Total Spiritual Inability

[zrs6v4]

I disagree with your analogy of this chapter, especially the part I bolded. Jesus was always very clear that it was a person's responsibility to hear God and believe.

Can you explain where I misinterpreted John 6?

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
Read the parables of Jesus. Many times his disciples did not understand the parables any better than any other person. But there was one MAJOR difference, the disciples DESIRED to know what Jesus meant, and they would follow after him and ask him to explain the parables.
Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.Many times the disciples did not understand Jesus's parables. The difference is that they wanted to know and asked Jesus to explain them to them.

I dont disagree with any of these verses you quoted and I would underline Mathew 13:11, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."

You are correct that people must "want it" must be "humble" and must have a receptive heart and in some wild way we can say they are doing it or coming to themselves as the parable of the prodigal son says. Yet why are they coming to themselve and believing in Christ? Could it be that the Spirit is drawing them in as John 6 says? Could that be the missing link to why some totally miss the point and remain in sin and others have such pure thoughts and new motives to desire Christ? I say yes, it is the Spirit who makes a man willing, think straight, be receptive, have new desires, and so on.

Furthermore, you are right that the disciples had private teaching sessions and were wanting to know more. Most of the time they missed the teachings of Jesus it seems but they had something that could not be taken away, that is, they trusted Christ. I believe that was the Spirit who was keeping them and leading them to believe and stick with Christ even when nothing made sense to them.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Ask. Seek, Knock

If you don't know, it is your own fault.

I believe this passage to be true just the same way you do. I believe those who ask, seek, and continue knocking will be given more and more from God.
Where we differ is that I don't think people who dont have the Holy Spirit at least working in their lives are going to live lives of asking, seeking, and knocking.

All of this random verse quoting is helping us understand John 6 though, it is just causing us to go in circles.

 

[zrs6v4]

If God desired for all to be saved, He would have provided a means for all to be saved.
If He only provided a means for the elect to be saved, then He only desires that they be saved.

I think there is mystery to why God only saves a few but loves all and longs for all to believe. I prefer to call this a paradox

Other paradoxes in Scripture would be the Trinity and the problem of evil.

I love logic and intellect and philosophers are very intriguing. I think there are some things in Scripture that appear illogical, its just that our minds can't fully understand them or why God does things that "appear contradictory".

We must use our God given brains, but when we run into mysteries and can't fully grasp them, it is wise to not call them contradiction so fast.

One of the primary struggles that unbelievers have with truth today is that they can't intellectually reason out the problem of evil. An omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, good, loving God who allows evil. In their minds that is contradiction, therefore they dont believe. We know its paradox and though we have no precise answer we still know God is true.

Take your logic that leads you from Calvinism and apply it to the Trinity and problem of evil and you dont believe in a Triune God anymore. This is why I think it is better not to let philosophy guide our Scriptural interpretation.

Philosophy has its place but our leading arguments should not be philosophical, but rather biblical and personal.

 

[Cypress]

I think there is mystery to why God only saves a few but loves all and longs for all to believe. I prefer to call this a paradox

Other paradoxes in Scripture would be the Trinity and the problem of evil.

I love logic and intellect and philosophers are very intriguing. I think there are some things in Scripture that appear illogical, its just that our minds can't fully understand them or why God does things that "appear contradictory".

We must use our God given brains, but when we run into mysteries and can't fully grasp them, it is wise to not call them contradiction so fast.

One of the primary struggles that unbelievers have with truth today is that they can't intellectually reason out the problem of evil. An omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, good, loving God who allows evil. In their minds that is contradiction, therefore they dont believe. We know its paradox and though we have no precise answer we still know God is true.

Take your logic that leads you from Calvinism and apply it to the Trinity and problem of evil and you dont believe in a Triune God anymore. This is why I think it is better not to let philosophy guide our Scriptural interpretation.

Philosophy has its place but our leading arguments should not be philosophical, but rather biblical and personal.

No paradox for me. God desires for all and has provided a way for all to be saved. Men can choose the way or not.

 

[Winman]

Can you explain where I misinterpreted John 6?

