Total Depravity

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by JBHorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skandelon:
Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist dogma, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

more here

Sounds like you're making a case for Sovereign Grace to me.

JB </font>[/QUOTE]If you mean by "sovereign grace" the dogma called, "Calvinism," then you obviously don't understand the point of my argument. Go back and read it one more and try again.

If you mean something else by the term "sovereign grace" then please explain.

 

[takor]

Originally posted by OldRegular:

Originally posted by takor:
[qb] 4. Please provide verses for the statement that "After God quickens our spirit we can choose."

Please excuse my English.
In Christ

Perhaps the best passage of Scripture to answer the above question is Ephesians 2:1-9 [from the KJV and the New KJV].

[
Notice in Verse 1 the phrase "hath He quickened" in the JKV is replaced by "He made alive" in the NKJV. Neither of these phrases were in the original Greek but were added in the KJV and NKJV for clarity.

Notice in that Verses 1, 4, and 5 we are told that while we were still dead in tresspass and sin [that is spiritually dead or in a state of Total Depravity] God made us spiritually alive without any action on our part. Also notice that in Verse 8 we are told that God gives us the gift of faith through which we are able to believe.

John Dagg, a Southern Baptist of the 19th Century writes of the above events as follows: [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]

Well I have to agree and disagree. The Greek still does not say “quickened”.
and I also would say that the Bible says “dead” not “total deprived “ that is the
Calvinist assumption or interpretation of the word “dead”.
What Dagg says is all nice and very intellectual, I would put it in fewer words as
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Please read my prevue statement about us getting to know God.
In Christ

 

[takor]

Originally posted by donnA:
I think the whole thing is a sovereignty (sp?) issue. Is God in control or is He not? Does God give up control to man? Haven't seen that in scripture.

Originally posted by donnA:

God is always in control. Just because God leaves things on mans hands some times that does not limit his sovereignty. Statements like that show our inability to understand God. Just because Jesus did not turn the rocks to bread that did not limited his mighty power and sovereignty. Just because Moses seems to change Gods mind when dealing with God on mountain Sinai that does not limit God’s sovereignty. Just because God let Abraham to bargain for the souls in Sodom, that does not limit or lessens God’s sovereignty. Would you say that God is not in control of a sin infested, death rutting, evil living, lying, cheating, and miserable earth? Oh Yes, he is still in control of everything but he lets events unfold as he pleases eventhough that does not seem right in our eyes. Then I would say that we should not confuse Gods permissive will with his sovereignty.

In Christ

 

[JBHorn]

If you mean by "sovereign grace" the dogma called, "Calvinism," then you obviously don't understand the point of my argument. Go back and read it one more and try again.

If you mean something else by the term "sovereign grace" then please explain.

Skandelon,

Thank You for your reply. I have read your post and I understand that some are not allowed to hear and some are not allowed to see. And I do understand the point of your argument and feel you made it poorly. The point you actually make is that Christ is restrictive on who hears and understands His message.

But I understand you disagree with that.

Matthew

13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which said, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive:

Isaiah

6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see you indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

JB

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HankD:
Thank you Joseph.

Anyone else?

How does the Scripture which Joseph pointed out relate to John 3:16?

HankD

It relates more to Psalm 14, where it is directly quoted from. This is talking about the "fool", not all mankind. </font>[/QUOTE]The context of the Romans 3 passage says otherwise:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:

 

[Me4Him]

Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a "FLAMING SWORD" which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

"Flaming Sword??

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,

Joh 1:14 And the Word (Flaming Sword) was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

"JESUS" is the "GIFT" that opens up the way for man to "eat" of the "TREE OF LIFE" again, and that "GIFT" is offer to as many as had their way blocked, (became sinners) God not being willing for any to perish.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You'll have to go through the "flaming Sword" to get to the "TREE OF LIFE".

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by JBHorn:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If you mean by "sovereign grace" the dogma called, "Calvinism," then you obviously don't understand the point of my argument. Go back and read it one more and try again.

If you mean something else by the term "sovereign grace" then please explain.

Skandelon,

Thank You for your reply. I have read your post and I understand that some are not allowed to hear and some are not allowed to see. And I do understand the point of your argument and feel you made it poorly. The point you actually make is that Christ is restrictive on who hears and understands His message.

But I understand you disagree with that.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you don't understand my position nor do you understand the position of most Arminian scholars. I believe that Christ was being restrictive on who understood his message, that was the point. Read the post one more time -slowly- and try again.


Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist dogma, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

 

[JBHorn]

John3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Skandelon,

Thank you again for your courteous reply. God is always restrictive. I have never heard of the "inability to believe." Simon believed (Acts 8:13), Satan believes and so does his demands (Mark 5).


John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus to him, That you do, do quickly.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be! 15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.” 18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires. 19 You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?”

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.... 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I to you, that no man can come to me, except it were given to him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Eph 1:4 According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 2: 8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Bro. James]

Amen.

It is obvious from the scripture that Jacobus Arminius, etal, did not spend much time in Romans Ch. 9 and Ephesians Ch. 2. Most folks can find a scripture which seems to fit a preconceived notion. It is the "whole counsel of God" which stands.

