Total Depravity...

[Blammo]

Neither have I. But that's not what I said. What I said was a quotation of Romans 8:7-8

because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

In Romans 8, the contrast between "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit" is a contrast between saved and unsaved. The unsaved (in the flesh) cannot please God, are unable to do so. That must, of necessity include faith since the Bible tells us that faith is pleasing to God.

In the flesh it is impossible to please God. However, at the very moment that you have faith in Christ, you are no longer in the flesh. Again, nothing in the Scripture that says it is impossible to have faith. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I agree, I think. Perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. The moment of having faith is the moment that we begin pleasing God. Until then we are not pleasing to God.

Faith is the first thing about us that is pleasing to God.

I think you are confusing things here. When a Calvinist says that unregenerate man cannot hear or respond, they are referring to understanding the saving message and responding to it in faith. They are not referring to understanding the words, sentences, and propositions. Nor are they referring to understanding what may be a special revelation from God such as Pharoah received. But Pharoah did not understand the message of salvation by grace.

Notice I said "Some Calvinists". Some most certainly have argued that unsaved man's spirit is dead and therefore unable to hear or respond to anything. I have been told to go to the morgue and try having a conversation with a dead person. What do you think they mean by that?

It is clear that unsaved man can understand the propositions, so long as they are in his language. However, to fully understand them is to accept them. I think it impossible to fully understand the message of Christ with all its implications about the glory of Christ, the horror sin, etc,and turn away from it. If one can turn away, I wonder if it is not because he does not really understand.

I absolutely agree with you here.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hello Blammo.

In the flesh it is impossible to please God. However, at the very moment that you have faith in Christ, you are no longer in the flesh. Again, nothing in the Scripture that says it is impossible to have faith. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God.
This is how faith comes ........ by the Spirit speaking the word of God. It is not simply by man or by reading that we come to a head knowledge. Here is it meant as in the new birth. Being born again by the Spirit. The Spirit speaks the word of God to an unregenerate man and he hears... with a heart knowledge.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What that text does not say, though, is the one in the flesh cannot choose to be in the Spirit by setting their mind on Christ based on Truth being revealed, or who even does the "setting" for that matter.

Wouldn't that be pleasing to God if someone did that? I think it would. And since one in the flesh "cannot please God" then I don't think he could do that.

Only if you think that setting one's mind on Christ is displeasing to God would your idea seem to be able to stand.

Does God set our minds on the flesh?

Nope.

The mind set on the flesh cannot please God, is hostile towards God, and cannot subject itself to God's law. It does not say anything about being unable to exercise faith based on the Truth we have been given.

But again, wouldn't exercising faith be pleasing to God? And therefore impossible based on the passage?

Where does Scripture tell us that?

Exod 4 tells us his heart would be hardened. Rom 9 makes the same point. And furthermore, he did not respond. If he truly understood, how could he turn away? I don't think he could.

 

[Blammo]

Hello Blammo.



Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God.
This is how faith comes ........ by the Spirit speaking the word of God. It is not simply by man or by reading that we come to a head knowledge. Here is it meant as in the new birth. Being born again by the Spirit. The Spirit speaks the word of God to an unregenerate man and he hears... with a heart knowledge.

I agree that the word of God spoken or read without the Spirit would be dead. However, doesn't Scripture tell us that the word of God is quick and powerful? Can the word of God be spoken or read without the Spirit being at work? Whether bringing about faith or condemnation? Jesus said His words were spirit and life? (John 6:63)

Why would Paul write...?

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I agree that the word of God spoken or read without the Spirit would be dead. However, doesn't Scripture tell us that the word of God is quick and powerful? Can the word of God be spoken or read without the Spirit being at work? Whether bringing about faith or condemnation? Jesus said His words were spirit and life? (John 6:63)

Why would Paul write...?

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Yes, the quick is to be made alive by the power of God through the Spirit. The word of God can be read or heard by unregenerate man, without seeing or hearing in a saving way. (head knowledge)
Of course I believe that one who hears the Gospel in a non saving way is even more guilty. How guilty does one have to be in order to be condemned? Just one sin.
When Jesus said His words are Spirit and life, that is in reference to the regenerating power of His Words through the Spirit which bring spiritual life. (regeneration)
Paul is simply saying that whether someone is sincere or not about Christ, the preaching of Christ still is used to bring people to faith. The Spirit can still use it to regenerate people. That happens today. How many preachers have you heard of that lead many to Christ, only for those same preachers to fall away later. They never were regenerate. I know of one personally. I hope his falling away is only temporary, but at any rate, God used his preaching to bring many elect to faith.

