Total Depravity

Larry,

Yelsew is not interested in refuting Total Depravity. He insists on discussing his version of it, which of course no one believes.

Just look at the way he redefies TD to suit himself. He is presumes to teach but is not yet a student.

Johnv:

Total Depravity is biblical then since TD is something that does not affect the fact that man was created, origianlly, very goo or in the image of God. What it teaches, simply, is that every aspect of human nature has been affected by the Fall such that man cannot respond to god ina such away that he should be jusdged righteous by God.

 

Primitive Baptist,

I agree with you that Transubstantiation is wrong theology. It feels good to be agreeing with you as to this particular doctrine.

As part of my doctoral dissertation I researched the fact that Calvin systematized the same doctrines that Augustine believed. I was surprized that James Hunt in his book, "What Love Is This," came to the same conclusion. If you think that the Word of God teaches the Five Points of Calvinism, you are in perfect harmony with the Medieval Roman Catholic Church as well as with the new Reformation,convert to Protestantism, namely, Father John Calvin.

I guess we should get back to the subject of Total Depravity.

 

Have you considered Abraham? What about Job? What about Nehemiah? Habakkuk? Or `ny of the other PRE-Jesus men of God? How did they do it? How did they "earn" the favor of God to be included in God's Holy Word? They did not have the Cross to look back upon. Were they exempt from your total depravity? Or, did they choose to believe in God and try diligently to live their life in a righteous manner? Who was their Savior? Redeemer?

It is unfair of you to claim that I am not interested in refuting Total depravity. That is what losers say when they lose!

[ December 31, 2002, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Human beings since the Fall are depraved but not 'totally depraved,' otherwise God could not have said after the Fall that humans were still created in 'the image of God.' At the time of Noah in Genesis chapter nine we find God speaking through the author of the book saying, ' . . . for in the image of God made he man.' [vs. 6]

In James 3:9 Jesus' half brother tells us that man and woman are created yet 'after the similitude of God.' A human being could not be made after the likeness of God and at the same time be 'totally depraved.'

Plus every human being is born with a conscience and an awareness of the reality of God. The Apostle John says that Jesus is the true Light and that He ' . . . lighteth every man who cometh into the world.' You will find that Bible commentators do not offer much by way of exegesis on this verse in John 1:9.

I believe that every Divine attribute that is incorporated in the nature of God can also be found in the life of human beings, but to a much, much lesser degree. This allows a human being to become responsive to the call of God in the matter of personal salvation. In other words, he or she can sense the true love of God that calls for a belief in this Jesus of the Cross.

 

Hi Primitive Baptist;
I believe man is a sinner naturally.But this does not mean that he does not recognize that something is missing.Man has looked for the one true God in just about all cultures.Sadly he has rarely found Him.There is no good man.This does not how ever mean that he has no desire for good.When man finds good in the Bible and realizes that he needs a savior he has the ability to choose.The Holy Spirit draws all men when they hear the gospel. This why Christ said to preach the gospel to every living creature.Why would you say Christ ordered this if it wasn't intended to give all man a choice.What scripture do I have to prove my point?Answer;The entire Bible is full of choices that God has given man down through the ages and the decisions they made and the rewards that were given them or the punishments they received for not choosing the right the right path. Just because man is a sinner by nature doesn't mean that he doesn't know right from wrong.There are a lot of sinners who don't sin like some who claim Christianity.There are some who don't know Christ who live a very moral life.This doesn't save them, but it does show that they have to know right from wrong.Someone who is totally depraved doesn't know right from wrong nor can they.To me a person who is totally depraved has been given up on by God.God no longer draws them because they won't accept him.God calls all men when they here the gospel some reject and some accept.Some have rejected so many times that eventually they are given over to total depravity.I my self rejected at first because I was afraid I was going to have to give something up.As I learned through curiosity I became so convinced that I accepted.I had to reach the bottom of the barrel so to speak. Some how ever still reject Him. Not all men are totally depraved.
I however am a follower of Christ and not that of any man.John Calvin doesn't deserve all the praise that is given him for his doctrine. It is however a doctrine of man.It only seems scriptural to those who are convinced that it is.It's the same for Arminism, it to is not totally correct. No doctrine is except that doctrine of the Bible.It's up to us to understand it and very few do.This includes me as well.We all have to realize that no one has a perfect doctrine.We should all keep our hearts open to truth even when it hurts...

May God Bless you
Romanbear
Peace

 

By faith. Read Hebrews.

Jesus. You seem to think everything has to happen on the time line that you, as a limited human, perceive to be linear.

....oh, never mind....

 

Npetreley said,

</font>[/QUOTE]Doesn't that adequately refute total depravity? After all, if the men of God of the past can be counted as righteous by the faith they demonstrated, why can't man be a man of God today by the same means? Has God changed? Has man changed?