That there is a "little good" in everyone is a salvation by works doctrine which goes back to Cain and his sacrifice which was unacceptable to God. Our best is still filthy rags without the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[JBHorn]

demons that is..

 

[webdog]

It is obvious from the scripture that Jacobus Arminius, etal, did not spend much time in Romans Ch. 9 and Ephesians Ch. 2. Most folks can find a scripture which seems to fit a preconceived notion. It is the "whole counsel of God" which stands.

...or maybe John Calvin spent a little TOO MUCH time on those passages, fitting the rest into them. Context rules.

 

[JBHorn]

Can anyone tell me how an Arminian prays for the salvation of a loved one without asking God to interfere with their free will?

Why when Christ prayed did he end His prayer request with "nevertheless not what I will, but what you will"? Sounds like something J. Calvin would say when praying for his love ones.

I always wondered why Paul wrote all that stuff about the elect/chosen anyway. He had free will in his salvation didn't he?

But for me I'm a weak and evil man and I never could have come to Christ without His help. Yes I got a call that I couldn't refuse and I thank God His will was stronger than mine.

But I'm getting off topic here this is about TOTAL DEPRAVITY, so how long can you go without sinning? Look at your timex and try not to think any sinful thoughts ... ready go!


JB

 

[RayMarshall19]

Somebody tell me if this makes sense.

1. Sin is, literally, missing the target.
2. Until we are saved God doesn't give us any targets to shoot at.
3. All the shots we fire while unsaved can't hit a target if we don't have any.
4. So, before we are saved everything we do (every shot we fire) is sin.
5. If all we can do is sin then we are totally depraved (evil), even if we don't mean to be.

 

[JBHorn]

RayMarshall19,

You may be right.
Mat 12:30 Anyone who is not with Me is against Me, and anyone who does not gather with Me scatters. (HCSB)

JB

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by JBHorn:
Can anyone tell me how an Arminian prays for the salvation of a loved one without asking God to interfere with their free will?

Why when Christ prayed did he end His prayer request with "nevertheless not what I will, but what you will"? Sounds like something J. Calvin would say when praying for his love ones.

I always wondered why Paul wrote all that stuff about the elect/chosen anyway. He had free will in his salvation didn't he?

But for me I'm a weak and evil man and I never could have come to Christ without His help. Yes I got a call that I couldn't refuse and I thank God His will was stronger than mine.

But I'm getting off topic here this is about TOTAL DEPRAVITY, so how long can you go without sinning? Look at your timex and try not to think any sinful thoughts ... ready go!


JB

I think that free will isn't always free. First of all there are earthly things that get in the way. For instance, you are all set to go on vacation when your boss comes in and tells you about an important new project that must be finished within the next week. Your will says you still want to go on vacation but you decide that's not the best idea.

I also believe that God can and does intervene in the world and overrides our free will.

Actually, I would ask the same question of Calvinists. If the elect are determined before the beginning of time, of what value is it to pray to God that someone be saved. It's going to happen anyway, right?

 

[JBHorn]

StraightAndNarrow,
Thank you Straight for your question.

I also believe that God can and does intervene in the world and overrides our free will.

So salvation can change from person to person?

Actually, I would ask the same question of Calvinists. If the elect are determined before the beginning of time, of what value is it to pray to God that someone be saved. It's going to happen anyway, right?

Because God said to do it. He ask us to pray for our enemies, all mankind. It is the same as helping the poor you glorify God by doing it. We have one purpose in our life here on earth and that is to glorify our Lord. And a Calvinist will end his prayer as Christ ended His, "But not My will but Yours." Luke 22:42, Mark 14:36

These are the words of your Messiah.

John 6:

37 “All those who the Father gives me will come to me. Him who comes to me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Again

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.”

And again

65 He said, “For this cause have I said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father.”


JB

 

[Me4Him]

1. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

1A. 2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life;

2A. Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

3. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,

3A. Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

4. Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.

4a. Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

When the "FREE WILL" of man is taken out of scripture/salvation, there's "Serious contradiction" in both.

 

[JBHorn]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
1. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

1A. 2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees [/b the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life;

2A. Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

3. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,

3A. Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

4. Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.

4a. Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

When the "FREE WILL" of man is taken out of scripture/salvation, there's "Serious contradiction" in both.

And that is want Total Depravity is all about. Mans free will is not taken from him. What man in his right mind would ever take death over life? But that is what man does (Total Depravity) without God stepping in. To prove this some are allowed to hear and some are not. If all were allowed to hear and understand all would choose life, but all will not listen, Christ message is restricted.

Again:

Matthew

13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which said, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive:

Isaiah

6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, but understand not; and see you indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

let him that heareth say, everyone who sees

The contradiction is to say that man can save himself, that he is righteous enough to turn down the serpent in the garden. That he will take Gods gift of ever lasting life in the Garden Of Eve.

I know I could not have made it without Gods help. Maybe you did, if so you are a better man than I.

All glory to Him
JB