Total Depravity...

[Allan]

THere is some old man who is always used in the liberal Jesus documentaries on history channel and discovery channel who denies the resurrection, etc... Is he saved? Does he know alot of spiritual truth? It is one thing to know some information and another thing to KNOW the Spirit behind the information.

The sinful (unregenerate, lost) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, NOR CAN IT DO SO. (Rom 8:7)
There is no one who understands, NNE WHO SEEKS GOD.

I believe that God is unchanging and that the saints in the OT were saved the same way as they were in the NT and today. By grace through faith.

Acts 13:48 - "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

When were we regenerated? We were made alive with Christ when we were dead in transgressions. (Eph 2:5)

Yes, as I stated according to the very breath of God, we find in Rom and 1 Thes. that unregenerate man can know the truth and reject. (as well as other examples I have already listed).

These all have been somewhat dealt with in previous posts that I have done. Specifically #3 and #16.

God is unchanging, in Charactor. The OT saints were not indwelt with the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God came and went on a limited number and for a specific purpose (in the OT) However, the NT saints DO have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and will never leave us. Just for starters.

We are regenerated at salvation or also know as the new birth (born-again).

However, Let us simply nail down what total depravity is, in accordance with Blammo's OP request.

Total depravity is the fact that due to sin - That man, if left to himself will not seek after God, live as one who is one of Gods followers, nor is able in his own ability to understand the spiritual things of God.

This is seperate from God and His grace given to man where by Man is convicted of sin, righteousness, and judgment to Come. And also where the Word of God is not yet preached man is still without excuse in that nature itself declares God and His glory, and mans conscience. However, this is NOT regeneration but God revealing, calling, and reaching out to man.

 

[Pastor Larry]

IOW, sin nature.

Yes, but "SULIP" doesn't sound very good, does it? ... Seriously, TD is simply the doctrine of the sin nature. Many people deny that it is total however. Most notably, they do not believe that it affects man's will.

If they are not as bad as they could be or equally bad, how is it that any can do good so that they are not as bad/equally bad? Does that suggest the influence of the Spirit? of God? Isn't any and all good from God? Isn't that what the Bible says -- "every good thing comes from above?" Do you believe that a lost person giving money to the widow and orphan does it by influence of God or self?

Remember to "do good" does not mean acts of civil goodness. It means he can do nothign to please God savingly. Unsaved are affected by common grace, which means they can build buildings, give money to poor people, etc. They cannot please God however.

See, I just cannot believe that man is totally uninfluenced by God like your "total depravity" requires, Larry.

First it's not "my" total depravity. It is a historic doctrine supported by Scripture. Second, I don't know what you mean by "totally uninfluenced by God."

The issue truly is, then, what IS that unilateral work?

Calvinists typically call it regeneration or effectual call. Arminians typically call it prevenient grace.

Is it as simple as the witness of creation of must it be as contorted as God forcing one to believe and not letting others even "see" Him?

I don't recognize these two options. Certainly the witness of creation comes to everybody (Rom 1:18ff.). But God doesn't "force one to believe" nor does he refuse to let others "see" him. In Calvinism, they believe willingly because they have a new nature. The reason they can't "see" him has nothign to do with God, but everything to do with their sin (Eph 4:17-19).

 

[Blammo]

After carefully reading and considering every post, I will do my best to define Total Depravity as simply as possible. If I get it wrong, or leave anything out, please feel free to modify or add to it.

Total Depravity:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[johnp.]

That's cool man. Maybe with PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

john.

 

[Andy T.]

Blammo, a couple of other passages to add to your list:

Romans 3:9-18

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[b]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;[c]
“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;[d]
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

Isaiah 64:6 - "...And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags..."

 

[Blammo]

Thank you, johnp and Andy, I believe those verses fit quite well.

Without God we would remain this way. And, since we do not seek after God, He must make the first move. Whatever that move may be, in our totally depraved state, can we be effected by that move without first being changed in some way?

Why would God move on someone knowing the response would be negative?

Why would God not move on someone knowing the response would be positive?

(I may be derailing my own thread here, but I have questions.)

I don't imagine God is watching over mankind at this moment waiting to see how someone will respond to whatever measure of light they have been exposed to. Then deciding what to do next based on the response. God knew He would save me at the very moment it happened. He knew this before the foundation of the world.

Sorry, just brainstorming a bit.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Agreed. There are some (like ReformedBeliever) who hold to regeneration at the point of salvation or just miliseconds before. IOWs it is so miniscule a time as to be almost the same moment.

Hey brother. You didn't bet the farm this time... lol. You are right however... and I would agree with the response of Rippon. Who is the author and finisher of our faith? God almighty gives us faith... that is what I believe. Whether you attribute it to foresight or foreloving us, He elects us to salvation. There are still those born into this world who God knew in eternity past would never receive Him, yet He allowed them to come into existence apparently knowing they would spend an eternity in hell. I want to ask Him why. I suppose it is so that we would know how great a salvation we have .......... and of course for His glory. I still think that He has the right to dispose of His creation as He sees fit. Can't you just see something that you created, for your purposes, arguing with you about what you are going to do with it? Maybe computers will do that someday. Just a thought.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Thank you, johnp and Andy, I believe those verses fit quite well.