Is the premise of "total depravity" true? NO! Man can still hear and respond to God in an act of man's own free will!
Is the premise that ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God true? YES! (even Abraham)
Can the unsaved "hear the Word" and come to belief (faith)? YES, that is the only way they can be saved, for the least sin condemns us to death. But, we are saved from that "second death" by our faith in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.

Man can, by exercise of free will and Faith in God, live in accordance with faith and be found Righteous today as in the days of old, for it is by Faith in God! We walk by faith and not by sight!

Can we save ourselves? NO, not any more than Abraham could save himself. God is the only one who can save, but he does not save the unwilling!

 

This is unrelated. The fact of total depravity does not change the way that men are counted righteous. Man is counted righteous by faith in Christ. That does not negate total depravity. Total depravity is more akin (though not identical) to placing a piece of liver in front of me. I will not eat it under any circumstances. My nature abhors it; it is revulsive to me. My own free choice is to reject it.

In the matter of depravity, men are making choices of their own free will. They do not want to do anything else. It is a moral inability that prevents them from coming.

On this you are right. But that free choice is always to reject God according to Scripture.

And no one here (except the PBs) argue that he does. We all recognize that God does not save the unwilling. It is God who works in you both to will and to do his good pleasure.

 

Doesn't that adequately refute total depravity? After all, if the men of God of the past can be counted as righteous by the faith they demonstrated, why can't man be a man of God today by the same means? Has God changed? Has man changed? </font>[/QUOTE]Respectively: No; You misunderstand where they got their faith; No; No.

Your reasoning is consistent only if you ignore much of the Bible and attribute faith to free will. But if you accept what the Bible says about man's condition, and the fact that man receives faith as a gift, then total depravity is perfectly consistent both logically and Biblically.

 

Good illustration. The one I use is what happens when I try to get my kids to eat vegetables.

I think we agree 100% or close to it in principle, I've come to a point, however, where I'd probably state things a little differently. I agree that we choose whatever we will according to the flesh. And as long as God doesn't "veto" our choices, it seems like freedom to us because we choose whatever we wish, unaware that our wishes are confined to what the flesh desires. But I would say that men don't make these "choices of their own free will." If the will is inclined to sin, it is not free.

[ January 01, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

KEYWORD: "receives", an action of free will, the opposite of which is "rejects". It takes willingness and action to receive, else it be forced upon us. Man still holds the key!

 

"Received" is necessarily an action of free will? Perhaps you think so because sometime in your past you received a blow to the head (which you no doubt chose to receive of your own free will)?

 

Have you considered Abraham? What about Job? What about Nehemiah? Habakkuk? Or any of the other PRE-Jesus men of God? How did they do it? How did they "earn" the favor of God to be included in God's Holy Word? They did not have the Cross to look back upon. Were they exempt from your total depravity? Or, did they choose to believe in God and try diligently to live their life in a righteous manner? Who was their Savior? Redeemer?

It is unfair of you to claim that I am not interested in refuting Total depravity. That is what losers say when they lose!</font>[/QUOTE]Of course I have considerd those people. Look at them: Abraham, called by God, Job, picked out by God. All God's initiative. And who gets to make the call on their righteousnes? God. From first to last salvation is of God.

And it is not at all unfair to pointout that youu are not interested in dealing with TD. It is a fact. You have not actually addressed the actual doctrine. You have only addressed something from the recessess of your imagination that YOU choose to call TD.

You have said that TD denies free will. It does not. It simply acknowledges that free will is not truly free in the sense of gbeing equally abe to make all choices. It is a free wil conditioned by fallen nature.

Even you belive that free will is conditioned. You are not able to choose absolutely anything and make it happen simply by choosing.

The question then is wht conditions free will. The biblical answer is: the Fall. It has marred (but not destroyed) the Image of God in man. It affects every aspect of human nature.

Until you can discuss the Calvanist understandig of TD, and not your own, your simply making a straw man. That is not the statement of a loser bu of one who knows that his erstwhile opponent is only shadow boxing at home while he alone stands in the ring.

[ January 01, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Latreia ]

 

Ray;please tell me that you have not fallen for that line of trash that Dave Hunt calls the truth? He himself admitted to having never read any of Calvin's or Luthers works nor even knowing what Reformed Theology is !!! Not only that,but,he sent his manuscript to two friends of his which are Calvinist's to look over and help him to edit anything that was in error about Calvinism,they pointed out several misquotes and untruths which he said that he would remove before sending it to press and makes a statement in his book that he did in fact remove them,but he did not.He also takes statements by Spurgeon and Newton out of context.He claims that Newton denied being a Calvinist and anyone who has read Newton knows without a doubt that that is a lie!Unfotunately,far too many people will be influenced by Hunt's misrepresentation of the truth!

