Total Depravity, Not Quite Total

[shilo]

Actually.. To Preach Calvinism would be to preach Augustinianism. since John Calvin Actually got his doctrine from Augustine.

Ken Is a typical Calvinist who would try to distance himself from the term "Calvinism" and use terms like "doctrines of grace" as a metaphor for Calvinism. This is done to try to draw a persons attention off the name of John Calvin. No matter how The Calvinist would try to disguise his churches ties to Calvin he can't cut the ties that bind.

total inability ( what the Calvinist REALLY mean) is total bunk.

 

[Johnv]

Actually, to preach Calvinism is to preach Calvin's views of Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now on to total depravity. We are depraved, but... totally?

According to Genesis 1, we were created in the image and likeness of God, and that God looked at his creation of the 6th day and said "very good" (as opposed to just 'good' for days 1 thru 5). So, while we are immersed in sin, it does not negate the fact that we are inhieriently created very good. We are very good first, and sinners second. Sin comes from Satan, being very good comes from God. God is always more powerful than Satan. Satan's power cannot overcome God's power. To preach that we are depraved is biblical. To preach that we are not created very good is to preach a false biblical message.

 

[Frogman]

So, while we are immersed in sin, it does not negate the fact that we are inhieriently created very good. We are very good first, and sinners second.

Now we learn again, I have no need of a "new life" in Christ. Being first "very good" then it is truly a matter of my exhibiting my "very goodness" as opposed to my second nature which is sinful. If I can learn to do this, then I have no need of a Saviour.

In other words, we can take the words of Christ at John 9.41 and determine within ourselves to not say "I see" and thus we "should have no sin."

I cannot bite this idea. "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree courrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit." Matt. 12.33

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

[shilo]

I got a good laugh out of Ken's reply to Chappie..

Ken said that he was all about the Soteriological: aspect of things..so he's not a "Calvinist" But a "Spurgeonist" I guess he really is mixed up as to what the "Soterilogical" stance is of a Calvinist.. To quote a few..

Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) declared: "It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel. (Charles spurgeon's soveregn grace sermons) (Edmonton: still water revival books, 1990)

"Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the gospel" ( Custance pg 302)

"Calvinism is the gospel. It's outstanding doctrines are simply the truths that make up the gospel" (Englelsma, defense of Calvinism pg.4)

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compaced with himself what he willed to become of each man. for all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been freated to on or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestinated to life or death" ( John Calvin , Institutes of the Christian religon, ed. John T. Mcneil trans. Ford Lewis Battles ( Westminister Press 1960) pg.926) (III.xxi.5)

Don't let them fool you chappie..if it looks like a horse and smells like a horse..it aint a duck.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by shilo:
1) To Preach Calvinism would be to preach Augustinianism.

2) Ken Is a typical Calvinist who would try to distance himself from the term "Calvinism" and use terms like "doctrines of grace" as a metaphor for Calvinism.

3) total inability ( what the Calvinist REALLY mean) is total bunk.

Ah, I see we have a new anti-Calvinist on the board. Welcome to you.

1) This is true. And Augustine got these doctrines from the Scriptural writings of the apostle Paul and the other writers that the Holy Spirit used in assembling the Scriptures. And Paul received these doctrines from Christ Jesus.

2) Thank you for the compliment. But, actually, I don't mind being called a Calvinist, and if someone wishes to use that nickname as a slur, then that's their problem, not mine. I call myself a Spurgeonite because Charles Spurgeon preached the gospel, which includes the doctrines of grace, and he was a Baptist, as I am.

3) If you want to be of the opinion that the Bible's teaching of man's inability is bunk, that is your right. Tell me though, is bunk what you consider to be a technical term?

Have a great day.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by shilo:
1) Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) declared: "It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel. (Charles spurgeon's soveregn grace sermons) (Edmonton: still water revival books, 1990)

2) "Calvinism is the Gospel and to teach Calvinism is in fact to preach the gospel" ( Custance pg 302)

3) "Calvinism is the gospel. It's outstanding doctrines are simply the truths that make up the gospel" (Englelsma, defense of Calvinism pg.4)

1) Thanks for posting that as I was just about to go find it and post it myself. A double amen to Brother Spurgeon.

