a child hardened against God. They love to come, they love to sing praises to Jesus. Many have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

I have met adults who curse God and religion, but I have never seen a child do this.

This contradicts Total Depravity as some hold it.

I think you need to get around a little more. I can remember one 8 or 9 year old girl saying she didn't believe in God and she didn't want to come to Sunday School any more. Children love to sing and they may be happy to get out of the house on Sunday afternoon or whenever, and they may tell you or their parents that they love Jesus or ask him into their hearts if that's what they think you want them to say or do, but they will not repent of their sins and trust in Christ for salvation unless God opens their hearts to do so (1Cor 2:14).

‘Therefore, through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all men sinned’ (Rom. 5:12). Sinfulness is something we are born with (Psalm 51:5). As has often been noted, a little baby needs to be taught just about everything in life, except how to disobey or to be bad. You have to teach them to be clean, to hold a knife and fork, but not how to be naughty. No one ever has to say to a little child, “Now Johnny, this is how you tell a lie; you have to think of something that isn’t true and say that it is.” Or, “This is how you can be selfish, Janet; you keep your toys to yourself and don’t let your sister play with them.” No, children discover these things for themselves without any help at all! Willfulness and disobedience come to a child as naturally as eating or breathing. Parents can and should teach their children to adopt reasonable standards of behaviour, but they can do nothing to deal with indwelling sin.

The Bible tells us that this sin pervades all of us (Eccl. 7:20), every part of us (Isaiah 1:5-6), and that we cannot, by our own efforts, do anything to change our condition. ‘Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil’ (Jer. 13:23). Sin is not just something which affects axe-murderers or rapists, it is a falling short of the just standards which God has set for us and it pervades us all, the Pharisee as well as the tax collector (Luke 18:9ff); and as we have seen, sin does not only affect man’s conduct, it pollutes his mind, heart and will, preventing him from understanding and responding to the things of God.

From http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/07/03/the-new-birth-2-the-necessity-of-being-born-again/

Steve

 

[quantumfaith]

Has anyone here ever known a child that is hardened against God? We have a bus ministry at our church and bring dozens of children generally between the ages of six and twelve, and I have never seen a child hardened against God. They love to come, they love to sing praises to Jesus. Many have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

I have met adults who curse God and religion, but I have never seen a child do this.

This contradicts Total Depravity as some hold it.

:thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

I think you need to get around a little more. I can remember one 8 or 9 year old girl saying she didn't believe in God and she didn't want to come to Sunday School any more.

How much you want to bet there is a back story on that little girl? She has been hurt and the hardening process has started early in her life, but that doesn't negate the point being made regarding the clear fact that people aren't born hardened...they grow hardened.

(1Cor 2:14).

If this passage supports your premise then the "brethren" in Corinth to whom Paul is addressing this letter are lost.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that men are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the gospel.

The scripture teaches that men ARE able to see, hear, understand and believe until they "become hardened" or "grow calloused." (e.g. Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41, etc)

This is why the Bible warns us not to allow our hearts to grow hardened (Heb. 3). We are not born hardened, as Total Depravity presumes. One becomes hardened only after hearing, seeing, understanding and rejecting the revealed truth.

At times God sealed men in that hardened state in order to accomplish a purpose through them, like Pharoah, which Paul compares to the hardening of the Jews in Romans 9 (this is called "judicial hardening").

How is Calvinism's teaching of Total Depravity consistent with the scriptures teaching regarding hardening? What say ye?

total depravity= total depravity....as usual your whole premise is wrong.

The scripture teaches that men ARE able to see, hear, understand and believe until they "become hardened" or "grow calloused." (e.g. Acts 28:21-28; John 12:39-41, etc)

The scripture teaches that men ARE able .....no,wrong again
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Looks like you are wrong again, but at least you are consistent.

 

[Iconoclast]

We are dead in OUR trespasses and sins...that is what Scripture says. We are not created dead in someone else sins.

you still do not believe romans 5:12...same old story

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.