Without God we would remain this way. And, since we do not seek after God, He must make the first move. Whatever that move may be, in our totally depraved state, can we be effected by that move without first being changed in some way?

Why would God move on someone knowing the response would be negative?

Why would God not move on someone knowing the response would be positive?

(I may be derailing my own thread here, but I have questions.)

I don't imagine God is watching over mankind at this moment waiting to see how someone will respond to whatever measure of light they have been exposed to. Then deciding what to do next based on the response. God knew He would save me at the very moment it happened. He knew this before the foundation of the world.

Sorry, just brainstorming a bit.

I agree blammo. He is in absolute control or He is not God. He is not the author of sin, and somehow we are responsible for our decisions, which we make in the relative freedom of the circumstances that God puts us in. (His providence)
He somehow directs mankind in a manner that makes Him sovereign (being God) but yet does it in a way that He never violates His own nature. He is big enough to do that.
Somehow I think that we can not fully understand His 0mnipresence and time. We are traveling through time, yet He sees all at once, and is present in time and outside time. His omniscience is another thing that we can not really comprehend.
I suppose that we are going to have to take the Bible for what it says. God is sovereign, completely, and we are responsible. Those two truths seem to oppose each other. (antinomy) They both are true however, or God is a liar. I know He is not a liar because that would be against His nature. He can not go against His nature as that would be self defeating... and then He would not be God.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Thank you, johnp and Andy, I believe those verses fit quite well.

Without God we would remain this way. And, since we do not seek after God, He must make the first move. Whatever that move may be, in our totally depraved state, can we be effected by that move without first being changed in some way?

Why would God move on someone knowing the response would be negative?

Why would God not move on someone knowing the response would be positive?

(I may be derailing my own thread here, but I have questions.)

I don't imagine God is watching over mankind at this moment waiting to see how someone will respond to whatever measure of light they have been exposed to. Then deciding what to do next based on the response. God knew He would save me at the very moment it happened. He knew this before the foundation of the world.

Sorry, just brainstorming a bit.

Sounds like you really are thinking about this, blammo
Keep reading and studying, it's good to hear you work this out.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Why would God move on someone knowing the response would be negative?

If you mean move, as in a saving manner, I don't think an almighty sovereign God would do so without doing exactly what He intended to accomplish.

Why would God not move on someone knowing the response would be positive?

This is my big question blammo. I intend to ask Him someday. Why did you not save them all?
If God is sovereign, and we all know He is.... why does he allow people to come into existence knowing that they will spend an eternity in hell? It does not make sense to me. Forgive me for being so arrogent God. I know that you know what is best.... and i'm certainly glad i'm not the one in control. I just hate knowing that some will be lost. Without your grace, i'm just as guilty as they. Thank you for your justification... and your Son who made it certain.

 

[Blammo]

If you mean move, as in a saving manner, I don't think an almighty sovereign God would do so without doing exactly what He intended to accomplish.

Yes, I mean in a saving manner. I just don't see an omniscient God wasting his time with a person who is only willing to reject Christ. Unless God plans on changing the person's heart to be willing to accept Christ. However, if that be the case, why not cause every person to accept Christ?

This is my big question blammo. I intend to ask Him someday. Why did you not save them all?
If God is sovereign, and we all know He is.... why does he allow people to come into existence knowing that they will spend an eternity in hell? It does not make sense to me. Forgive me for being so arrogent God. I know that you know what is best.... and i'm certainly glad i'm not the one in control. I just hate knowing that some will be lost. Without your grace, i'm just as guilty as they. Thank you for your justification... and your Son who made it certain.

In Acts chapter 8 we see an example of God sending a preacher to someone who is searching for answers and the result is the Ethiopian eunuch get's saved. Is this an example of what we see in Romans chapter 10? And, does this show us that, since He see's the beginning to the end all at once, God does in fact see one responding to some measure of light, sends more, and eventually a preacher?

 

[MB]

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

If man has the dominion as described above then man is in charge of himself since every living thing is included with in his own dominion. Therefore man has the authority over himself and is not predestined to be saved. Scripture never says man is predestined to be saved. We are chosen for Salvation in Christ and not apart from Christ. All men enter the world with out Christ all men are creatures of wrath to begin with. We all sin and there is no particular election to Salvation in scripture. Once any man hears the gospel he can choose Christ as He was chosen by Christ first. Christ died for the whole world and that is our election to Salvation. It doesn't mean we will be saved even against our will's but means we can be saved.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes, I mean in a saving manner. I just don't see an omniscient God wasting his time with a person who is only willing to reject Christ. Unless God plans on changing the person's heart to be willing to accept Christ. However, if that be the case, why not cause every person to accept Christ?



In Acts chapter 8 we see an example of God sending a preacher to someone who is searching for answers and the result is the Ethiopian eunuch get's saved. Is this an example of what we see in Romans chapter 10? And, does this show us that, since He see's the beginning to the end all at once, God does in fact see one responding to some measure of light, sends more, and eventually a preacher?

