Total Depravity

Scripture says at John 6.63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life."

It is the spirit that quickeneth;

The spirit is the Holy Spirit. Notice Jesus is speaking this in the presence of offended "disciples" and further in context at vs. 65 he states "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

The next vs. is very interested because Jesus did the very same thing Calvinists are accused of:

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

He drove these away with His hard doctrine. Image that, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, who shall be in the presence of the damned along with His holy angels as they are tormented (Rev. 14) drove these disciples from Himself.

Jesus said this to show that it is the spirit which must quicken and following because of the curiosities of the flesh would profit nothing.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Now here we have one of the most amazing feats of magic! Yelsew quotes a verse from the Bible, and it's a verse that echoes exactly the meaning I had described!! And yet Yelsew manages to imagine it means something else!

Here's the same verse in the NKJV:

Here it is in the NIV:

Here's the NASB:

Here's Darby:

King James 21st Century:

English Standard Version:

Contemporary English Version:

Are we beginning to notice a difference in the majority of translations yet? Since Jesus is practically saying the same thing as is said in Ephesians 2, the identity of the "spirit" as the Holy Spirit is implied. But it only need be implied in a few translations, since it is explicitly capitalized and identifed as the Holy Spirit in the majority of translations.

Oh, but surely Yelsew has a personal revelation from God that it is a mistake to draw any connection to parallel passages in Ephesians 2, 1 Corinthians, etc., and that the majority of translations are wrong, too! Thus we prove that free will not only has the power to save, but it is so powerful a force that it can change the meaning of words!

 

Another haggard argument or puttying of the walls is that a sinner is as dead as a 'corpse.' Ephesians 2:1 does, however, tell us that we are ' . . . dead and in traspasses and in sins;' but is a poor parallelism because of these reasons. Gordon H. Clark writes 'A dead man cannot exercise faith in Jesus Christ.' {Gordon H. Clark, The Biblical Doctrine of Man (The Trinity Foundation, 1984, p.102} His polemic is a very weak one because a human, dead man cannot be Divinely energized by the Spirit into regeneration; nor can a dead corpse reject Christ or sin.

On the Christian side of things we are told that we are to be dead toward sin. [Romans 6:2,7,11] but this does not mean that we are incapable of being tempted or even involved in a particular sin, of our liking. God forbid!

Take this ill-formed concept of a dead corpse or body and commingle it with this upstart, rebel, Roman Catholic, John Calvin, defiled by Augustinian philosophy and you have spawned forever, on the Christian people, the erroneous concept of Total Depravity.

Even Dr. Pink's hybrid Calvinism is too extreme for some moderate Calvinists, once said, 'There are some who say, the unregenerate are dead, and that ends the matter; they cannot have any responsibility . . . A corpse in the cemetery is no suitable analogy of the natural man. {meaning the sinner} A corpse in the cemetery is incapable of performing evil! A corpse cannot "despise and reject" Christ [Isaiah 53:3], cannot "resist the Holy Spirit" [Acts 7:51], cannot disobey the Gospel [II Thessalonians 1:8], but the natural man can and does do these things!' (Arthur W. Pink, Studies in the Scriptures, 1927 p. 250-261)

Even one of your own Calvinist interpreters, clearly suggests that the analogy of a corpse is a wrong choice for explaining a human beings alleged inability to come to Christ. In fact, the Word of God suggests the opposite view. [John 5:40] And Jesus our Lord said, 'And you will not come to Me, that you might have life.' There is not one iota of 'the bondage of the will' found in this passage or any other on the hallowed pages of holy writ.

We understand that human beings are sinful even depraved; what we most strongly reject is the teaching of a sinner's inability to understand and believe the Gospel which is the 'power of God unto salvation.' This doctrine has helped 'log jam'and weaken Jesus mandate to preach His truth to every person, [Mark 16:16] especially those who wrongly believe that He has only His select few who are going to be 'tapped on the shoulder' for everlasting life above.

 

Bro. Ray,

Not being able to despise and reject is not the question. Man is born into this condition and does not realize he is despising and rejecting anything.

Also, one not able to despise and reject would be equally unable to love and accept.

God Bless.

Bro. Dallas

 

That's going to come as a shock to Lazarus, Jesus, and all the others who came out of their graves.

Regardless, you're simply abusing the simile. We are dead to the things of God, not physically dead. While the graveyard is a good picure of our spiritual condition, it does not mean one can refute it by applying the same analogy to our inclination to sin, or our ability get up in the morning. To do so is not only disingenous, it contradicts scripture. You, yourself quote,

"And Jesus our Lord said, 'And you will not come to Me, that you might have life.'"

Why do we need life if we're not dead? And why does scripture repeatedly say we are dead if what it means to say is that we're slightly alive?

