Total Depravity...

I agree that belief does not always equal what we call "saving" faith. Yet it does always maintain its definition.

Maybe that is where you and I are miscommunicating.

Belief can mean acknowledging of truth but not obedience to it, but how?
Belief means the action of what one agrees with. And if there is no action toward the intellectual acknowledgment it reveals the converse to which they ARE acting in accordance to. Their belief is then identified as a false (or non-salvic/Godless) belief because of their actions (contrary to their mental assent) AND the lack of action to that mental assent agreed. Due to this lack of action showing what they truly acknowledge verses what they intellectually agree to. We call it being double minded.

Faith without works is dead.

The meaning has not changed and the object is still in view to which one acts. But the belief is identified as Godless or Godfearing.
mental or intellectual assent verses saving belief/faith.

 

Excellent post Sky!

JDale

 

Thanks for the clarifications MB -- I perceive that we aren't that far apart in principle and application Be careful though -- the hardline Calvinists will be driven mad by your statement that"no one is born saved in election and predestination before the foundation of the world."

LOOK OUT! :tonofbricks:


JDale

 

We still might be crossing signals a little (I can be a little dense )

When something is learned, it can be said that what is learned is a belief. I believe a chair can hold me. Why? I've seen people sit in them! (information given and recieved). We can learn from eyewitnesses, printed material, spoken words, etc. Now, belief is the result of the processing of the information received, and your mental capacity to receive it. Beliefs are formed in the mind.

Faith, on the other hand, is an action taken on behalf of what information and truths are processed. I don't have faith that the chair will hold me until I sit in it. I believe it will hold me, as I've seen people sit in them, but until I actually take action on that belief, I have not demonstrated faith in the chair's ability to hold me.

My son can be with me at the pool watching as I catch child after child jumping into the pool. My son believes in me and my ability that I can catch him, but until he jumps into my arms, he does not have faith in me.

Same thing with Christianity. I can believe what is written about Christ, that He died and rose again. I can believe apart from Him I'm on my way to Hell, but until I act out on that, the belief is worthless (and not any kind of faith, let alone "saving faith").

I believe that the context for where this phrase comes from parallels "a car without a battery is dead".
The faith is still faith, as the car is still a car, albeit both dead (not running).

 

It's true man must believe however it isn't man's faith that saves Him I believe scripture clearly shows this.
Paul said;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We only believe in the possibility as in ("we might be justified by the faith of Christ,"). Our faith has to much doubt. The question "will I really be saved" is heavy on the minds of men. The reason I say this is because it takes the perfect faith of Christ to save us. Our's simply isn't righteous enough to save. We receive faith by hearing the Word of God we believe from our heart this is necessary, we can't put on the righteousness of Christ with out believing from our heart our selves.
Christ spoke of the faith of the mustard seed and how it is sure to succeed. because it doesn't know how to fail. Mustard seeds aren't corrupted by the Knowledge of good and evil. As long as there is life in the seed and it has the needed soil and water it will survive and accomplish that which is was created for. Even if you plant it upside down it knows which way to grow. Men are doubtful and that doubt is why man's faith can't save Him. So as in Gal 2:16 "even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, "

This is how it is the work of God that we believe. We cannot believe if we never hear the gospel or never know of our Lord. We hear it because God gave us ears to hear with. We believe because we Hear God message to us. It convicts us and convinces us and even our believing has become the work of God because with out all this how would we know what to believe? We couldn't. God didn't believe for us but we are coverd with and by the faith and righteousness of Christ and it is His faith that saves us. If it was our faith then we would be saving our selves.

