Total Depravity = Hardening?

[webdog]

you still do not believe romans 5:12...same old story

Why do you keep saying that? Repeating something over and over again does not make it true. I do believe it. I do not believe YOUR interpretation on it. This will be the last time I say that.

Have sinned...past tense. All that can sin will sin, and have.

 

[Skandelon]

total depravity= total depravity....as usual your whole premise is wrong.

I wondered when one of you would make this argument. Can you explain the difference between one who is Totally Depraved but not yet hardened and one who has become hardened?

What part of the definition for hardening is not consistent with Total Depravity?

The scripture teaches that men ARE able .....no,wrong again
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We both agree that God must draw them, the point of contention is whether or not the outward revealed means of the gospel could lead someone to faith, or if there is another irresistible means also needed. Considering the fact that the audience in John 6 is Israel, who are being hardened (Jn 12:39-41), so that the gospel is hidden from them (Mk 4; Matt 13) lest they do believe and repent, you really don't have any basis for your conclusion regarding the nature of man from birth.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

Do you believe the "brethren" being addressed there in Corinth were saved, because in the following verses Paul also refers to them as "natural" or "carnal" men who cannot receive these deep things of God (vs. 10).

 

[Iconoclast]

Why do you keep saying that? Repeating something over and over again does not make it true. I do believe it. I do not believe YOUR interpretation on it. This will be the last time I say that.

Have sinned...past tense. All that can sin will sin, and have.

It does not say that all "that can sin,will sin" that is your twist of the scripture. It says ....all sinned in Adam...past tense.
That is why I keep saying it.

All sinned in Adam....even freshly conceived persons.....at conception they are dead sinners, dead in Adam.You never say this.You keep repeating the same error,as does skandelon, and winman.

Here is what you said;

We are dead in OUR trespasses and sins...that is what Scripture says. We are not created dead in someone else sins.

 

[webdog]

It does not say that all "that can sin,will sin" that is your twist of the scripture. It says ....all sinned in Adam...past tense.
That is why I keep saying it.

All sinned in Adam....even freshly conceived persons.....at conception they are dead sinners, dead in Adam.You never say this.You keep repeating the same error,as does skandelon, and winman.

I twist Scripture...yet you say "It" says "all sinned in Adam". Scripture stating "It" says exactly that? The irony is in Romans 5 I see that sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. Do you believe Romans 5? The irony is you stop before you get to the best part! "...but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law". We are not guilty of someone elses crime, we are guilty for our own as Scripture clearly shows.

How is it a twist to state that it is past tense? All have sinned is just that.

 

[Iconoclast]

I twist Scripture...yet you say "It" says "all sinned in Adam". Scripture stating "It" says exactly that? The irony is in Romans 5 I see that sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. Do you believe Romans 5? The irony is you stop before you get to the best part! "...but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law". We are not guilty of someone elses crime, we are guilty for our own as Scripture clearly shows.

How is it a twist to state that it is past tense? All have sinned is just that.

WD,
I posted a quote in post 20.I cannot read it for you,you need to do that.
Until you understand that the whole human race fell in Adam....at one moment in time, you will continue to go off track..
the last part of the quote in post 20 answers your claim,

We are not guilty of someone elses crime, we are guilty for our own as Scripture clearly shows.

We are guilty in Adam, and we are guilty in our own experience.That is what this part of the quote means;

Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

imputation= In Adam he sinned we sinned
nature= born spiritually dead
personal activity= we commit our very own sins also

I cannot make it clearer for you.

 

[webdog]

I posted a quote in post 20.I cannot read it for you,you need to do that.

I read the quote. Am I supposed to hold that to a higher standard than Scripture?

Until you understand that the whole human race fell in Adam....at one moment in time, you will continue to go off track..

I'm sorry...but you claimed I twisted the Scripture, and then erroneously state "It" says "all sinned in Adam". The curse against all men (and creation) were ushered in through Adam as that is what Scripture teaches, but nowhere does it state we are guilty in Adam. It's just not there, it has to be read into the text.

