Total Depravity, Not Quite Total

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Bro. Chappie,

I appreciate your determination. But in the full reading of Scripture the Word of God does not contradict itself.

While we are looking at Ez. 18.31 let us also look upon Ez. 20 (the whole chapter), with attention to vss. 31-38.

God makes the plea in 18.31, certainly, this shows only the responsibility of man, not the ability;

You state that it shows the responsibility of man, not the ability. Here you appear to contradict yourself. Responsibility = response + ability. The passage does in fact demonstrate the response ability of man. (responseability, ability=able)

I find nothing in chapter 20 to demonstrate a total lack of ability to respond to God. Truth is, i find a God pleading with a people that he loves to obey his commands. (A divine pleading of course)I find a stiffnecked people that refuse to respond...

The command is redundant and misleading if man is totally unable to respond. Often we think of responding to God as proactive, I rather consider it to be an act of submission..

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Rom. 2.4

(this is not referring to you; nor your character; I do not know you; I am only providing Scripture on the topic)

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

Your post is not personal nor offensive to me, no disclaimer necessary...

It indeed is the Goodness of God that stands us responsible before God. Without his goodness, no man is {response + able} able to respond. It is his goodness that makes it possible...

[ October 18, 2002, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Frogman]

Often we think of responding to God as proactive, I rather consider it to be an act of submission..

You seem to be saying what I have been saying; however, I believe even my submission is willed by Him. I believe this as a result of my being at enmity with God (Rom. 8.7) which verse tells me also this carnal mind renders me not subject to the law of God, therefore, I believe until God acts upon my person (spirit, soul, will, desire, and mind) I am not able, though still accountable, to choose to serve God.

This is not personal to me, but is the condition of all who are born into the world (except Christ) we have eyes but we see not, ears but we hear not. But because we are His sheep, we hear His voice, because we are His sheep we follow Him, on the contrary, because some (others or many makes no difference), who do not hear His voice, nor follow Him shows it cannot be by the action, to any degree of man; until that will is regenerated, until that spirit is quickened he/she/or I were all dead in trespasses and sins.

This is why Paul said: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Rom. 7.24

God Bless.

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eric B:
I think what he was looking for was "sovereign" as an adjective (i.e. God is sovereign)

(Dan 4:17 NIV) "'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

[ October 18, 2002, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
You seem to be saying what I have been saying; however, I believe even my submission is willed by Him.

It is his will, and he is the cause. Yet your submission is not brought about efficaciously

I believe this as a result of my being at enmity with God (Rom. 8.7) which verse tells me also this carnal mind renders me not subject to the law of God, therefore, I believe until God acts upon my person (spirit, soul, will, desire, and mind) I am not able, though still accountable, to choose to serve God.

Again, i agree, but still i say that God acts short of efficaciously. God does not hold us accountable for what is impossible for us to do.

To destroy a people that cannot be redemed is not to hold one accountable. Man, just like Adam is only held accountable/responsible for the choices that he makes.

We pretty much agree that salvation is all of God. I just believe that we have the ability to resist his will. His sovereignty is not in question here, neither is it challenged. It is his plan...

This is not personal to me, but is the condition of all who are born into the world (except Christ) we have eyes but we see not, ears but we hear not. [/b]

All like sheep have gone astray, you are not his sheep untill he allows you into the flock. His sheep are those that come to him in faith.

The journey begins when we are drawn by the father to the son. It is not efficacious. It is resistible. Once again, not an issue of sovereignty, nor is it an issue of power.

But because we are His sheep, we hear His voice, because we are His sheep we follow Him, on the contrary, because some (others or many makes no difference), who do not hear His voice, nor follow Him shows it cannot be by the action, to any degree of man; until that will is regenerated, until that spirit is quickened he/she/or I were all dead in trespasses and sins.

All men are presented the opportunity to be his sheep. It is not his stated will that any should perish.

What is the biblically stated reason that men perish.
II Th 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(KJV)

(V 10)They are deceived by unrighteousness, why, because they rejected truth that they "Might" be saved. (V11) because of their rejection of truth, God now sends them a strong delusion that they might believe (totally) a lie.

