Total Depravity...

[skypair]

so then you are saying that there are human beings who have walked this earth, will be walking this earth, and are right now walking this earth with enough inherent goodness in them for God to honor them and favor them on account of their inherent goodness, and not because He wants to do so despite their depraved nature, right ?

No, pinoy -- unless you say that "seeking God" is a good enough reason for God to "honor and favor" them with more revelation of Himself. He has promised to do so, hasn't He? In Noah's case, God warned him of the coming flood against sin -- Noah was convicted -- moved to obeience -- God gave him faith.


skypair

 

[johnp.]

skypair.

Rom 1:19-21, John. All have heard...

If all have heard then scripture is wrong and you are right.

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

...but most did not glorify God and thank Him.

How do you know it was 'most'?

john.

 

[johnp.]

skypair.

...Noah accomplished whereupon faith was received.

HEB 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Shows you how wrong you are. It was with faith that he built the Ark it wasn't faith as payment for building it.

You have been told this before.

john.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Due to their rejection and Satans blinding AFTER THE FACT, the gloriouse light of the Gospel will not shine unto them again. I say again because the scripture says they ALREADY did not believe the truths that God revealed to them.

But the Bible doesn't say this, right? It says nothing about "after the fact" that I am aware of.

Pastor Larry seems to be unusaully accomodating as well.

Just normal. The big difference I see in this thread is the lack of misrepresentation of another's position.

 

[J.D.]

They don't "betray" the claim. They believe in prevenient grace, an enabling grace given to all men. Those who deny TD are more accurately pelagian or semi-pelagian. Most non-cals probably fit more closely into one of those categories.

How can man be universally enabled, yet totally depraved? I'm not buying it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How can man be universally enabled, yet totally depraved? I'm not buying it.

They may get that from Romans 12:3? All arminians believe that God gives each man a measure of faith, and then it is up to the man to accept or reject Christ with that little bit of faith given them.

 

[Helen]

That's silly, Reformed. We ALL have incredible faith all our lives -- that this chair will hold us up, that this food will not poison us, that others will stop for the red light, that the spring will finally come....LOL

It all depends on what a man or woman has faith in. That is the point of the thing. And it matters not how depraved, actively or passively, the person, he or she still has a choice about what to have faith in.

The watershed issue, according to Romans and, it seems, Christ Himself, has to do with what a person does with whatever truth he is presented with at any time in his life. Go for more, or suppress it and prefer the convenient lie?

 

[Allan]

But the Bible doesn't say this, right? It says nothing about "after the fact" that I am aware of.

Actaully, I have shown with numerous scripture, it IS after the fact.
After men reject truth, God gives them over to their lie. - After the fact

2 Cor - Satan blinds them which do not believe, but this must be taken not by itself but with the whole of scripture.

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And the many other I gave like it. Satan has the deception to keep all men blind (if God so chooses). But when God reveals truth (as I stated earlier) that light peirces the darkness, and men must believe or reject it. IF they reject it (as in completely - and only God knows) God will give the a strong delusion to believe the lie - which is after the working of Satan in decievableness that they take pleasure in his unrighteousness.

So, in point of fact - scripture does substantiate "after the fact" or maybe you would prefer "after they rejected".

Just normal. The big difference I see in this thread is the lack of misrepresentation of another's position.

I haven't found you disagreeable, but I do see you (just like anyone else) become miffed with YOU (or US) are misrepresented what we believe. So far I haven't seen anyone misrepresent (per say) another persons belief, because no one is really speaking about another believes but what we individually see scripture saying. That is why I think we have avoided much of the unpleasantness of many of the other threads thus far.

Thank Pastor Larry for you conversations.

 

[johnp.]

And it matters not how depraved, actively or passively, the person, he or she still has a choice about what to have faith in.

Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

How can one be morally corrupt passively Helen? How can emnity ever be passive? How can emnity be overcome?

RO 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

It's God who gives us faith! Well would you believe? That's a good one reformed. And He gives faith in differing measures as He sees fit.

john.

 

[Allan]

How can man be universally enabled, yet totally depraved? I'm not buying it.

Total Depravity - This is the situation of man by himself unaided by God. It is a position in which all that man sees, understands, and does through natural means becomes/is greatly distorted.

God revealing any truth to man is always spiritual and therefore does not come through mans natural faculties with distorts and convolutes. Thereby man is presented with the unaduterated truth of God.

Now, (as I see it) we have two opinions from here.

One is:
Gods truth is not enough by itself to do anything for or to man because man is to depraved. Gods word has no power of itself [even if revealed] by the God Himself.