We are guilty in Adam, and we are guilty in our own experience.That is what this part of the quote means;

If we are guilty in Adam, there can be no personal accountability. Even our finite justice system marred by sin doesn't do that.

imputation= In Adam he sinned we sinned

In Adam he sinned we all suffer the consequences.

nature= born spiritually dead

nature = born with a nature TO sin

personal activity= we commit our very own sins also

personal activity = we are dead in OUR trespasses and sin that WE used to walk in.

That is Scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

wd.....the "it" is the quote in post 20
the quote is the scripture directly from a teacher of the greek language,so I do not hold it above scripture...it is the scriptural teaching.

the point action means we all sinned in Adam,when He sinned.That is the scriptural teaching,whether you believe it or not.

Just like when the last Adam [Jesus] dies,and is raised to life...all the elect are likewise raised to life.

if you deny sin and death through the first adam, you deny righteousness and life in Jesus. that is the problem.

in your last response you said this;
Quote:
imputation= In Adam he sinned we sinned

In Adam he sinned we all suffer the consequences.

no....this is part of where you go off......in adam he sinned[and all humanity sinned in him]...then come the consequences.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Has anyone here ever known a child that is hardened against God? We have a bus ministry at our church and bring dozens of children generally between the ages of six and twelve, and I have never seen a child hardened against God. They love to come, they love to sing praises to Jesus. Many have accepted Jesus as their Savior.

I have met adults who curse God and religion, but I have never seen a child do this.

This contradicts Total Depravity as some hold it.

From my OWN perspective.....thats just a superficial belief vs genuine Holy Spirit filled "Im turning it all over to God" Belief & not credible. Yes perhaps a few continue on with it but many fall away. However genuine grace convicts one of his sins so your not proving a bloody thing to me.....your just talking out of your hat.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It does not say that all "that can sin,will sin" that is your twist of the scripture. It says ....all sinned in Adam...past tense.
That is why I keep saying it.

All sinned in Adam....even freshly conceived persons.....at conception they are dead sinners, dead in Adam.You never say this.You keep repeating the same error,as does skandelon, and winman.

Here is what you said;

Oh my truck driving LI friend, when will you learn!?!...I PM'd you. Also on another note, my new church on Sunday preached Ephesians 1:4-6 ....The importance of Predestination. I gotta say, its a wonderful thing to belong to a Reformed Church! LOL

 

[minnesota slim]

I have to say I'm very surprised to see conservative Evangelicals debating whether or not we have Adam's guilt imputed to us. This was the error of Pelagius and was soundly rejected as heretical.

Scripture is plain regarding this....

We are conceived in sin (Ps. 51:5). Not that the act of David's conception was sinful, but it is saying that he was a sinner from conception.

We are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

In short, we sin because we are born sinners, sinners by our very nature.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have to say I'm very surprised to see conservative Evangelicals debating whether or not we have Adam's guilt imputed to us. This was the error of Pelagius and was soundly rejected as heretical.

Scripture is plain regarding this....

We are conceived in sin (Ps. 51:5). Not that the act of David's conception was sinful, but it is saying that he was a sinner from conception.

We are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

In short, we sin because we are born sinners, sinners by our very nature.

Well my brother, you haven't been here long enough to see how many will throw out Established Orthodox Christian doctrine & rely on themselves as premiere biblical scriptural interpreters....give it time & you will see all sorts of kookie nonsense.....and then they will claim its biblical. Then they will have the effrontery to tell you that your off kilter :laugh:

Welcome to BB! :laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

Sin

Ezekiel 18

John 5

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

We are born with the sinful nature and conceived in sin, but we do not have to pay for the sins of our father even our father adam, but for our own sins. My father is now abraham through believing God and credited righteousness. This teaches me my new life comes from Jesus and because of Him I am a child of God.