2) Amen.

3) And amen.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by shilo:
"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compaced with himself what he willed to become of each man. for all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. (John Calvin)

An amen to the part about eternal life. However, since I think I recall reading that Calvin was a double predestinationist, I'll disagree to a certain extent with the part about damnation. I prefer the single predestination of Spurgeon and of most Calvinists today, as election is the result of God's grace and mercy, while damnation is the result of man's sin.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 16, 2002, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[shilo]

No one will disagree that Total Depravity of man isn't biblical..it is even James Arminius taught that..

"In his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewd of his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God In Christ through the Holy spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand,esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly right" (Ibid., vol.1 pp 659-660)

However Depravity isn't the issue with the Calvinist at all.. It's that man has the INABILITY to do anything to save himself, merit God's favor, or demand that God save him..

So the discipels once asked "who then can be saved?" ( mat. 19:25) If what the bible says about man is true, how could anyone ever possibly be saved.. well there are two alternaitives..the Bible and T.U.L.I.P

The Bible says.." And brought them out, and said What must I do to be saved? And they said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house ( acts 16:30-31)

But because the Calvinist like to play word games and their connotation of Total depravity they would say:

"It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord" (Lam.3:26)

That is the Difference between the Bible and Calvinism. In the Bible the sinner believes and he is saved; in Calvinism the sinner HOPES that he is one of the "elect" and then waits for God to save him if he is.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by shilo:
"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compaced with himself what he willed to become of each man. for all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. (John Calvin)

An amen to the part about eternal life. However, since I think I recall reading that Calvin was a double predestinationist, I'll disagree to a certain extent with the part about damnation. I prefer the single predestination of Spurgeon and of most Calvinists today, as election is the result of God's grace and mercy, while damnation is the result of man's sin.

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Wow, a Calvinist putting his predecessor to shame. Who told me that all calvinists pretty much believed the same.

Ken, can i have it in bold capitol letters.

(((( I DISAGREE WITH A REGENERATED EFFICACIOUSLY GRACED JOHN CALVIN. HE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO PREDESTINATION/DOUBLE PREDESTINATION.))))

Is this a true statement Ken. Yes or no, no prettying it up: True or false....

[ October 16, 2002, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by shilo:
Actually.. To Preach Calvinism would be to preach Augustinianism. since John Calvin Actually got his doctrine from Augustine.

Ken Is a typical Calvinist who would try to distance himself from the term "Calvinism" and use terms like "doctrines of grace" as a metaphor for Calvinism. This is done to try to draw a persons attention off the name of John Calvin. No matter how The Calvinist would try to disguise his churches ties to Calvin he can't cut the ties that bind.

total inability ( what the Calvinist REALLY mean) is total bunk.

Stick around Shilo, truth is kinda scarce in this neck of the woods.

Be a blessing, whither they like it or not....

God bless ya..

 

[KenH]

I disagree with Calvin's double predestination stance. But I have no problem in giving the right hand of fellowship to a double predestinationist or a 4-point Calvinist. I consider all of us to be on the same side in the battle to defend Biblical truth.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:

Originally posted by shilo:
[qb]Stick around Shilo

Yes, Shilo, please do. Other than the efforts by Ray Berrian and Scott Emerson, the arguments by the anti-Calvinists in this forum have been rather lame recently. Perhaps you can do a decent job of carrying the ball for the false teaching of the Arminians and their fellow travelers

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
I disagree with Calvin's double predestination stance. But I have no problem in giving the right hand of fellowship to a double predestinationist or a 4-point Calvinist. I consider all of us to be on the same side in the battle to defend Biblical truth.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

You all cannot be defending biblical truth, there can be two opinions, but only one truth. Seems to me you can believe anything that you please, aslong as you call yourself a calvinist, you are defending the faith. Logic out the window.

You need to clean up your own house before you try to clean up anyone elses. Do you efficaciously regenerateds have truth, rather the same truth or not.

Can i call myself a calvinist too, you disagree with John and call yourself a calvinist. Might I do so also. You don't like double predestination, I don't like limited attonement. What makes you a calvinist, and me not a calvinist....