It is the righteousness of Christ the Father see's not our's. It is His righteous faith the Father see's. How we all need Jesus. None of us can survive with out HIM
MB

 

I agree with Allan. Christ does not have faith, nor needs it...He's God. The KJV got it wrong when they put "of Christ".
Comparisons...
Gal 2:16
(ALT) having known that a person is not justified [or, declared righteous] by works of [the] Law but by means of faith in Jesus Christ, we also believed in Christ Jesus, so that we shall be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of [the] Law, because no flesh [at] all will be justified by works of [the] Law!
(ASV) yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(BBE) Being conscious that a man does not get righteousness by the works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we had faith in Christ Jesus, so that we might get righteousness by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law will no flesh get righteousness.
(CEV) But we know that God accepts only those who have faith in Jesus Christ. No one can please God by simply obeying the Law. So we put our faith in Christ Jesus, and God accepted us because of our faith.
(EMTV) knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; because no flesh shall be justified by the works of the law.
(ESV) yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
(GNB) Yet we know that a person is put right with God only through faith in Jesus Christ, never by doing what the Law requires. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be put right with God through our faith in Christ, and not by doing what the Law requires. For no one is put right with God by doing what the Law requires.
(GW) Yet, we know that people don't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards, but only by believing in Jesus Christ. So we also believed in Jesus Christ in order to receive God's approval by faith in Christ and not because of our own efforts. People won't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards.
(HCSB) yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
(LITV) knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law). Psa. 123:2
(MKJV) knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.
(MSG) We know very well that we are not set right with God by rule-keeping but only through personal faith in Jesus Christ. How do we know? We tried it--and we had the best system of rules the world has ever seen! Convinced that no human being can please God by self-improvement, we believed in Jesus as the Messiah so that we might be set right before God by trusting in the Messiah, not by trying to be good.
(Murdock) because we know that a man is not made just by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus the Messiah; even we have believed in Jesus the Messiah, in order to be made just by faith in the Messiah, and not by the works of the law: for, by the deeds of the law, no flesh is made just.
(RV) yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, save through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

If we speak of faith coming from God, or from Christ, then in that sense we have all been given the ability to believe -- in the salvific sense, we are enabled by God to exercise faith unto salvation, or to resist and perish. As I said before, though faith is a "gift of God," He has in His Sovereignty made us custodians of that gift, and charged us to do so responsibly. Then, via prevenient grace He enables us to do so.

If we speak of "the faith of Christ" as something Jesus has to do in order for us to be saved, that becomes more problematic. Jesus' work was done on the cross -- "It is finished." In that sense, then, the role Jesus (or should I say the Person of the Holy Spirit) plays is granting us the ability to respond positively to our conviction of sin and His drawing through the work of the Holy Spirit.

In no way does the idea of "the faith of Christ" mean that somehow He must do something for us to be saved -- for He has already DONE it.

Incidentally, I hear something similar to this coming from the Charismatic segments of Christianity quite often. Kenneth Copeland talks about "the faith of Christ" as though it is somehow separate from the "gift of faith" which God grants to all men. Something to consider...

JDale

 

Why are you in Christ Jesus JDale? 1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him that I am in Christ Jesus...

Are you in Christ Jesus because you chose? I am there because He chose.

john.

 

Righteous faith of Christ?? EDITTED by me... sorry... Not even close.

No where in the Gospels does it EVER speak of Christs faith. Jesus spoke of THEIR faith making them whole and healing them NOT His. He worked in the people the miricles of God according to THEIR Faith IN Him.

Just to name a few, for starters.

In the OT it (again) NEVER once speaks of the Redeemers Faith saving them but it DOES speak of those who have faith in His (the Redeemers) atoning work will be cleansed and saved.

Let us back up for a second to you rendering of Gal 2:16.
The Greek allows for the [of] in the faith [of] Jesus to be synonomously and interchangably used with [IN]. The [of] when utilized in the KJV is used when speaking to the object of our faith (or better faith's object), but when speaking of the action of our faith they use the word [in]. Look at it again and you will see I am right.

Please show where scripture states it takes perfect faith to save or even insinuates such...a view.
Scripture says faith the size of a mustard seed (immature, beginning, or imperfect faith) can move mountains. It is the same analogy Jesus uses about the seeds (mustard seeds) cast forth being the least grew to the greatest of all.

Both of these scriptures speak to the salvation of these two by THEIR faith NOT Jesus's. Are you saying THEY had perfect faith outside of Christ.