This has some problems now however (as I see it)
Mans depravity keeps man from seeing anything not distorted in sin as he aquires it via natural means thereby never being able to respond any other way than according to what man knows as the basis for his decisions. In other words, man does according to his nature through which man recieves all understanding.
BUT... When God bypasses mans nature to reveal spiritual truth that man can not obtain ON HIS OWN (due to his sin nature distorting it) Man sin nature is now confronted by something that is totally contrary to it. Man is now faced in his understanding with two opposing positions to which man must yeild to one or the other.

Man's inability centers around the fact that man can not OBTAIN THIS KNOWLEDGE/UNDERSTANDING FOR HIMSELF. His depravity would shred it. But when it is presented by God dirctly to the heart of man bypassing man depraved nature as He brings it straight to mans heart, man has for the first time in his life a choice. Where as in mans nature it bent all knowledge and understanding to it own sinful bent. In other words - man only does according to his nature because that is all that comes THROUGH his nature is those sinful and or distorted truths. We know that man if fully capable of choicing that which comes by/through his nature and therefore evev the Calvinists agree they choose to do sinfully. But if you bypass that and bring truth directly to the heart of man, , man has what he never had before.. an option.

The other:
2. Though man is depraved, God reveals truth to man and in so doing makes man responsible for that which God has revealed by accepting or rejecting it.

Man will not choose and understand anything spiritual through his natural processes for they must be spiritually discerned. That is why God must breath them into the heart of man and via the Holy Spirit reveal its truth to man, Because man of himself can not grasp them. But in understanding (as Rom 1 and 2 Thes) this does not mean man will respond positivily because of what he knows, but that man is responsible for the truth revealed to accept or reject it. And that by accepting or rejecting it will determine our salvation.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Hope it helps at least give a better understanding of my position.
I believe man is totally depraved and unable UNTIL God intervenes and reveals to man the truth he would have never known other wise (concerning salvation)

 

[Allan]

They may get that from Romans 12:3? All arminians believe that God gives each man a measure of faith, and then it is up to the man to accept or reject Christ with that little bit of faith given them.

I would not say all Arminians but more like all Non-Cals.
Though I hold to two points of Classical Arminianism (depravity and resistable grace), that does not make me Arminian, does it?
It that is true, then I am a 2 point Calvinist as well (depravity, and perseverance/persevence of the Saints.

However though it is a verse used, it is not one that I would use explicity. The context concerns the saved there, and is in accordance with not thinking more highly of one self (due to knowledge or position) but remembering soberly that which they have is indowed by God and not obtained by themselves.

 

[Helen]

Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

How can one be morally corrupt passively Helen? How can emnity ever be passive? How can emnity be overcome?

RO 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

It's God who gives us faith! Well would you believe? That's a good one reformed. And He gives faith in differing measures as He sees fit.

john.

John, first of all, depravity can be active, as in murder, or passive, as in an attitude. I was not referring to man's condition apart from God, but rather in how that condition is expressed. Please understand the difference.

As far as faith itself is concerned, please note that in the passage in Romans you quoted that Paul is addressing fellow believers and yes, we have different levels, or measures, of faith. As we mature spiritually, that is met with greater measures of faith, for greater faith is part of spiritual maturity.

However the faith to simply believe in the first place is a different matter. It is the 'mustard seed' which can grow mightily. Most people have faith in themselves, or in education, or money for salvation. They certainly have faith, and some of them have marvelous amounts of it! But it is faith placed on the wrong object, however much faith they have. And we often see the disillusionment and bitterness that comes when they realize that.

So, again, it is a matter of what people will do with the truth that is shown them in their lives. If they want it, and pursue it, it will lead them to God. No one has said they know how to please God before regeneration, or that they are not hostile to God. But if they want the truth, that will start them on the right track, for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and Jesus IS the Truth. So while they may not know what it is they want in finality, the fact that they want the truth is enough to start -- they are not preferring the lie.

Then, as they find where the truth leads, where will they put their faith? They must either submit totally to Christ as THE Truth, or turn away and prefer the lie. They will put their faith in one or the other.

Every man has that choice -- first "what will you do with the truth?" and, eventually, "What will you do about Jesus?"

It is a freedom of choice God has even every adult, sentient human being who has ever lived.

 

[Amy.G]

Very well said, Helen.

 

[skypair]

Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

How can one be morally corrupt passively Helen? How can emnity ever be passive? How can emnity be overcome?

Ha, ha! :laugh: I would guess the same way one can be saved "passively" -- monergistically. I think what Helen is trying to say is that you believe God saves monergistically and damns or causes enmity monergistically, right Helen? :wavey:

Doing nothing maintains the enmity, john, on account of not turning from sin nature. It is like "sins of ommission" that quench the Spirit -- if some action is not taken, the Spirit is stifled (whereas when the Spirit is "grieved," some act is done that makes the Spirit sad).

