Total Depravity

[Frank]

Larry:
The Bible teaches men have a WILL to choose right or wrong. They are not depraved. I have provided ample evidence for this. You ignored it, or have tried circular reasoning to dismiss it. Joshua said CHOOSE whom ye will serve. Moses set before the children of good and evil. They had a CHOICE of whether to follow or depart to the right hand or the left. Moses CHOSE affliction rather than the pleasures of sin for a season. Total Depravity asserts that man's will is so polluted he cannot chose and that he is incline to no good thing, If that were true, and it is not, Moses and Joshua were wasting their time. They just thought they had a choice!

You have made an attempt to use one verse to support a doctrine that cannot stand in the face of the totality of the evidence. This is a poor way to arrive at a rational conclusion. For example, If Psalms 51:5 were true, as per your interpretation, then infants are born speaking Psalms 58:3. This is absurd!
Rationality requires one to make only those conclusions as are warranted by the evidence( all of it)!
You can search the divine volume today and forever with the mind of Einstein and it will still read SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW. (I JN.3:4). Men know what sin is because of law.( Romans 7:4,7). When men CHOOSE to miss the mark, they sin.
Although I do read commentaires, they are not infallible guides to undersatnding the truth. They maybe right and they may be wrong. However, the word of God is always right .( Psalms 33:4).
Moroever, All the things men need for every good work are the scriptures and those only.( II Tim. 3:16,17).
In reference to your arguments, they were answered and refuted by the totality of the divine evidence available. One rarely finds ALL the evidence in one verse for truth.
It is the SUM of his words that are truth.(Psalms 119:60 asv),Psalms 51:5 not withstanding.

Frank

 

[Carly33]

" But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; " Isaiah 64:6

"They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psalm 14:3

"Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans5:12

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carly33,

All of your verse are very true and I also am in agreement with them. Humankind is depraved and is capable of any sin. The Arminian counterpart to your 'Total Depravity' is this.

Arminians call this 'Prevenient Grace.' It basicly means this. Man has no good in himself to commend him to God. The preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the sinner to respond to the Gospel and cooperate with God in salvation. This we call faith. [Hebrews 11:1 & 11:6] We too, are not taken back by the evil that lurks in the heart of humankind.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ray Berrian]

While we agree that nothing can move the heart of man toward God, we also believe that the Holy Spirit is at work convicting and convincing men and women of their need of Jesus Christ. The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of a sinner begins to move that person toward seeing the truth of the Gospel. So it is God the Spirit Who is to receive all of the glory in bring a person to his or her sense of spiritual realities.

God is not impressed with sinner's good works or their thinking of their worthiness toward Him. He only response with the gift of salvation as that person bows to His sovereignty. This we call faith. [Romans 5:1] Faith is relying in a trust relationship with Jesus for forgiveness and the only hope of eternal life.

Dr. Berrian