Is the Holy Spirit really as incompetent as you make it out to be? It says over and over again that we are dead in our sins, we have no ability, we have all gone astray, no one seeks God, no one is righteous, no one can do anything without the enabling of God, no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him, the mind of the flesh is death, we receive our faith as a gift, and so many more verses that say in plain language that we play no part in our salvation.

In sharp contrast, the Holy Spirit can't seem to communicate free will except by vague inferences that cannot be confirmed with other scriptures. Yet you would rather put your faith in these vague inferences and assert that the clear statements must refer to something other than their plain meaning!!

 

Oh blind Guide hush up your babble!

I think you do not understand humanity, and being created in the image of God.

1. God is spirit therefore Man is spirit (the flesh is "housing and transportation for man's spirit)
2. God has attributes, that which is true of God, man has attributes, that which is true of man.
3. God made man with attributes and the fall took none of those attributes from man.
4. That which is true of Attributes applies the same for God and Man.
5. A divine, omnipotent, omniscient, transcendent being is always greater than a created being.

There are a lot more statements that can be made, but this is sufficient for now.
God is Grace
God is Love
God is Mercy
God is Just
God is _____ (what ever is true of God)

Man has grace
Man has love
Man has mercy
Man has justice (or at least as sense of justice)

It is in Spirit that God is, therefore everything of God is of the Spirit!
It is spirit that is the life of the flesh, therefore everything of man except the flesh, is of spirit!

Every attribute that man has is of spirit and not flesh except those attributes of flesh that have no long lasting reality and include physical beauty, strength, stamina, things sexual, etc. The things of man that man takes with him when he dies are the attributes of the spirit, grace, love, mercy, justice, etc. These attributes of the spirit are the fruits of the spirit for it is of these that Paul speaks in:

all of which are directly related to grace, love, mercy, justice, etc.

Every human has these spiritual attributes, that is what makes man man as opposed to bovine, kanine, feline, etc. Every man no matter how vile a person has and uses these attributes to achieve his own end.

You know many unsaved persons who exhibit the fruits of the spirit that you desire to see in Christians. How did they get them if not born with them? How is it they can have a gracious attitude or a sense of Justice, or Love or mercy that parallels your own if they do not have the same attributes that you have?

All mankind has the same stuff, we are made in the image of God, and we have the ability and indeed the obligation to choose to believe in Jesus, thus believing in God, the one who sent Jesus to redeem us!

Don't be so short sighted and conceited as to believe that your were chosen before the foundation of the world, for truly all mankind was chosen to believe. Many do not, even though they have the ability and responsibility to do so.

 

Well, it's nice to see you quoting some books, even if they're not the Bible.

I recognize that. That's Non-Sequitur 1:1

Ah, yes, that's the book of Yelsew, STROV (Stating The Ridiculously Obvious Version) If I recall correctly, it goes on to say the sky has attributes which are true of the sky. And your left sock has attributes which are true of your left sock. Yes, I'm following you so far.

Okay, that's the book of Yelsew again.

Now you're back to Non-Sequitur 1:1

Back to Yelsew, STROV.

This is all great stuff, but I recommend you try the Bible for some information. Sure, it hurts a little at first, but that goes away after a while.

 

Nepetreley,

It won't fly.

Lazarus resurrection was physical not spiritual resurrection and life. Lazarus knew the Lord before his physical death. In your life time how many people have you met or even heard of who were resurrected from physical death?

 

I was not the one to raise the issue of Lazarus, although I agree it could be symbolic of the same thing. However, I based my arguments on scriptures about the Spirit, being dead in our sins, etc., not Lazarus. Your debating technique is called "changing the subject" - a standard logical fallacy employed when you can't refute the argument on its own terms.

For more information, here are some decent sites that describe logical fallacies and disingenuous debating techniques:

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.htm

http://education.gsu.edu/spehar/FOCUS/EdPsy/misc/Fallacies.htm

http://www.omegapage.com/foundations/Studies/logical_falacies.htm

http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~robertme/8-29-02.htm

 

If you believed the bible you would see every bit of what I posted there, for that is the source of what I posted. You simply refuse to open your eyes because you know if you do your own limited beliefs would change pretty dramatically. The only constant in man is change. From birth to death we are in constant change, except for those who refuse to leave "their comfort zone", then end up stagnant, Luke warm in the mouth of God, who will spew them out.

[ February 06, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

No where in the Bible does His precious Word indicate that we can use the metaphor/ illustration of a 'dead body'-a corpse. This kind of an illustration is similar to when the Mormons say that the Book of Mormon also is the Word of God. Christian orthodox theologians do not use 'extra-Biblical' props to support any doctrines of the Bible. The corpse concept is a dead issue. As I said before even one of your own, Dr. Pink suggest that it is an incorrect approach in trying to get people to swallow the idea of "Total Depravity." Remember Dr. Pink eliminates this literary ploy. Such a knowledgeable Calvinist should be able to get you to rethink your position. Simply said, don't trust me.