Here is that part you wrote I disagreed with;

V63-65 (This is a big recap point, pay attention Van) Jesus points to the fact that their unbelief is a black hole they are in. He shows His reliance on the Spirit to give them life. This is a deeper explanation of verses 36-39 and 44-45. Its not ultimately in their hearts to get internal understanding but rather the Spirit through the words of Christ. V64 jesus says some do not believe. Why? Because they chose not to? Well in a sense they are choosing not to, but that is not how jesus sees it. He sees their unbelief as a result of God not giving them internal help but leaving them to themselves when they hear Jesus. V65 therefore jesus says this is why I told you that you cant come to me unless granted by the Father.

You seem to blame God here, you write as though God does not want men to believe his words.

Now, you have a point, as I showed from scripture before, if men do not believe the little God tells them, then he will take away even that which was first given them. But this is the man's fault, not God's.

God will not strive with men forever. God wills all men to come to the knowledge of truth and to repentance, but if men rebel and refuse to listen, at some point God will give them over to believe a lie. It is not that God desires them to believe a lie, it is simply that it is their proper and just judgment to be given over. The fault is ALWAYS with man, never with God.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

 

[Winman]

No paradox for me. God desires for all and has provided a way for all to be saved. Men can choose the way or not.

Agreed, no mystery whatsoever. Calvinism claims anything that contradicts their doctrine is mystery. This way they can ignore it.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Winman posted...

No paradox for me. God desires for all and has provided a way for all to be saved. Men can choose the way or not.

Thats the gosple of Jesus Christ.

Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and you will find rest....

The call is to ALL, not some some certain lucky ones.

The scriptures are overflowing with evidence that the call is to all. Simply read the Gosple of John and and all the mulitudes of scriptures that support it.

PRAISE THE LORD for such provision!!!

 

[zrs6v4]

Welp, good talk, im tapping out. Have a good christmas

 

[Cypress]

Welp, good talk, im tapping out. Have a good christmas

Same brother!

 

[Van]

John 6:22-71

V22-26 this is the next day after jesus fed thousands. People began looking for him to get more food to eat. Use him for bread: bad motive

Verses 22-25 are non-germane to the topic. Verse 26 says people were seeking Jesus for the wrong reason. However, they were able to seek Jesus, and physically come near to Him to hear His message and see His miracles.

V27 jesus rebuked them for bad motives and told them to seek eternal food in Himself.

Agreed

V28-29. Therefore they asked how to do it, and jesus said to believe in Himself.

Agreed

V30-31 they ask jesus what works He was going to do to prove who He was and gave the example of Moses getting bread from heaven(forgetting that he miraculously fed over 5000 the previous day?)

Agreed

V32-33 at this point think, literally the day before God gave bread from heaven like moses, the exact sign these people seeking with wrong motives are asking for using moses as an example. Kind of odd and blind right? So jesus says (knowing He gave them food) that he is the point, the true bread given from God out of heaven to eat (to trust in faith to eternal life).

No need to engage in conjecture as to what was going on in Christ’s mind, He said the Father and not Moses provided the bread from heaven. This bread from heaven gives life to the world.

V34 they ask always for it not revealinv what they want clearly. Is it bread or jesus?

No they ask for Jesus to give them this bread of life.

Now van pay attention from this point on. Remember what has happened so far.

What has happen so far is people have been seeking the bread of life and have asked Jesus to give it to them.

V35- jesus literally tells them to come to Him and believe into eternal life. A free offer to all who choose to believe.

Jesus informs them that those who “come to Him” shall never hunger, and those who believe in Him shall never thirst. Clearly a person who came to see Him would hunger; they had eaten the loaves. So the meaning of “come to Me” is not just to come physically near Jesus. The idea is come and believe, together. Next, note that Jesus tells them to believe in Me, separately from come to Me, so come to Me does not mean come to Me in faith, or come to have faith in Me, because that would be redundant. So a good possibility is that Jesus is telling them those that come and see and believe in Jesus will never hunger and thirst after righteousness.

V36- BUT jesus says, you have seen me, even miraculously, and dont get it, you still dont believe. Now think Van, what is their problem? Yes its unbelief but there is an issue, they see jesus but dont see Him spiritually. What do they need?