 

[Allan]

It is clear that unsaved man can understand the propositions, so long as they are in his language. However, to fully understand them is to accept them. I think it impossible to fully understand the message of Christ with all its implications about the glory of Christ, the horror sin, etc,and turn away from it. If one can turn away, I wonder if it is not because he does not really understand.

I agree with much of what is said and some points of contention still remain:
However it was in this portion I wanted to address. There are many lost in their sins that don't understand the fulness of what is coming but what they did know, they rejected. And, according to scirpture there are many who know the truths of scripture...from Gods glory all the way to His righteous judgment against all who disbeleive...and still will deny him, therefore remaining in their unbelief because they LOVE their unrighteousness. I go back to these particular verses because they discribe just that:

Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Unless God show them these spiritual things man does not and can not understand them. That is what scripture says. There is not two forms of understanding of spiritual things in the scriptures. These people understand the salvation message (UNDERSTAND THE MESSAGE) and reject it. Look also at 1 Thes.

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [/U
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

If ANY man understands ANY spiritual thing like God's glory, sin, righeousness and unrighteousness, judgment to come, salvation, or any biblical truth...it is because God has given it to them to understand and are responsible for what is revealed to them. IF the natural man can not understand spiritual things then they will not have any inkling of the above. But scripture says they KNOW and reject.

 

[Blammo]

Allan,

I am curious as to why you left out Roman 1:20

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Seems like one of the best verses in Romans 1 to prove man's knowledge of God. What little knowledge that may be, it includes His eternal power and Godhead.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Allan,

I am curious as to why you left out Roman 1:20

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Seems like one of the best verses in Romans 1 to prove man's knowledge of God. What little knowledge that may be, it includes His eternal power and Godhead.

Very good point Blammo. To me it would be that they clearly see that there is a god or higher creature. They just want to make the god one that fits their specifications. Man still wants to be in control of what they think God should be.

 

[reformedbeliever]

This has been a great thread. Hope you all have a blessed ressurection Sunday.

 

[Allan]

Allan,

I am curious as to why you left out Roman 1:20

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Seems like one of the best verses in Romans 1 to prove man's knowledge of God. What little knowledge that may be, it includes His eternal power and Godhead.

Actually I wanted to place from verse 16 on ward but I just choose some of the verses. The context of all of them together speak volumes, especially since it is what Pauls used to establish the writting of Romans. Nothing in the rest of Hebrews is out of context with the first couple of chapters in Romans, therefore they all need to be examined on the whole of his teaching. (and I'm sure everyone will agree with that).

 

[Blammo]

Actually I wanted to place from verse 16 on ward but I just choose some of the verses. The context of all of them together speak volumes, especially since it is what Pauls used to establish the writting of Romans. Nothing in the rest of Hebrews is out of context with the first couple of chapters in Romans, therefore they all need to be examined on the whole of his teaching. (and I'm sure everyone will agree with that).

Thanks, Allan, I agree.

I also agree with the doctrine of Total Depravity so long as it does not include inability. That just does not make sense to me in light of scripture.

Am I wrong?

 

[Allan]

This has been a great thread. Hope you all have a blessed ressurection Sunday.

I completely agree. With as many people as are conversing back and forth this is probably one the most civil threads in a couple of months.

God be praised.

Everyone have a blessed Resurrection Rememberance in which we look forward to ours as well. GLORY!! Now that is something to shout about!
It is all about :jesus:

:godisgood: - Can I get an Amen on that?

 

[Allan]

Thanks, Allan, I agree.

I also agree with the doctrine of Total Depravity so long as it does not include inability. That just does not make sense to me in light of scripture.

Am I wrong?

I speak only on this wise:
As the Lord reveals, Believe it with all your being.
I agree with you however.
But even my understanding on issues have moved one way or another at different times due to the Lords revelation in context and according to content, but on this one I have not seen anything to contradict it personally
.
I say let God be God and I will follow according to all I know.
It IS for Him I live, and Him I will die.
Just as it was for me He lived, and for me He died and rose again.

I better get off here before I start preaching. :laugh:
May God richly bless each of you with His mercy and grace in all things pertaining to life and Holiness.

 

[Blammo]

I speak only on this wise:
As the Lord reveals, Believe it with all your being.
I agree with you however.
But even my understanding on issues have moved one way or another at different times due to the Lords revelation in context and according to content, but on this one I have not seen anything to contradict it personally
.
I say let God be God and I will follow according to all I know.
It IS for Him I live, and His I will die.
Just as it was for me He lived, and for me He died and rose again.

I better get off here before I start preaching. :laugh:
May God richly bless each of you with His mercy and grace in all things pertaining to life and Holiness.

Amen, Allan, I hope you have a blessed Ressurection Sunday.

