Total Depravity

[Marcia]

Originally posted by HankD:
Marcia says </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So while we are not good, we do have value in God's eyes.

Thank you for a direct (but possibly a diplomatic) answer.

Although I do agree with it.

But can we say that anything God values has to be good does it not?

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know the answer but this is my guess: No. Maybe God can value what can be redeemed and/or what he created, even if it's corrupted by sin.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by exscentric:
"I also think being made in the image of God means we have the capacity to understand good and evil."

Gen 2.17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil , thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

"Take your upstanding, moral unbeliever and line him up in front of Romans 3:11-19, and let me know what you get."

You get an upstanding moral living LOST person. You haven't responded to the seeming contradiction that you yourself have shown for the second time with your passage.

Any thought of TOTAL DEPRAVITY should include what is observable in life to be reasonable. How do you account for this seeming contradiction? It needs to be included in any teaching of total depravity or the teaching will seem illogical at best.

I am not sure whom you are addressing.

I made the first statement quoted above but not the second. Are you asking about a contradiction between these 2 statements? If you are, then you should know they were not made by the same person.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Humblesmith:
It is an odd teaching indeed that looks at someone accepting a free gift and concludes that they earned it. Or that if someone concludes that they are evil, and are tired of being evil, and are helpless and can't stop being evil, that this is somehow an act of goodness. Such a teaching is theology gone to seed.

I think "GIFT" is the key word here, a gift isn't forced upon anyone, nor withheld from any who "WILL" accept it.

The "Gift" is laid at the altar, "WHOSOEVER WILL" can pick up the gift, at the altar.


"The key to heaven was hung on the cross".

 

[donnA]

I think the whole thing is a sovereignty (sp?) issue. Is God in control or is He not? Does God give up control to man? Haven't seen that in scripture.

 

[exscentric]

First statement was yours and the verse tends to go against that statement.

the next two lines were response to one of the other posts.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by exscentric:
First statement was yours and the verse tends to go against that statement.

the next two lines were response to one of the other posts.

Sorry for the confusion.

How does the verse go against what I say? I don't think that eating the tree gave man the capacity to know good from evil, it gave them the experiential knowledge of evil. They already knew it was wrong to eat from the tree or they would not have hid from God. Also, God told them not to eat from it and even Eve said this to the serpent. They knew it was wrong but had not sinned yet so they had not experienced doing wrong (sinning).

They had the ability to know right from wrong before eating the fruit, at least the ability to know it was wrong to disobey God and eat from that tree. That's a understanding of right and wrong, or we could say, good and evil. Adam and Eve were deciding what was good over and against what God had said was good (and bad).

 

[blackbird]

Total depravity?? I wrote this down in the flyleaf of my Bible---the thought just "dawned" upon me---that ever happens to any of you??

Anyway---with the thought in mind--we hear preachers giving a Pulpit plea during "Invitation Time" to "give your life to Jesus"

Here's my thought on Total Depravity

Becoming a "Believer" is not giving Him YOUR life!----You don't have a life to give! You are "dead in trespasses and sins" and how much life does a dead man have??? Becoming a "Believer" ---rather---is Jesus giving HIS life to you! Jesus is the only one with a life to give!!

Romans 5:10 teaches that we are "saved by His life"---and that life is more than just the one He had while doing Earthly ministry! We are not saved by the life of Jesus of Galilee---but we are saved by the life of Jesus of Heaven---Post-Resurrection Jesus!

 

[HankD]

OK, so far most people are addressing what we do and the potential for evil due to the sin nature and our helplessness to save ourselves rather than whether there is any intrinsic worth in man because he is created in the image and likeness of God.

Someone PM'd me and said we are part of God's creation of which He said it was "very good".

Did we lose all that goodness in the fall?

So what do you think, does the scripture teach that there is absolutely nothing good in man?

I assume that Total Depravity means that we are morally depraved but what about the intrinsic value of man in God's sight?

The Scripture indicates that even the unregenerate have been created in His image.

Are the unregenerate who bear His image worthless in God's sight?

Does He consider them just a kind of a human flotsam and jetsum to be cast into the lake of fire in the end?

HankD

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by HankD:
So what do you think, does the scripture teach that there is absolutely nothing good in man?

Are the unregenerate who bear His image worthless in God's sight?

Here is what Scripture says:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

Romans 3:9-18

Accroding to the Bible, the answers to your above questions in the quote would be yes.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[HankD]

Thank you Joseph.

Anyone else?

How does the Scripture which Joseph pointed out relate to John 3:16?