In verse 36, Jesus tells them they came and saw but did not believe, so they had not obtained the righteousness of God.

V37- (this is big) they need the Father to save them from darkness. Jesus says that all the father gives him will come and never be cast out. This is jesus answer to the issue jesus pointed out in the previous verse.

The first word translated come in this verse means to arrive in Jesus, thus rather than addressing people physically coming near to Jesus to see and hear His message, Jesus is telling them that the Father decides who will obtain eternal life. Anyone the Father gives will arrive in Christ, and Christ will not cast him or her out.

That is enough for one post.

 

[Van]

V38-39 jesus has come to do the Fathers will, that is to save those who THE FATHER has GIVEN him to save. Dont forget verse 37 showing that all who are given are saved. Therefore jesus is will is to come to those who are given to him.

Christ’s will is to save whoever the Father gives Him, and not lose any given to Him. The verse does not say Jesus only comes to those given Him, earlier in the passage we saw He is the bread of life to the world.

V40 everyone who believes will get eternal life according to the Fathers will. Stop for a moment Van and rethink all that has happened and how jesus is talking to these bad motived people. Are they getting it? We dont know yet, but he has told them they are not getting it and need the Father to have given them to the Son. Lets go on

No. lets stop, back up and revisit this assertion. The verse says the will of the Father is that everyone who comes, sees, hears and believes in Him will obtain eternal life and be resurrected when Christ returns. Thus those that come and see and hear and believe will be given to Him by the Father. There is nothing said about needing to be given by the Father to believe. The exact opposite is being said, they need to believe in order to be given by the Father.

Here is where we need to look at more than one verse at a time. Lets say "comes to me (arrives in Me) is because the Father gives the person to Christ. Now in verse 44 it says no one can come to me unless drawn by the Father. One view is to equate being drawn with being given. But lets look at the sequence in verse 45. You have to have heard and learned from the Father to come to Jesus. Thus the sequence is clear, those drawn have heard but not necessarily learned from the Father. Those that learned, believed in Him. Those that believed in Him are given by the Father to Christ. Christ will not cast them out, thus they obtain eternal life and will be resurrected on the last day.

 

[Van]

We are saved by grace through faith, thus faith comes before saving irresistible grace.

In John 1:12-13 we have the sequence yet again. As many believe, He gave the right to become children of God. Now lets assume we become children of God physically when we are resurrected. And when do we get the right to be resurrected from our passage? After we are given and arrive in Christ. So we believe, and if God credits our faith as righteousness, He gives us the right to become children of God. Now when we are put in Christ we are regenerated, born anew, by the will of the Father who gave us to Christ. It all fits.

 

[thomas15]

Enjoy your family and the time off from work....be careful AIC....there are much better arminians out there than this guy...he is badly confused.

Every now and then i get to agree with icon. It must be Christmas!

From Miley: "What would be the moral state of the race if left in subjection to the unrestrained or unrelived consequesnces of the Ademic fall? The answer is given in the doctrine of total depravity, a doctrine so uniformly accepted and maintained by orthodox Churches that it may be properly called catholic......On this question Arminianism differs little from Augustinianism, so long as man is viewed simply in his Ademic relaition."

vol 2 pg 243 John Miley Systematic Theology 1893, Hendrickson 1989 edition

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is where we need to look at more than one verse at a time. Lets say "comes to me (arrives in Me) is because the Father gives the person to Christ. Now in verse 44 it says no one can come to me unless drawn by the Father. One view is to equate being drawn with being given. But lets look at the sequence in verse 45. You have to have heard and learned from the Father to come to Jesus. Thus the sequence is clear, those drawn have heard but not necessarily learned from the Father. Those that learned, believed in Him. Those that believed in Him are given by the Father to Christ. Christ will not cast them out, thus they obtain eternal life and will be resurrected on the last day.

This is wresting the scripture to a point of no longer having the scripture before you.

 

[thomas15]

This is wresting the scripture to a point of no longer having the scripture before you.

Cannot put my finger on it but there is something unsettling about this comment.