And you too, RB. I love you guys and thank you for all you contributed to this conversation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There are many lost in their sins that don't understand the fulness of what is coming but what they did know, they rejected. And, according to scirpture there are many who know the truths of scripture...from Gods glory all the way to His righteous judgment against all who disbeleive...and still will deny him, therefore remaining in their unbelief because they LOVE their unrighteousness.

I agree. And the reason they love their unrighteousness is because they do not really understand the glory of God.

...

Unless God show them these spiritual things man does not and can not understand them. That is what scripture says. There is not two forms of understanding of spiritual things in the scriptures. These people understand the salvation message (UNDERSTAND THE MESSAGE) and reject it. Look also at 1 Thes. ... If ANY man understands ANY spiritual thing like God's glory, sin, righeousness and unrighteousness, judgment to come, salvation, or any biblical truth...it is because God has given it to them to understand and are responsible for what is revealed to them. IF the natural man can not understand spiritual things then they will not have any inkling of the above. But scripture says they KNOW and reject.

Again, I agree for the most part. But there is a difference in teh kind of understanding. It is not two forms of spiritual understanding. One of them is not spiritual at all.

Seems like one of the best verses in Romans 1 to prove man's knowledge of God. What little knowledge that may be, it includes His eternal power and Godhead.

Excellent. And this why they have no excuse. They know God exists. And they reject him.

The reason I say they do not fully understand is because 2 Cor 4 calls them blind, unable to see the glory of God in teh face of Christ. In other words, they are unable to grasp his full beauty and glory, even though they know he exists.

 

[Allan]

I agree. And the reason they love their unrighteousness is because they do not really understand the glory of God.

... Again, I agree for the most part. But there is a difference in the kind of understanding. It is not two forms of spiritual understanding. One of them is not spiritual at all.

Ok, yet scripture no where says they know but they don't REALLY know or any such phrasing. But scripture does say:

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

And as I was corrected earlier for leaving it out:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Yet is also states:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God...

And they DID know clearly His glory for as scripture stated previously - They knew God:

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like...

They knew God, His glory, His truth, and His judgment but rejected it, THEN scripture states:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to ...

Wherefore - In light of what was stated....
And as if to re-emphasize the point, God again says of their understanding of those spiritual things revealed:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie...

And again scriptures declears WHY they are given over to damnation:

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up ...

And then AGAIN (a third time) showing they, by rejecting the truth revealed to them BY GOD, are the reason they are damned. And if rejection of truth is damnation, then acceptance of the truths revealed is salvation:

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Notice they were not given over BEFORE, but AFTER to a reprobate mind.
They understand spiritual truth JUST LIKE A BELIEVER does. A believer knows God, God truths, Gods glory, and most specifically - Gods judgment upon those who live IN Sin - but a believer is one who RECEIVES these truths. They reject everything they KNOW that their rebellion be complete and total. So God gives them over to that.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Scripture also speaks specifically to the fact that the truth they understand could have saved them if they had not rejected it.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

What I am saying is that scripture does not appear to agree, they did not REALLY understand what they thought they understood.

Excellent. And this why they have no excuse. They know God exists. And they reject him.

Again, that is not what scripture says.
It does not say they know God exists only. It says they know His truth, His glory, His righteousness vs unrighteousness, and His judgment. They, as verse 20 shows, know His eternal power and Godhead. Not just that He exists.

The reason I say they do not fully understand is because 2 Cor 4 calls them blind, unable to see the glory of God in teh face of Christ. In other words, they are unable to grasp his full beauty and glory, even though they know he exists.

Then let us look at 2 Cor 4: 2-6 and the verse you are referencing (which I think is 4):

2Cr 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Notice please the deliniation:
The gospel if hid at all is hid ONLY from the Lost. (vs 2) --- But WHY and how is it hid?
Because Satan has blinded the minds of those which DID NOT Believe the truth.
Due to their rejection and Satans blinding AFTER THE FACT, the gloriouse light of the Gospel will not shine unto them again. I say again because the scripture says they ALREADY did not believe the truths that God revealed to them.

It is self evident the Lost are those who have not believed and God has given them over to their unbelief, and the means to keep them there is removal of His grace and allowing Satan a powerful hold. (or as 2 Thes says, God shall send them a strong delusion to believe the lie - That strong delusion in the works and power of Satan)


EDITTED IN...
All I am showing is that (1) man is in a state of total depravity and not able to do or know anything that is not distorted through his own power or intellect. However - with man it is impossible, but...with God all things are possible.
But (2) when God reveals His truth, He does not do it through a mans normal natural means which distorts and perverts but Himself reveals to the heart of man, and therefore man can not and is not able to see or hear anything but the straight and unabridged truth God gives him.