 

Yelsew;Is the doctrine of total depravity Biblical? YES! All of our actions(apart from saving grace)are morally ruined.Everything an unbeliever does is sinful and unacceptable by God.One reason for believing this comes from 1Cor.10:31 Now I ask you is it sin to disobey this Biblical commandment? YES! It is sin to eat or drink or do anything NOT for the glory of God Sin is not just a list of things such as killing,stealing and so on.Sin is leaving God out of account in the ordinary affairs of your life.Sin is anything you do that you don't do for the glory of God.What is there that unbelievers can do for the glory of God?Absolutely nothing!Therefore everything that they do is sinful.And that,simply stated means that apart from saving grace,all we do is morally ruined.The question could be asked:how do you eat and drink to the glory of God? Say,for instance,breakfast and drinking juice?1Tim.4:3-5,everything created by God is good,and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.Breakfast was created to be received with gratitude by those who believe the truth.Therefore,unbelievers cannot use breakfast for the purpose God intended-namely,as an occasion for heartfelt thanksgiving to God fron a true heart of faith.But,believers can,and this is how they glorify God.Their eating of breakfast is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.The word of God teaches us that breakfast,and even our strength to eat it,is a free gift of God(1Cor.4:7;1Peter 4:11)The prayer is our humble response of thanks from the heart.Believing this truth in the word,and offering thanks in prayer is one way we eat breakfast to the glory of God.

 

Hi Primitive Baptist;
I realize that you are convinced of the total depravity of man.But none of the verses you posted say man is totally depraved.They say man is a sinner.Totally depraved would mean no chance of hope.So are you saying there is no chance of hope for man?.What about Christ, He is man's hope for salvation.Could you answer just one question please?Why did Christ order the disciples to preach the gospel to every creature?giving everyone the chance to believe...There is no other reason for it but, to offer everyone a choice, a decision, that affects our eternal destiny.If man was totally depraved he wouldn't even listen.So why didn't he just say preach to the ones I show you who are elected.
May God bless you
Romanbear
Peace

 

"Totally depraved would mean no chance of hope."

This is why such discussions are fruitless.

Here we have some trying to argue what Total Depravity "would mean". Never mind what it actually teaches.

Is there anybody here who denies TD who can do so refuting the ACTUAL doctrine, and nt what it "would" or "should" mean?

So far I haven't seen anyone.

 

Free will makes no choices! Free will is not the man, but it is the means by which man makes choices, and God is the one who gave that means to man!

Total depravity, if it exists, acknowledges nothing, men do. If it exists, it is a human condition, and it is a condition that a human can escape with the right motivation. God tells us that he has not made anything in his creation too difficult for man, even escape from depravity. 'No temptation is too great'! God offers man that motivation, and the means, but man must accept it and act accordingly, using his free will. Man is in control of his own destiny for the duration of this temporal life. He can choose to deliberately submit his life to God, or to keep himself in control at the helm. That is God's given plan, because God wants NO unwilling servants and worshippers. He gives us the choice as to whether or not we submit to him.

Why would God, if we are made in his image, enslave us, denying us thd right and ability to choose for ourselves? He did not create robots, he created "free agents". You claim that we are not free until God changes us by some mysterious action that only he knows. I say we are free and can choose to live by our own standards. And that God offers us more than we are, but we are left with the decision. That, by the way, is why most Christian literature tells us that 'we must make 'a decision for Christ'. If we do not have free will, we cannot choose.

Now open your eyes and look around. No matter where in God's creation man is, he has and exercises his free will. In most cases, it is not a pretty sight, because man fails to recognize God. However, laced throughout the bad, is the good, those who have recognized, and submitted themselves to God. There is a spiritual warfare going on for the captivating of all mankind, we call that a struggle between good and evil. Neither Good nor evil can take unwilling captives, they must submit themselves to either good or evil. Evil has the advantage due to sin being part of human nature, the result of man's exercising of free will, and the state of relationship that it established. For good to triumph in man, man must hear and believe the Word of God, then by another exercising of free will, must choose to accept what God is offering. Then continuing to exercise free will must follow Gods teachings which are diametrically opposed to evil.

Though man bears the responsibility for choosing, he cannot follow God's teachings without the assistance of the Holy Spirit. Redeemed man can "grieve" the Holy Spirit by willingly sinning and being disobedient, so man does not give up "free will". To say that because of the fall man lost "free will" is pure foolishness.

You can choose absolutely anything within the constraints of the creation...even life!. To be able to choose "absolutely anything" one would have to be divine spirit! Even Satan, the father of lies is constrained, he cannot create, and he cannot choose life!

False boasts were expected from you. You prematurely announce my demise, unless you are quitting but can't find your way out of the ring!

Please point out specifically what it is about TD that you think I am failing to address? It seems to me that you are the one who is not addressing TD. You are too fond of accusing me to post any intelligent discussion points.