 

[Winman]

I believe this passage to be true just the same way you do. I believe those who ask, seek, and continue knocking will be given more and more from God.
Where we differ is that I don't think people who dont have the Holy Spirit at least working in their lives are going to live lives of asking, seeking, and knocking.

All of this random verse quoting is helping us understand John 6 though, it is just causing us to go in circles.

Jesus said that a person without the Holy Spirit can ask for the Spirit.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Jesus not only says that unregenerate (evil) men have the ability to do good and to ask for the Holy Spirit, he assures us that the Father will grant this request.

Total Inability is false doctrine.

Now, you cannot ask for what you have not heard of;

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Without the revelation of God's word, all men are unable to seek the true God or ask for the Holy Spirit. In this sense, total inability is true. But once the truth has been revealed to men, they are then able to seek God and ask for the Spirit.

And notice that Paul believed a person did not receive the Spirit until after they first believed. Faith precedes regeneration.

 

[Van]

Truth is unsettling to those who believe in falsehood.

Unbiblical Calvinist order.

1) God chooses foreseen individuals before creation.
2) During their lifetime, He drags them irresistibly into Christ.
3) As He is dragging them, He compels them to willingly come to faith.
4) Since the spiritually dead people cannot come to faith, this action is called regeneration.

Why is this view unbiblical?

1) John 6:44 does not say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus.
2) Mathew 23:13 says men were entering heaven yet were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before being chosen.

The Biblical Order:
1) God chose those who the Redeemer would redeem corporately when He chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world.
2) God reveals His redemption plan to mankind through the work of the Holy Spirit, which is the promise of eternal life for those that seek God and trust in Christ from the heart.
3) If our hearts have not been hardened by the practice of sin or by God for His purpose, we hear and understand the gospel. This is God setting before us the choice of life or death. He begs us to choose life. God draws us with His lovingkindness, but does not compel us.
4) Some reject the gospel, some accept it superficially, some put it into their heart, but do not toss out their worldly treasurers also embedded in their hearts, and some fully trust in Christ alone, selling everything for the treasure found in the field.
5) God who knows what is hidden in our hearts, credits as righteousness the faith of those whose faith is from the heart, who love Jesus more than anything in this world.
6) God gives these to Christ by placing them spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, made alive from being spiritually dead by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,
7) They are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever as a pledge they will not be cast out and will be resurrected on the last day.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Truth is unsettling to those who believe in falsehood.

Unbiblical Calvinist order.

1) God chooses foreseen individuals before creation.
2) During their lifetime, He drags them irresistibly into Christ.
3) As He is dragging them, He compels them to willingly come to faith.
4) Since the spiritually dead people cannot come to faith, this action is called regeneration.

A simplistic perversion of what DoG believe. But I have come to expect no less from those who fail to take the time to investigate thoroughly DoG doctrine. And it is a waste of time to try to reason with those whose minds are thoroughly set against something they do not really understand.

 

[Van]

Note the generalized disparagement, "a simplistic perversion" without actually addressing what was inaccurate. That is because it was accurate. Calvinism is defended by claiming the opponents do not understand the TULIP. Just another fiction piled upon the fictions of the TULI.

So I say again, how did the OT saints come to faith before Christ arose from the dead if only those who follow Christ in the regeneration sit upon the 12 thrones in heaven? Get ready for another time travel evasion where the Biblical sequence is reversed to support Calvinism.

Why is the Calvinist view unbiblical?

1) John 6:44 does not say everyone drawn by the Father comes to Jesus.
2) Mathew 23:13 says men were entering heaven yet were blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
3) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. So our faith comes before being chosen.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Note the generalized disparagement, "a simplistic perversion" without actually addressing what was inaccurate. That is because it was accurate.

Why bother? You have already made up your mind, even if it is wrong. No amount of correction can help that. Many people here have tried to correct you on a your thinking on a variety of subjects but you are convinced that you are right.

 

[Yeshua1]

If God desired for all to be saved, He would have provided a means for all to be saved.
If He only provided a means for the elect to be saved, then He only desires that they be saved.

well, God desired that all would repent and be saved, but he also knew that ONLY the Elect will have the will/means/desire available to actually turn to Christ and be saved!