I am glad I do not have to depend on religion to change me, but His word. His word is changing and making me whole every day.

 

[Skandelon]

Whether or not our sin/guilt is inherited from Adam or not seems to be a secondary matter considering the end result is the same: we all sin and need a savior.

The question of the OP deals with something of significance however because the end result is not the same.

Either a man is born (1) unable to see, hear, understand and repent or (2) he is born able to see, hear, understand and repent and once he rebells over a period of time grows hardened making it more and more difficult for him to respond to God.

Iconoclast, you never answered my question: Can you explain the difference between one who is Totally Depraved but not yet hardened and one who has become hardened?
What part of the definition for hardening is not consistent with Total Depravity?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The theology around hardening is not simple, but whatever it means it does not contradict the clear testimony of Scripture that unconverted people are dead in trespasses and sins- not sick or wounded but dead- and we are in that state from birth which is why we need to be born again.

Perhaps this analogy will be helpful. A man hears that his son, in the company of some other criminals, is on his way to commit a serious crime. He intercepts the criminals and forces his son to come home with him. He solemnly warns the others that they will suffer the consequences of their crime and appeals to them to give up their nefarious plans. However, when they refuse to listen to him, he takes his son home, 'phones the police and leaves the others to the consequences of their actions.

I say that this man has done all that could be expected of him on behalf of the other criminals. It is only their stubborn and rebellious hearts that have kept them from heeding his advice and giving up their scheme. They have no one but themselves to blame when they end up in jail.

So it is with God. God keeps no one out of heaven (John 6:37b) and indeed He sends preachers and missionaries to plead with men to repent, but men in their wickedness will not turn to Christ to be saved (John 3:19; 5:40) unless God changes their hearts (John 6:44) and this, in His inscrutable wisdom (Rom 11:33ff), He has not done for everyone, but only for those upon whom He has set His love and given to Christ to redeem (Matt 11:27; John 6:37a etc.).

So when men continually reject Christ, God's longsuffering comes to an end (Gen 6:3; Isaiah 65:2ff) and He gives them over to their wickedness (Rom 1:24 etc.) and no longer pleads with them through His word. This is what is meant by hardening.

I forsee lots of objections to this explanation, but it does seem to be the teaching of Scripture. Anyone wishing to argue should be prepared to deal with Rom 9:18ff.

:godisgood:

Steve

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The theology around hardening is not simple, but whatever it means it does not contradict the clear testimony of Scripture that unconverted people are dead in trespasses and sins- not sick or wounded but dead- and we are in that state from birth which is why we need to be born again.

Perhaps this analogy will be helpful. A man hears that his son, in the company of some other criminals, is on his way to commit a serious crime. He intercepts the criminals and forces his son to come home with him. He solemnly warns the others that they will suffer the consequences of their crime and appeals to them to give up their nefarious plans. However, when they refuse to listen to him, he takes his son home, 'phones the police and leaves the others to the consequences of their actions.

I say that this man has done all that could be expected of him on behalf of the other criminals. It is only their stubborn and rebellious hearts that have kept them from heeding his advice and giving up their scheme. They have no one but themselves to blame when they end up in jail.

So it is with God. God keeps no one out of heaven (John 6:37b) and indeed He sends preachers and missionaries to plead with men to repent, but men in their wickedness will not turn to Christ to be saved (John 3:19; 5:40) unless God changes their hearts (John 6:44) and this, in His inscrutable wisdom (Rom 11:33ff), He has not done for everyone, but only for those upon whom He has set His love and given to Christ to redeem (Matt 11:27; John 6:37a etc.).

So when men continually reject Christ, God's longsuffering comes to an end (Gen 6:3; Isaiah 65:2ff) and He gives them over to their wickedness (Rom 1:24 etc.) and no longer pleads with them through His word. This is what is meant by hardening.