 

Nepetreley,

I read your response. I agree with much of what you said but still disagree with you about humans having ' . . . no ability.' We have intellect, conscience and a will. God the Spirit uses these Divinely planted realities in sinners in order to touch those who hear the Gospel. God the Spirit is all-powerful, but he never overrides the will of human beings.

He does not override the decision of Christians in Revelation 3:20 as to obeying and returning to the Lord. He does not knock down the door; He knocks at the heart's door.

 

Dr. Pink also is a man.

Bro. Dallas

 

Read my Death and life in Romans 8 post, then. The Bible clearly declares our inability.

 

Inability to what?

Inability to believe?
Inability to choose?
Inability to repent?
inability to confess?
inability to know?

What specific inability are you are you claiming for man?

 

Yelsew,

I didn't see anyone quickly jump on your post in answering your questions. The reason why is because the answers are all too obvious. 'Inability' is an innovative, humanistic, Calvinistic caricature.

Believing in Jesus is a simple act of trusting His Word's of truth as to forgiveness and cleansing. 'Out of the blue,' God says throught the Apostle Paul, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.' Just think, no special drawing of the Holy Spirit, no regeneration, no alleged "Effectual Call;"nothing but trusting in Jesus. A wonderful and simple plan of God toward human beings.

 

Yes, that is how God made it so easy for sinful man to believe and by believing in the salvation that God provided to man 2000 years ago to be redeemed into spiritual relationship with God who made him in the first place.

God made the plan that requires nothing but belief on man's part. Belief is not a work unto salvation or redemption. Therefore, man has nothing for which he can claim credit thus no boasting.

God allowed man to sin by including sin in his creation, unless of course you think that the serpent was not part of God's creation. If not, from whence cometh the serpent?

Now, why would God who enables both good and evil, make it impossible for man, who is the prize for which good and evil struggle, to accept and believe of his own free will which he will choose.

Eternity is a long, long, long, long time. If you've ever traveled long distance with children to a place not of the children's choosing, you know that before the trip the kids were not so eager to go, and before you reach the city limits, the kids are already rebelling in their own way, and continue to do so until arriving at the destination. When the children are going to a place they choose their behavior is significantly different. We are God's children.

 

Ray,

An hour and a half passed between Yelsew's post and yours. To say that this indicates an inability to gie a scriptural answer is laughable. it is behaviour like that which gives cause to question the validity and value of your alleged ThD.

But let us caonsider Yelsew's post:

"Inability to believe?"

Yes

"Inability to choose?" Yes, in that man is not free to choose God. The sin nature prevents it.

"Inability to repent?"
In salvific terms, yes.

"inability to confess?"
No

"inability to know?"

No.

That's my opinion anyway, based on my understanding of those terms. Of course Yelsew has a hanit of using terms with a slightly, shall we say, eccentricly, so who knows how that might impact things.


It is truly laughable to say that Calvanistic ideas are an innovation since they are traceable to Augustine and Scripture. When was Arminius born?

Humanistic? Well arminiaism is certainly that, if not outright hertical in being Pelagian. At best it is semi-Pelagian.

The way you ignore the plain staements of scriptre about the bondage of the will, minimising the impact of sin and the Fall, all the while ignoring the fact that you have to assume and read in ability to texts which speak nothing of it is truly regrettable considering your claims to be educated.

Yeslsew,

Such a statement disqualifies you from informed intelligent discussion of Calvanism. YOu have ben told often enough how Effectual call is not about dragging a person into heaven against their will.

Such straw man presentations, without an iota of scriptural support, amply testify to the theological bankruptcy that is your belief system.

 

No real defense or opinion, so we revert to the opinions of the dead to support what we don't know! We revert to labeling the beliefs and opinions of others without adding any significant thought indicating how we, ourselves, who are living human beings, interface with the Holy Word of God.

 

Yelsew,

Npeterley has given ample defense substantiated with detailed exposition of scripture. What have you and Roamn bear done? Roamnbear offers bald assertions, and you make arguments based on doctrines no one believes but you attribute (eroneously) to calvanists. If anyone is offering opinion without any reality or substance to it, it is not the calvanists.

Opinions of the dead? LOL. Lad, you can't charge something with being innoivative and then get on its case for pointing out its historicity and expect to be taken seriously.

Labeling beliefs? Well lad, if the shoe fits... If you don't like being lumped in with heretics you might reconsider espousing their teachings.