Total Depravity

[standingfirminChrist]

Good point, me4him

So, Total Depravity is a fallacy according to scripture, want to start a thread called Conditional Election?

 

[Marcia]

People can appear and act moral and upstanding on the outside, but a person outside of Christ is in rebellion against God because that is our natural state. We are born in rebellion against God and in enmity to God and are only changed when regenerated by the HS because of grace through faith in Christ.

 

[Me4Him]

Israel has a "ZEAL" (will) to be "RIGHTEOUS" with God,

But not the "Ability" (means) to accomplish that "Righteous", through "works of the flesh". (obeying the law)

Having the "WILL/ZEAL" doesn't save.

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Without the "Spirit of God", these people "SHOULD BE" in "total depravity" from God, yet they still "seek God", so, depravity isn't that total.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

again, Amen, Me4Him

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by HankD:
So we are moving away from the original premise.

I think we can all agree that salvation is of the Lord, apart from that we disagree as to the want-to and/or the will-to.

But what do you think, can we say that there is absolutely nothing good in man (and is this part and parcel of what is called "Total Depravity") seeing that he is made in the image and likeness of God?

Thanks.

HankD

Takor asked:4. Please provide verses for the statement that "After God quickens our spirit we can choose."

There are several passages that seem to clearly warn of the dangers of the quickened deliberately falling away. I do not believe a regenerate believer will fall away but think these passages are warnings in themselves that provide a means by which God preserves the elect. I do think they make a case for a FREE WILL in the matter. These warnings are serious and prompt self-examination which keep believers in the way of perseverance so again; I do NOT think they prove that the quickened WILL fall away but only that they have a choice and are there only for a means to prevent the faithful from sinning and warn of the terrible results for those who deliberately fall from grace. Long story, hard to articulate, but I don't think those believers in the image of God will fall, that said here they are:
Romans 11:17-24
1Cor 9:27
Gal 5:4
Col 1:23
1Th 3:5
1Tim 2:17-18
James 5:19-20
2 Peter 2:20-22
1 John 5:16
In Hebrews some where tempted to revert to Judaism under persecution which is especially explicit of the danger of apostasy through disobedience:
Hebrews 6:1-8, 10:26-31
Hebrews 4:11

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Good point, me4him

So, Total Depravity is a fallacy according to scripture, want to start a thread called Conditional Election?

If Total Depravity meant that no one had an appearance of morality then you might have a point. But it doesn't mean that. Total Depravity means what Romans 3:11-19 means. Take your upstanding, moral unbeliever and line him up in front of Romans 3:11-19, and let me know what you get.

 

[HankD]

Pinoybaptist says:

What do you think first, HandD ? Is there any good in man that will cause God to be absolutely pleased with them as He was pleased with His Son ?

Brother pinoybaptist you begged my question by reponding to a question I did not ask.
In fact most of the answers skirt the question. But I will bear with you.

I asked if there was any good at all in man seeing that he is created in the image of God.

Then I quoted

James 3
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Then I asked concerning the teaching of Total Depavity and how it deals with God's image and likeness which we bear.

I did not ask if He was pleased with man as He was pleased with His Son.

But, the answer to your question brother is - no, He is however pleased with His own children (or at least the things which we do).

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

So what do you think brother is there any good thing at all in man seeing that he is created in the image of God?

I know, it's kind of a trick question, if we say yes then we are in trouble with the theologians, if we say no then we are in trouble with God.

Or not?

HankD

 

[HankD]

Marcia says

So while we are not good, we do have value in God's eyes.

Thank you for a direct (but possibly a diplomatic) answer.

Although I do agree with it.

But can we say that anything God values has to be good does it not?

HankD

 

[exscentric]

"I also think being made in the image of God means we have the capacity to understand good and evil."

Gen 2.17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

"Take your upstanding, moral unbeliever and line him up in front of Romans 3:11-19, and let me know what you get."

You get an upstanding moral living LOST person. You haven't responded to the seeming contradiction that you yourself have shown for the second time with your passage.

Any thought of TOTAL DEPRAVITY should include what is observable in life to be reasonable. How do you account for this seeming contradiction? It needs to be included in any teaching of total depravity or the teaching will seem illogical at best.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by genesis12:
Man is totally unable to save himself. He is miserably lost in sin. He is totally, utterly dependent upon God to do the wooing and the saving. I'm so glad my salvation doesn't depend upon me being good.

So you don't believe what Christ said 3 times, Ye must be born again to be saved? Being born again means that the Holy Spirit changes you such that your life is completely different. No change, nor born again, no salvation.