I forsee lots of objections to this explanation, but it does seem to be the teaching of Scripture. Anyone wishing to argue should be prepared to deal with Rom 9:18ff.

:godisgood:

Steve

I liked the analogy :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

The theology around hardening is not simple, but whatever it means it does not contradict the clear testimony of Scripture that unconverted people are dead in trespasses and sins- not sick or wounded but dead- and we are in that state from birth which is why we need to be born again.

If you are consistent in your application of the analogy concerning "death" then you must also believe that a corpse couldn't reject Christ, or pretend to accept and become a false teacher, or do any number of things that clearly lost people do in response to the gospel. The analogy of death refers to one being an enemy of God, separated from him...like when a father says to his son, "you are dead to me." Keep in mind that Paul also refers to believers as being dead to sin, but that doesn't mean believers cannot sin. The analogy of being dead in sin doesn't have to mean that the life giving truth is powerless to bring a willingly response as you presume.

So when men continually reject Christ, God's longsuffering comes to an end

What is God waiting on? Why is he patient and longsuffering with people if people have nothing to do with their own salvation? Is he waiting on himself?

(Gen 6:3; Isaiah 65:2ff) and He gives them over to their wickedness (Rom 1:24 etc.) and no longer pleads with them through His word. This is what is meant by hardening

If they were born "totally depraved" what does "giving them over" mean with regard to their ability to hear, see, repent and respond? Read Acts 28:21-28 and notice the difference between the Jews who are hardened and the Gentiles who are not. One is unable and the other is..."they will listen." (Acts 28:28)

And why does God "plead" with people he hasn't chosen to save? How is that pleading genuine?

I forsee lots of objections to this explanation, but it does seem to be the teaching of Scripture. Anyone wishing to argue should be prepared to deal with Rom 9:18ff.
Steve

I have no problem dealing with Romans 9 as long as you are willing to equally understand Romans 10 and 11 in relation to it.

 

[Skandelon]

Perhaps this analogy will be helpful. A man hears that his son, in the company of some other criminals, is on his way to commit a serious crime. He intercepts the criminals and forces his son to come home with him. He solemnly warns the others that they will suffer the consequences of their crime and appeals to them to give up their nefarious plans.

Don't mean to nit-pick your analogy, but the reason it doesn't really accurately represent Calvinism is in regard to this point. The one "solemnly warning" them is also the one who has causally determined them to be born in a state of total inability to willingly repent and respond to this solemn appeal, which upon observation certainly brings into question the "solemness" and "genuineness" of such an appeal.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you never answered my question: Can you explain the difference between one who is Totally Depraved but not yet hardened and one who has become hardened?
What part of the definition for hardening is not consistent with Total Depravity?


At conception we are born totally depraved.We are already sinners. It is our natural condition.

hardening is a process opposite to sanctification, in that the ungodly progess in their ungodliness in real time.

if God does not at all restrain wickedness, there would be worse anarchy in the world than there already is.

Skandelon, in the earlier reply ...you spoke of drawing,yet i highlighted the condition of man ..in bold print

Jesus said ...No man can
you say...all men can

I believe Jesus on this.

In 1 cor. some believers acted ..out of character....fleshly.
Again i cited the verse.....the natural man cannot receive

you say he can......I will go with the Spirit led Paul on this also.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Don't mean to nit-pick your analogy, but the reason it doesn't really accurately represent Calvinism is in regard to this point. The one "solemnly warning" them is also the one who has causally determined them to be born in a state of total inability to willingly repent and respond to this solemn appeal, which upon observation certainly brings into question the "solemness" and "genuineness" of such an appeal.

You know, you're right.
God is one big idiot.
He makes man unable, then He warns them of consequences if they do not repent.
Yeah, what a loon.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

You know, you're right.
God is one big idiot.
He makes man unable, then He warns them of consequences if they do not repent.
Yeah, what a loon.

Actually it is a command to repent. Everyone who rejects God does so of their own free will.