HankD

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

That, I believe, is answered in the conclusion of that passage which states the following:

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

God sent his son to die as an atonement for our sins because he loved us. All who recieve by faith this free gift from God, will be saved and restored. The lost, however, do not seek God and have become altogether worthless because of their totally depraved sin natures, which shows the grace and mercy of God that he would still die for our sins and save any of us. There is no boasting in salvation, save in the death of Christ our Lord. It is God who saves us and gives us the faith to believe and equips us to do the work that God has set before us:

4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.

2 Corinthians 3:4-5

When I read this passage last night in my Bible reading plan, it reminded me of Moses at the burning bush, making excuses as to why all his weaknesses would keep him from doing what God told him to do. God's response each time to each excuse was "I will be with you". It is the power of God which gets beyond the total depravity of man (our spiritual weakness) and transforms and saves us (God is with us). Only God can give us that kind of faith. It certainly is not something we sought out ourselves, or would have been capable of having since we were slaves to sin.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Grasshopper]

What about the image and likeness of God?
Certainly that is a good thing?

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

However after the Fall, man carried the image of his fallen father:

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

 

[HankD]

Grasshoppper:
Even after the fall man is said to be in the image of God (Genesis 9).

Joseph:
Agreed, without God we have no value because He is the source of all goodness.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Without God we have no power because He is the source of all power.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The image of God:
I had a coin once which was classified as extremely rare and valuble except for one thing.

It had a gouge on the face.

I took it to a coin dealer who looked at it and said "It has no value, it's been defaced".

It was the pristine image on the coin that gave the coin it's value.

The image of God can and has been restored in the children of God:

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by HankD:
Thank you Joseph.

Anyone else?

How does the Scripture which Joseph pointed out relate to John 3:16?

HankD

It relates more to Psalm 14, where it is directly quoted from. This is talking about the "fool", not all mankind.

 

[4His_glory]

While Ps. 14 does mention the fool, it also mentions all of mankind.

The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. (NKJV)

God looked upon the children of men- that mean's mankind, and he saw that none were good. That they were all corrupt, not just the fool. Also all who are without Christ are fools.

 

[Benjamin]

Can the sovereignty of God be logically upheld through “extrinsically efficacious grace” allowing man to have a free will to accept salvation and to come to God for it all to exist together according to God’s will? I think it can and total depravity is superfluous to the discussion as it is interpreted in so many different ways and always ends up in a circular debate; the idea of all these things working together for salvation is opposed by the doctrines of Calvinism and Arminianism as impossible to be compatible so is lost while trying to make these systems fit. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Skandelon]

Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist dogma, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

more here

 

[takor]

Hello Hellen, Thank you for the welcome.
Also, Benjamin I agree with your statement and verses given.

Another thought: I think that there are subjects in the Bible that seem to contradict, but, with a closer examination we will see that they do not. Example: The two natures of our Lord Jesus Christ. If one is trained to see only the human nature, that is all that he is going to see. If he is trained to see the divine nature then again, that is all that person will see. Why not simply accept that Christ had two natures?
In our case here I have seen statements that support total depravity or total free will. There are verses in the Bible to support anything we want to support but, are those verses legitimate for the subject we are trying to support?
I can clearly see the sovereignty of God and the free will of man to choose.
I do believe that all starts with God, meaning that God is the one who initiates the call. Look these verses up.
Proverbs 1:23; Isaiah 31:6, 59:20; Ezekiel 14:6, 18:32, 9:11; Joel 2:12;
Matthew 18:3; Acts 3:19; Hebrews 6:1.
The call is for repentance. Then the person is free to choose, after God has called. The knowledge of God comes first then the person rejects or accepts.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I am not Calvinist nor Arminianist I am a BIBLICIST ( I think that is how it is spelled)
In Gods table of truth there is sovereignty and there is free will. And I am not talking about salvation by works, because it is the gift of God. God provides salvation by grace and we are responsible to accept the invitation. Faith is not works either as I saw someone writing. Faith is the acceptance of Gods gift to us “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. “

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In Christ

 

[JBHorn]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist dogma, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

more here

Sounds like you're making a case for Sovereign Grace to me.

JB

 

[takor]

The image used in Genesis is the word “icon” as in picture.
The word image used in Hebrews is the word “character” which is an engraving like on a coin without the character on the coin the coin has no value. That is why Jesus is the express image of God meaning without Jesus we have no true knowledge of God. Jesus said to Phillip “if you have seen me you have seen the father”
Man, I can preach on that.!!!
Now we are not the image that Christ is of God but we are an icon of God.
Hope this helps
In christ