This, BTW, is how the heart is hardened -- by quenching and grieving the Spirit until one no longer hears Him. This is precisely what Paul talks about in Rom 1:19-21 where they did not glorify and thank God so "their foolish hearts were darkened."

skypair

skypair

 

[skypair]

Man sin nature is now confronted by something that is totally contrary to it. Man is now faced in his understanding with two opposing positions to which man must yeild to one or the other.

To me, this represents the end of innocence where the person realizes there is something at work in this world besides nature and sin nature/TD especially.

And you are right -- it is revealed to man spiritually.

I was thinking the other night about the story of Melchizedek -- apparently a man and type of Christ who must have come to the knowledge of God by degrees of revelation of the Spirit, don't you think? Because whereas we all agree he was a Christophany, both the story is Gen and Heb tell of a man who actually lived though having no stated origin or fate.

I believe this "follows" along the vein of Noah who was warned - believed - moved - received faith from God (the Spirit) directly and not from any gospel, right?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Very well said, Helen.

Ditto for me! :thumbs:

skypair

 

[johnp.]

It is a freedom of choice God has even every adult, sentient human being who has ever lived.

That is simply not true Helen. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:5.
RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

I believe this "follows" along the vein of Noah who was warned - believed - moved - received faith from God (the Spirit) directly and not from any gospel, right?

Wrong skypair and well you know it. HEB 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Shame to think that Noah received faith and not from any gospel? Noah preached the gospel. Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

john.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Actaully, I have shown with numerous scripture, it IS after the fact.
After men reject truth, God gives them over to their lie. - After the fact

I guessed I missed these Scriptures along the way. I have never seen them.

2 Cor - Satan blinds them which do not believe, but this must be taken not by itself but with the whole of scripture.

We agree on that.

But I think you are confusing a couple of things. There is definitely a hardengng that takes places (2 Thess 2 and other places) but that does not presume that they were not blind previously. When Scripture is taken as a whole (as you say we should), then it seems we must conclude that sin is blinding and since all aer sinners, all are blinded.

 

[Allan]

I was thinking the other night about the story of Melchizedek -- apparently a man and type of Christ who must have come to the knowledge of God by degrees of revelation of the Spirit, don't you think? Because whereas we all agree he was a Christophany, both the story is Gen and Heb tell of a man who actually lived though having no stated origin or fate.

Ummm... If Adam told his children about God and that which is pleasing to God, and their children told their children about the same things. Then we understand where the knowledge came from. God still was the one to reveal it however and always will be. Since man at that time DEPENDED (and for a long time afterward) on accurate verbal recitation, they were not as careless and haphazard as we are today. (remember the whole - whisper a story into a persons ear let it go around the room and see what you get) We try to redener our personal perspective about what we heard and then merge them as we tell it to another IN OUR OWN WORDS, instead of reciting exactly what we recieved verbatum. This is important in understanding much of what and how the Word was given and received before Moses.

Another point:
Melchizedek could not be a man, AND a Christophany.
Just a hint, look up Christophany. :laugh:

However, Melchizidec in Hebrews speaks to him having no father, mother, birth, nor death and some take this to mean it was Christ. But that is impossible since he is after the likeness of the Son of God.

I believe this "follows" along the vein of Noah who was warned - believed - moved - received faith from God (the Spirit) directly and not from any gospel, right?

skypair

Not in my book. Belief and faith are the same things biblically. Though one is a noun and the other a verb OF THE SAME MEANING.

When Noah believed what God told him, it was by Faith Noah accepted it (not having seen the coming punishment yet but trusted only) and was moved to build the Ark because of his faith already.

in Hebrews 11:1 the word faith (in verse...now 'faith IS)
Faith - in the Greek is - "pistis".
pistis - to win by argument or Moral Conviction
Moral conviction - is the act of proving your acknowledgment of a fact or statement is true.

Faith is not something illusive or mystical. Faith (verb) is the act or action of one who does according to the truth in which he has believed (noun), thus proving it is truth.

 

[reformedbeliever]

That's silly, Reformed. We ALL have incredible faith all our lives -- that this chair will hold us up, that this food will not poison us, that others will stop for the red light, that the spring will finally come....LOL

It all depends on what a man or woman has faith in. That is the point of the thing. And it matters not how depraved, actively or passively, the person, he or she still has a choice about what to have faith in.

The watershed issue, according to Romans and, it seems, Christ Himself, has to do with what a person does with whatever truth he is presented with at any time in his life. Go for more, or suppress it and prefer the convenient lie?

Well this was a good thread. Now some have resorted to calling people silly. That is too bad. It would be much better to use scripture to argue your point than to resort to calling people names.
I thought we were talking about depravity and saving faith. Yes many have faith in the wrong things. I believe all of us have faith in the wrong things until the Holy Spirit gives us saving faith. That is what I said all along.
Rather than getting into it with my supposed brothers and sisters in Christ, I think i'll go back to simply reading the posts and not replying. It is much easier to have the unity that our Lord prayed for in John 17.