But was the Ethiopian eunuch one of God's elect in the first place? All those whom God has given to His Son will hear the Gospel. They will be saved. John 6:37.
In Chapter 10 it is also mentioned that part about what Isaiah said. 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?''
17. So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
When we look at John the first chapter we see that those who are born again are born not of man's will or the will of the flesh but God. John 1:13
I still only see God's election of man, based upon His sovereign will, and not that of man's exercise of their will.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

If man has the dominion as described above then man is in charge of himself since every living thing is included with in his own dominion. Therefore man has the authority over himself and is not predestined to be saved. Scripture never says man is predestined to be saved. We are chosen for Salvation in Christ and not apart from Christ. All men enter the world with out Christ all men are creatures of wrath to begin with. We all sin and there is no particular election to Salvation in scripture. Once any man hears the gospel he can choose Christ as He was chosen by Christ first. Christ died for the whole world and that is our election to Salvation. It doesn't mean we will be saved even against our will's but means we can be saved.

MB, I can just as easily say that man has no free will and that we are slaves to our own nature........ and back it up with waaayyyyy more scripture that you have given here. The scripture you have given does not prove a thing about man having the ability to seek God. As a matter of fact, when you look at Romans 3, you see that it says that none, no not one, are good, none seek God. 10. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11. there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
To hold to your understanding of theology, MB, you would have to say that this scripture directly contradicts your theology. God is not the author of confusion MB.

 

[Blammo]

But was the Ethiopian eunuch one of God's elect in the first place? All those whom God has given to His Son will hear the Gospel. They will be saved. John 6:37.
In Chapter 10 it is also mentioned that part about what Isaiah said. 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?''
17. So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
When we look at John the first chapter we see that those who are born again are born not of man's will or the will of the flesh but God. John 1:13
I still only see God's election of man, based upon His sovereign will, and not that of man's exercise of their will.

That's good stuff, RB.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Who does the Father give to Christ, and why? Do we see an answer in John 6:44-45?

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Every man that hath heard, and learned of the Father, come to Jesus.

I don't see predestination or election in these verses. I see men given knowledge, and their coming to Christ depending on what they do with that knowledge.

 

[npetreley]

That's good stuff, RB.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Who does the Father give to Christ, and why? Do we see an answer in John 6:44-45?

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Every man that hath heard, and learned of the Father, come to Jesus.

I don't see predestination or election in these verses. I see men given knowledge, and their coming to Christ depending on what they do with that knowledge.

I don't see any "depending" or uncertainty in the passage at all. Every man therefore that hat heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Where's the part about depending on what they do with that knowledge?

 

[johnp.]

Blammo.

And, does this show us that, since He see's the beginning to the end all at once, God does in fact see one responding to some measure of light, sends more, and eventually a preacher?

Your concentration is on what God's response will be to an act of man, I see that man does what God determines, if a man is responding to scripture then God has brought the man to that point.
God knows the end from the beginning (Is 46:10.) because His plan is being worked out in conformity with the purpose of His will. EPH 1:11.

The Ethiopian eunuch was given what he needed for God's plan to be fulfilled. Everything that happens happens because it is part of God's plan. Nothing happens that is not part of that plan.

I don't really understand your questions but this is not the way I see God working. We have His full attention at all times. Whatever light a man has has been given to him for a purpose. so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11.

john.

 

[Blammo]

I don't see any "depending" or uncertainty in the passage at all. Every man therefore that hat heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Where's the part about depending on what they do with that knowledge?

I am speaking of the fact that the verse says "... hath heard, and hath learned..."

You are focused on the "Every man" and "cometh unto me", leaving out the words between, and making it seem as though there is no condition. Do you see anything in the verses saying every man hears, learns, and comes? I don't. It says every man who hath heard and learned will come.

 

[npetreley]

Here's a part of the Ethiopian conversion story not to be missed:

26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning.

It was no accident that the Gospel was revealed to the Ethiopian. This is a decent (not great but decent) example of what Spurgeon said regarding the elect and the Gospel.

"But suppose [one of the elect] should be one of those who are living in the interior of Africa, and he does not hear the gospel; what then?" He shall hear the gospel; either he shall come to the gospel, or the gospel shall go to him. Even if no minister should go to such a chosen one, he would have the gospel specially revealed to him rather than that the promise of the Almighty God should be broken.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo.




Your concentration is on what God's response will be to an act of man, I see that man does what God determines, if a man is responding to scripture then God has brought the man to that point.
God knows the end from the beginning (Is 46:10.) because His plan is being worked out in conformity with the purpose of His will. EPH 1:11.

The Ethiopian eunuch was given what he needed for God's plan to be fulfilled. Everything that happens happens because it is part of God's plan. Nothing happens that is not part of that plan.

I don't really understand your questions but this is not the way I see God working. We have His full attention at all times. Whatever light a man has has been given to him for a purpose. so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11.

john.

John,

Your position is consistent, and I applaud you for that. I don't see how a Calvinist can believe anything that happens is not completely from the mind of God. Calvinists, more than anyone else, ought to believe that nothing ever caught God by surprise at any point in eternity.