John Chap 3

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by exscentric:
Any thought of TOTAL DEPRAVITY should include what is observable in life to be reasonable. How do you account for this seeming contradiction? It needs to be included in any teaching of total depravity or the teaching will seem illogical at best. [/QB]

I made this same point in another post, Calvin's doctrine doesn't line up with what is "observed" in the world.

People, Jews especially, "SEEK GOD" without being "led by the Spirit".

 

[donnA]

The bible says there is none who seek God. In and of themselves, without the leading of the Holy Spirit, no one seeks God. According to scitpure. There is only one biblical way to seek God, through Jesus Christ. Now how many 'seek' without being lead by the Holy Spirit, if it isn't leading them to Jesus? Like the bible says, none.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by genesis12:
Man is totally unable to save himself. He is miserably lost in sin. He is totally, utterly dependent upon God to do the wooing and the saving. I'm so glad my salvation doesn't depend upon me being good.

AMEN!
me deciding to accept would be me doing good, apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit I am unable to do any good that has any eternal meaning.

 

[donnA]

I think most of us know "Somebody" who is an "upstanding, Moral person", yet "IS NOT" saved.

How does this person attain the "MORALITY", character of a person scripture describe as a "Christian", yet without the assistance of the "Spirit"??

Evidently, depravity isn't as "total" as claimed

Spiritually good?
Nope, not possible.
Our 'good' comes not from us but the indwelling Holy Spirit. My 'good' is as filthy rags. Even the desire to be good comes from the Holy Spirit.
The mistakes happens when we look at the human idea of whats good and whats bad. By God's standards, no one can possible be 'good' without Him.

 

[OldRegular]

We frequently hear the expression that some one who has committed a particular heinous crime is "Totally Depraved". However, contrary to what many people believe and the way the words are commonly used the doctrine of Total Depravity has nothing to say about the degree or depth of sin in which man lives. The doctrine of Total Depravity simply means that man can not of his own accord come God for Salvation. Unregenerate man is spiritually dead in tresspass and sin.

The Apostle Paul tells us

1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the unsaved man. We read further from the Apostle Paul:

Romans 3:10-18, KJV
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The Psalmist tells us:

Psalm 14:1-3, KJV
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[ January 15, 2006, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: OldRegular ]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by takor:
4. Please provide verses for the statement that "After God quickens our spirit we can choose."

Please excuse my English.
In Christ

Perhaps the best passage of Scripture to answer the above question is Ephesians 2:1-9 [from the KJV and the New KJV].

Ephesians 2:1-9, KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Ephesians 2:1-9, NKJV
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Notice in Verse 1 the phrase "hath He quickened" in the JKV is replaced by "He made alive" in the NKJV. Neither of these phrases were in the original Greek but were added in the KJV and NKJV for clarity.

Notice in that Verses 1, 4, and 5 we are told that while we were still dead in tresspass and sin [that is spiritually dead or in a state of Total Depravity] God made us spiritually alive without any action on our part. Also notice that in Verse 8 we are told that God gives us the gift of faith through which we are able to believe.

John Dagg, a Southern Baptist of the 19th Century writes of the above events as follows: [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by HankD:
Do we sometimes go overboard in our theology to prove something (like, maybe how spiritual we are?).

We have heard that there is absolutely nothing good at all in man.

Is this part of the teaching of Total Depravity?

What about the image and likeness of God?
Certainly that is a good thing?

What do you think?

HankD

Doesn't matter what I think. Here is what God's Word says:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

Romans 3:9-18

Any good that is in us comes from God and his grace which transforms us.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Humblesmith]

It is an odd teaching indeed that looks at someone accepting a free gift and concludes that they earned it. Or that if someone concludes that they are evil, and are tired of being evil, and are helpless and can't stop being evil, that this is somehow an act of goodness. Such a teaching is theology gone to seed.

 

[Me4Him]

I "think" we need to define "GOOD" as it's meant in these scriptures.

Mr 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good (without sin) but one, that is, God.

Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, (sinners) they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.(for all have sinned)

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: (not sinless) for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good.....I find not. (no self righteousness)

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul recognized that "in the flesh", he could never achieve the "righteousness" God requires, but with the "inward" desire to be righteous, God would save the Soul in spite of the sins of the flesh.

Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the "law of my mind", (carnal) and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me (soul) from the body of this death? (flesh)

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

As Paul described, the "WILL of the soul/spirit" can be "separate" from the "will of the flesh", Paul said he died "daily", crucifying the old man to destroy the "body of sin".

1Co 15:31 I die daily.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[jw]

Don't have time to comment tonight. Will try to check in tomorrow if I get some free time. This is a very important subject.

Honestly studying this out is what really persuaded me to move to Calvinism. I think it impossible to understand salvation any other way if you have a proper understanding of the total depravity of man.