It is not faith the maintains our salvation. We are saved (past tense) by faith, not we are continuing in salvation as long as faith hold out. We are saved because of the promise of God through the work of Jesus Christ to any who will believe and at THAT moment they are sealed in such a manner as to never be lost again. We continue in the faith (noun) and our faith (verb) grows greater and greater through trials and testing (James 1). Faith is the means through which salvation comes, NOT the reason salvation is maintained.

That is all I will say on this. I know it is your understanding, so go in peace and we will agree that we disagree. :1_grouphug:

 

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


Faith is a gift of God so it must belong to Him otherwise He wouldn't give it as a gift. Once He has given it to us it belongs to us. It is our faith.


john.

 

Yes, there are some who twist that verse and use it out of context quite a bit.
Take it with the whole of the passages and it looses your meaning.

Faith is a gift in the sense that if God had not revealed truth for you to accept or reject you would be without hope.

 

I am in Christ because Christ died to redeem me. I am in Christ because it is the only way to the Father, the only means by which I may enter His Kingdom, the only way to heaven. I am in Christ because, as a human, when convicted by the Holy Spirit of my sin, and drawn by the Holy Spirit to God, I exercised the faith God gave to me as a gift and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation is not of me, nor does my "choice" produce it, but I enter and enjoy only when I respond to the call of God. Any failure to do so is my own -- any blessings and benefits of salvation are HIS. There is nothing in this that either glorifies me, or degrades God's Person and Sovereignty.

JDale

 

An additional point: God has predestined that ALL those who come to CHrist by faith will be His "elect." (cf Romans 9:32)

JDale

 

So you hold that whether or not you believe doesn't matter, You are saved regardless??
Unless you believe you will NOT be saved.

Faith doesn't produce salvation but recieves it.

Any failure to do so is your own (as in choice) but that solitifies the converse as well. Any responce to do is your own (as in choice).

And any condemnation and cursing or blessing and benifits are His.

I agree and have never contended otherwise that there is nothing in this that glorifies me or degrades God's person and Soverienty.

God is Soveriegn and man is resposible - though the two do not appear to meet, they are still doctrinally true and meet in Christ alone.

 

Hi Allan:

I'm not sure what you're getting at with your first statement (in bold above). THe Bible teaches that WE must trust Christ in order to enter HIS salvation. The responsibility is ours, the means and power, HIS. Is that not what I said? Hmmm....

JDale

 

Hello JDale.

You're a teacher are you not, why don't you teach me instead of just saying I'm wrong? Is my faith not a work of God?

All that is missing is knowledge? Faith is the result of being given a new heart and ears and eyes and they are mine through being born again. Flesh gives birth to flesh. Spirit gives birth to spirit. Until that happens men are dead in their sins and cannot help themselves. Jesus started the good work in me (Php 1:6) and He says He will complete it, where am I in there? Nowhere.

And since He redeemed you what part do you think you play in that? He either paid the penalty for your sin or He did not. Since He took your punishment why do you think you must make any choice? He paid your debt you say, then what or who can bring any charge against you?

Look, you either do as God tells you or you do as the sinful nature dictates you do not do what you want to. Gal 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

I think otherwise.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Only those the Father draws will go to Jesus and those will be raised up. Jesus came to find the lost sheep and He is The Good Shepherd. He lost none.
I learnt from John the Baptist's dad said that his son had come to give the sheep the good news about their salvation. It was not their possible salvation. LK 1:76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, 77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins



john.

 

Scripture says that one day God found no one righteous and the next He finds Noah. How does anyone get "righteous," allan? They are given faith -- the righteousness of God. This goes to the basic facts of salvation, does it not?

More correctly "By faith Noah, being warned... built the ark. God warned - Noah moved [I would say "believed"] - Noah built. I'm OK with building the ark by faith but something came between no one worth saving and Noah & Co. worth saving. Also something came between God speaking to Noah and Noah building the ark. That is, Noah did NOT have faith based on stories circulating at the time. He believed because he had an encounter with God, right?

skypair

 

No, allan -- Noah wasn't dead yet. Why, during the "first sweep" when God repented that He had created man, did He not say "all except Noah?" Cause Noah wasn't "saved" yet, right?