There is only one truth. When two brothers disagree, one has to be wrong at a minimum. Yet it is still possible thatthey are both wrong.

[ October 16, 2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by shilo:
1) So the disciples once asked "who then can be saved?" ( mat. 19:25)

2)But because the Calvinist...would say:

"It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord" (Lam.3:26)

3)then waits for God to save him

Shilo,

Thanks for admitting upfront that you believe you can save yourself, or at least contribute to your own salvation.

1) I noticed that you failed to quote the next verse. I'll do it.

(Matthew 19:26 NKJV) But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

You're off on the wrong foot, Shilo. You've already failed in your first attempt to promote anti-Calvinism and bash the Biblical teaching of Calvinism.

2) Actually, I would say:

(Jonah 2:9 NKJV) "...Salvation is of the LORD."

3) I plead guilty on depending on God to save me. I admit tht I can't save myself. As I said earlier, evidently you think you can save yourself. How sad, Shilo, how sad.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 16, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[shilo]

, and if someone wishes to use that nickname as a slur, then that's their problem, not mine.

Feeling a bit defensive are we??

To make myself clear..I didn't and don't use the term Calvinst as a slur word..I use it as not to confuse people with what I am talking about.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Can i call myself a Calvinist too

If you wish, come join us on the side of Biblical truth. And welcome.

But please bear in mind, disagreeing on supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism is a minor difference compared to disagreeing on salvation by God's sovereign, free grace vs. salvation by man's corrupted, "free" will.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 16, 2002, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[shilo]

Thanks for admitting upfront that you believe you can save yourself, or at least contribute to your own salvation.

Perhaps Ken you missed something. What I said was.."that in the Bible the sinner believes and is saved" (Acts 16:30-31)

"And they said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

don't go putting words into my mouth because you don't like what the Bible actually says..

 

[shilo]

God's sovereign...Can someone open thier Bible up and please find that word for me?? or even that phrase..

How about free will?

 

[shilo]

I noticed that you failed to quote the next verse. I'll do it.

(Matthew 19:26 NKJV) But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

What's sad Ken is that you don't even have the right book..( but that's another topic)

2nd..read the context in which I used that verse then perhaps yo will see why I did't quote the verse following. but since you wanted to go that route..

"Who Then Can be saved"

"..With Men it this (the parable he just spoke) is impossible: but with God ALL things are possible" Mat.19:26

Acts 16;30-31 "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"And they said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Yep..with Men THIS is impossible but with God ALL things are possible!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by shilo:
God's sovereign...Can someone open thier Bible up and please find that word for me?? or even that phrase

This list is not exhaustive but here are a few:

(Isa 7:7 NIV) Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'It will not take place, it will not happen,

(Isa 25:8 NIV) he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.

(Isa 28:16 NIV) So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

(Isa 40:10 NIV) See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

(Isa 50:5 NIV) The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back.

(Jer 2:22 NIV) Although you wash yourself with soda and use an abundance of soap, the stain of your guilt is still before me," declares the Sovereign LORD.

(Jer 50:25 NIV) The LORD has opened his arsenal and brought out the weapons of his wrath, for the Sovereign LORD Almighty has work to do in the land of the Babylonians.

(Ezek 3:11 NIV) Go now to your countrymen in exile and speak to them. Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says,' whether they listen or fail to listen."

(Dan 4:17 NIV) "'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

(Amos 3:11 NIV) Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "An enemy will overrun the land; he will pull down your strongholds and plunder your fortresses."

(Oba 1:1 NIV) The vision of Obadiah. This is what the Sovereign LORD says about Edom-- We have heard a message from the LORD: An envoy was sent to the nations to say, "Rise, and let us go against her for battle"--

(Micah 1:2 NIV) Hear, O peoples, all of you, listen, O earth and all who are in it, that the Sovereign LORD may witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.

(Luke 2:29 NIV) "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace.

(Acts 4:24 NIV) When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

(1 Timothy 6:15 NASB)which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

(Jude 1:4 NIV) For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

(Rev 6:10 NIV) They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 16, 2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]