Shall we allow verse 11 to speak for itself.. It does not need my help at all.
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". The reason given speaks nothing of one not belonging to Christ/ nor of not being the elect.

Efficacious grace exist only in response to your docturine of total depravity. Man's depravity does not limit God's ability. Do you not believe that all is of God. God can touch, to any degree that he choses, any man ever created.

God can cause a dead man to hear should he chose to do so. That he would cause some to hear, yet totally ignore others. With the consequence being heaven or hell. I do not buy it.

99% of what you believe about God, I believe. But to say that God chose him a people before the world was created, kept creating; and just threw the rest into the fire. Christ would have to show up with three pieces of identification, throw in a few miracles, show me how to walk on water and a frw other things before I would believe. It is not within the revealed concept of his loving nature to do so.

[/b]
This is why Paul said: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Rom. 7.24
[/QB]

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved. Christ responded, Paul, i'll save you....

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Eric B:
and a poor translation of YHWH or Elohim at that--"Sovereign Lord").

Sovereign LORD is the translation of Adonai YHWH. Other versions translate it Lord God. Studying the word in Scripture indicate that Sovereign LORD is a very good translation of it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Your question was asked under threat of being banned should i post an answer that you did not approve of. How much value can anyone place on my answer under such circumstances. How much value would you place on it.

I could be lying, or i could be telling the truth, depending on how much I wanted to stay here on Baptist Board.

My question was asked to determine if you are denying the orthodox doctrine of God by asserting that "Sovereign Lord" and "God" are not the same person. It was an easy question and all you needed to do was answer, Yes, I believe they are the same person. Why would you answer otherwise?? Of course, I was leading you to a conclusion you didn't want to reach, namely that if Sovereign LORD and God were the same person, it would be a testimony to the fact that Scripture does call God sovereign, which was something Shilo apparently didn't believe. The only reason that I could think for you not answering this question straightforwardly was if you were trying to deny that conclusion.

As for being banned, I knew you didn't believe that they were different. I was pointing out that it was a matter of orthodoxy and that we do not allow unorthodox people to post in this forum. They must use the all other discussions, or other religions forum. You weren't in danger of being banned unless you answered with an answer that not even the most far left of evangelicalism would give.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

As for being banned, I knew you didn't believe that they were different. I was pointing out that it was a matter of orthodoxy and that we do not allow unorthodox people to post in this forum. They must use the all other discussions, or other religions forum. You weren't in danger of being banned unless you answered with an answer that not even the most far left of evangelicalism would give.

"When someone asked for references, you didn't think you would get them. Then when they showed up, you weren't sure what to do with them so you stoop to things like this" ...

These are your comments, before i answered I wanted to be sure of how far i had already stooped before i opened my mouth again..

I did not think that the refrences provided were precisely what had been asked for....

But, alas;
On to bigger and better things. Good Idea????

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
I did not think that the refrences provided were precisely what had been asked for....

Ah, but the verse in Daniel says that God is sovereign, but you won't admit it.

I wonder why?

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
I did not think that the refrences provided were precisely what had been asked for....

Ah, but the verse in Daniel says that God is sovereign, but you won't admit it.

I wonder why?</font>[/QUOTE]Mostly because it gives you something silly to add to your repetoir.

Perhaps i will admit something that could be of assistance to you tho.... He is not a Calvinist...

BTW, why don't you ask Pastor Larry, him you will believe.

Yea, ask Pastor Larry.

[ October 19, 2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Mostly because it gives you something silly to add to your repetoir.

Thanks for admitting that the Bible does say that "God is sovereign."

 

[shilo]

Thanks for admitting that the Bible does say that "God is sovereign

Sorry Ken..My Bible does not say that God Is Sovereign. Not one place in my Bible is the word sovereign..I even checked my Concordance just to be sure..and yep..Nothing..

However..I do believe the Lord God Is Sovereign..just not the way you do.

Chappie..you are a trip! LOL

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by shilo:
Not one place in my Bible is the word sovereign

Maybe the version you are using doesn't use the word "sovereign" but the NIV does, which should be good enough for most people except for the extremists among KJV-onlyites.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Perhaps i will admit something that could be of assistance to you tho.... He is not a Calvinist...