[quote[You made absolutely no sense. But on the slim chance I understood you..
First - show me one scripture that makes the remotest claim that God turns our belief INTO Faith.[/quote] You just did so yourself.

Scripture says believe and you will (future) be saved. But it also says that you are (present or past tense, it is done -- not future) saved by grace through faith.

mental assent is certainly part of it. But having only mental assent leads to "belief in vain."

No, your faith is "established" only when I cut taxes! :laugh: You got the "warned - moved part of the equation right. I said I would cut taxes - you voted for me. But suppose I didn't cut taxes? You would never have an established faith in me at all!! (re: G. Bush I!) :laugh:

 

JohnP:

You've certainly made your case forcefully. As with most Calvinists, you seem to have taken the position that, since salvation is "all pf God," that axiomatically removes any role of man in any shape, form, or fashion from the equation.

Man is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) you say. And I agree. "Christ, by His right acts makes men free and gives them life" (Romans 5:18) you say. And I, again, agree.

I suppose that which is most problematic in this discussion is the Calvinist tendency (fallacy?) to deny the necessity of faith for salvation.

Oh, I know Calvinists believe faith is there -- AFTER regeneration. But, of course, that presupposes that God neither desires nor requires the assent -- whether intellectual agreement or spiritual surrender -- of a human in order to experience salvation. They are either "predestined" to be saved, and are thereby irresistibly "elect," or God created them with the sole purpose of sending them to the eternal damnation of hell-fire.

Calvinists may certainly "interpret" scripture in this manner. I think, however, that other passages have relevance to this issue. Other scriptures -- many already mentioned here -- but all too often dismissed, explained away or just ignored by Calvinists.

I could remind you that "God so loved the world" (John 3:16) or that "God is not willing that any should perish" (II Peter 3:9), or maybe even that "it is through faith that you are all sons of God in union with Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:26) and "faith in Jesus Christ is the ground on which the promised blessing is given to those who believe" (Galatians 3:22).

There are many others... Maybe though, this simple phrase might clarify my understanding of Scripture -- and the very heart of God.

"Whosoever will."

In the final chapter of revealed scripture, John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, writes, "Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:17). This is a -- THE -- Divine invitation. This invitation echoes across the entire expanse of Holy Writ. Consider for example:

"Whosoever believeth on Him..." (John 3:16); "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). These and countless other passages obviate an invitation -- an invitation which is offered to someone who can accept, or reject it. An invitation that cannot be rejected is not an invitation, but a command, (a "decree" in Calvinist terms). A "command" or "decree" can neither be accepted "freely" nor can it produce "freedom" in that life.

This invitation is offered to "whosoever will," which applies potentially to every human being and indicates the engagement of the will -- the HUMAN WILL. Thus, a choice.

This is a choice we cannot make if left to ourselves. Our fallen nature precludes human ability to choose the right and the good. That is why the Holy Spirit came -- to "convict the world of sin" (John 16:8), and that is why Jesus was "lifted up," to "draw all men" to Himself (John 12:32).

In that conviction, in that drawing, the Holy SPirit works on the heart of everyone to enable them to believe (prevenient grace) -- but not the ensure or guarantee that they will or must believe.

God's offer of salvation to every human is real, and He does everything to enable humans to receive it -- except force them.

If God's offer to "whosoever" does not mean "whosover," and if He does not require the engagement of human "will," what a cruel, cosmic joke to pull on the very creatures God has created.

As certainly as God is sovereign, He is loving. To abandon all but an "elect" few and leave them without hope or opportunity defies God's revealed nature, and the very witness of Scripture itself.

Blessings,

JDale

 

No, allan -- because their wills cannot follow their knowledge. They cannot will to be saved.

My point exactly! So why would we accept that there is no part for us to do (namely "believe") before God gives us faith?

Scripture describing that order -- Webdog gave it for us: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Allan, which one word do you accept over the whole counsel of scripture?