What is revealed is undistorted and absolute since it is from God and given in spiritual form and power, yet what man does with that truth is mans resposiblity. Depravity is absolute, yes. But God bypasses our depravity that we may see the light of Christ and the Truths of God in an undistorted and unperveted knowledge. Man is naturally UNABLE because the natual man has no choices as there is no new (undefiled) information he can aquire that is contrary to his nature through which he perseves. His nature will always distort it. That is why God must reveal it so they may KNOW as it is given spiritually which bypasses the natural man but also confronts him. Just like Adam and Eve could not sin until Satans deception entered in and gave them choice, so to the natural man can not understand the things of God until by some divine intervention man is revealed truth which he can not aquire for himself. This is that which enables man to choose. For without the knowledge of truth man can not reject or stand in unbelief in anything not even God for he knows not God. But when man KNOWS, Man is responsible and judged according to what he did with the truth revealed to him.

 

[skypair]

Yeah, so? Hath heard. Hath learned. Where's the part about "depends on what they do with what they hath heard and learned"? I don't see it in my Bible. Did I buy another broken Bible?

Rom 1:19-21, John. All have heard but most did not glorify God and thank Him.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You were kidding...right?

Was that not what it said -- "Noah found grace in God's eyes?" Now two things can be derived from that 1) Noah found grace and believed and 2) it is for that reason that he found grace in GOD'S eyes.

One moment God was looking down and saw that EVERYONE was thinking only sin continually and the next His eyes discovered grace present in Noah. How did that grace get there according to Paul? Obviously, something had changed in Noah, not in God. How could He look down and see everone in sin one moment and then Noah not the next??

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

Was that not what it said -- "Noah found grace in God's eyes?" Now two things can be derived from that 1) Noah found grace and believed and 2) it is for that reason that he found grace in GOD'S eyes.

One moment God was looking down and saw that EVERYONE was thinking only sin continually and the next His eyes discovered grace present in Noah. How did that grace get there according to Paul? Obviously, something had changed in Noah, not in God. How could He look down and see everone in sin one moment and then Noah not the next??

skypair

so then you are saying that there are human beings who have walked this earth, will be walking this earth, and are right now walking this earth with enough inherent goodness in them for God to honor them and favor them on account of their inherent goodness, and not because He wants to do so despite their depraved nature, right ?
I suppose God saved you and you feel you are going to heaven not because God in His mercy chose to save you and not because Christ in His love allowed Himself to be offered as sacrifice in your behalf but because something in you caused God to be merciful to you and something inherently in you caused you to turn to God in repentance, and so now you are looking forward to heaven, all because of you and what is in you, is that what it is ?

I say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there is no one good, no one but God, and that statement is true for all eternity, and Noah found grace before God because God chose to be merciful to Noah.

 

[skypair]

Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Yes, skypair, but as I understand Total Depravity as explained in this thread thus far. Man, left to himself, would never seek after God

That is what TD teaches and it is right to the degree that "God contacts us -- not we Him" according to Rom 1 and John 1!

One other issue I see bandied about without much understanding is that God needn't reveal the gospel to every man -- just who He is. From there, man is expected to seek Him to which God promises "those who seek will find," right?

he is entirely corrupted by sin, and any good that he does is not pleasing to God because it is done outside of faith.

You are obviously of those who believe that God won't reward Mother Theresa, right? Nor the one "who gives the least of these a cup of water," right? See, that's bogus. He won't reward them with heaven but He promises to reward such for their compassion.

Maybe what we ought to be looking at, then, is God never sees the "filthy-rag" works of a lost man. HOWEVER, Christ, "with Whom we have to do" (our Judge), will reward them.

So far nobody seems to be telling me that Total Depravity means Total Inablility. (That I would reject) But I believe Total Depravity as explained here, with a few minor exceptions, is something I can accept as Scriptural.

I have notice both sides being very accomodating and honest as well.

Reformbeliever, for instance, has used the word "somehow" to describe the gaps in his own knowledge of doctrine. I believe if he would understand and accept some of our explanation for those "somehow's," we might not be arguing but agreeing!

Pastor Larry seems to be unusaully accomodating as well. TD = "sin nature" does, IMO, get us closer to the truth.

In your example above, Noah was not left to himself. Some will say that God had to change Noah's nature and irresistably cause Noah to obey.

The way I hope I explained it was that God found a "seeking man" in Noah -- one who saw God in creation and believed as much "light" as he was given. Therefore, God warning "seeking" Noah about the flood is the part I designate as warning - convicting - MOVING - receive faith from Heb 11:4. The "moving" part, I see, as God motivated - Noah accomplished whereupon faith was received.

Some may assume Noah would not have obeyed without some change of his nature, but I don't see that in the Bible.

I quite agree.

skypair