BTW, why don't you ask Pastor Larry, him you will believe.

Yea, ask Pastor Larry.

Who is not a Calvinist and what is he supposed to be asking me??

 

[BobRyan]

Shilo
We all agree that Man is totally depraved but we aren't speaking about that we are speaking about INABILITY.

The flesh cannot be changed, reformed, trained, improved, or reconciled to God unless and until God changes it..but to say that because of this "INABILITY" a man cannot believe the gospel is another matter! [/shilo]

It is the same thing according to Romans 8 - the sinful depraved heart/will "does not subject itself to the law of God," and not only that - not only does it not choose to subject itself but " it is not even ABLE to do so" Romans 8:7.

However - the supernatural drawing of God (John 12:32) causes ALL to be enabled so that they "CAN" come to God (John 6:44). No one CAN come unless God draws them - and He draws ALL.

You examples of men that were pleasing to God - can not be assumed to be "in the absence of the Holy Spirit" or "in the absence of the supernatural drawing of God". So even that is not an illustration of the "ability" of the depraved nature apart from God. - i.e of its own.

Just as the Calvinist argument of election can not be assumed to be in the "absence" of what God knows. In this case - what He knows about the future.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
Perhaps i will admit something that could be of assistance to you tho.... He is not a Calvinist...

BTW, why don't you ask Pastor Larry, him you will believe.

Yea, ask Pastor Larry.

Who is not a Calvinist and what is he supposed to be asking me??</font>[/QUOTE]Ken wants to know if I believe that God is sovereign.

Give him your most faithful opinion, do I, or don't I??

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
Mostly because it gives you something silly to add to your repetoir.

Thanks for admitting that the Bible does say that "God is sovereign."

</font>[/QUOTE]Hold the gratuties, cause I ain't admitting nothing without a lawyer....

Are there any good lawyers on the board??? You will have to be well connected if you want to represent me...

[ October 19, 2002, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Ken wants to know if I believe that God is sovereign.

Give him your most faithful opinion, do I, or don't I??

You sure you want me to give my opinion????

 

[Eric B]

Sovereign LORD is the translation of Adonai YHWH. Other versions translate it Lord God. Studying the word in Scripture indicate that Sovereign LORD is a very good translation of it.

I said it was poor, because "sovereign" is an adjective (describing someone), while "Lord"/Adonai in that case is a title. Adonai has a much broader meaning than just "sovereign", especially when it was used on men (they are not "sovereign" in the sense God is). I just thought this caused a bit of confusion.

 

[Frogman]

Brethren,
I have been away this weekend to a mission conference;

I want to address the thought as to whether the label toward God is shown in the Bible or not concerning His sovereignty, and being stated Sovereign.

Someone pointed out their concordance does not use the word sovereign; this appears to be enough proof the adjective does not exist in the Holy Bible.

I have studied the Biblical use of wine; and have found the word "wine" is not in my concordance; yet it is found in scripture.

Perhaps those words that are most controversial (even when alluded to) are those that have been left out in these concordances. Why? I don't know, either it is assumed folks would know God is Sovereign, by fact that He is creator, or it is assumed that folks would prefer not to consider the concept, since great is the controversy over whether God ever created in the Biblical sense.

Webster tells us:

sovereign: of or relating to a sovereign; having undisputed right to make decisions and act accordingly; unlimited absolute power.

sovereignty: the state or quality of being sovereign.

Whether the word is found in Concordances of scripture, or in scripture itself, the idea is certainly found throughout; to deny the complete Sovereignty of God is to exalt man, even if your intentions are not so, this is the result.

What is the word to Elijah in 1 Kings 19.18?

He did not say 7,000 in Israel have kept themselves from bowing unto Baal; but that "I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him."

God Bless you all in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
Ken wants to know if I believe that God is sovereign.

Give him your most faithful opinion, do I, or don't I??

You sure you want me to give my opinion????</font>[/QUOTE]The truth as you see it is sufficient for me...