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Totally Depraved Cornelius

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Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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utilyan said:
You need to understand the context of which the Jew would have understood.
Cause you are stuck on the idea that the one made for dishonor though declared by God to be dishonorable will forever be dishonorable.

Jeremiah 18

1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.”3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.

5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7“At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ 12“But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’


What shows despite what God declares even RELENT calamities he PLANNED.

Why would God PLAN Calamities for a anyone if he knew he would never need them?

Or say" I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it." ?


Its the truth that the BALL is in your COURT already, God already threw it there.
Click to expand...

Of course you miss a key point. In Jeremiah, the potter made a mistake then remade it. In Romans it says the potter SPECIFICALLY made the vessel for destruction as dishonorable.
 
utilyan

utilyan

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davidtaylorjr said:
Of course you miss a key point. In Jeremiah, the potter made a mistake then remade it. In Romans it says the potter SPECIFICALLY made the vessel for destruction as dishonorable.
Click to expand...
So is your reasoning that GOD was trying to say he makes mistakes in Jeremiah? come on now.

Paul is just paraphrasing this along with Isaiah 45.

Isaiah 45
9“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands'

The Jews would immediately recognize THE FULL CONTEXT. Not the plain butchery Calvinist tradition and dogma dictates.

And lets suppose none of those old testament verses existed.

What does the scripture say? Don't tell me what your tradition thinks it teaches, tell me what the scripture says here:

Romans 9

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


WHAT IF, WHAT IF, WHAT IF.

That doesn't mean it is so. What if GOD willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, decided to make a doughnut the size of a mountain?

Had Paul said that, sure enough you'd be looking up in the sky......WHERE IS IT!?
 
P

percho

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kyredneck said:
Born from above = regeneration

Conversion = saved.

Not the same.

Unless you hold to gospel, or means regeneration, you should know this.

IMO, Saul was regenerate from the womb, he was converted on the road to
Damascus.
Click to expand...


Does conversion mean converted from one substance to another?
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
utilyan said:
You need to understand the context of which the Jew would have understood.
Cause you are stuck on the idea that the one made for dishonor though declared by God to be dishonorable will forever be dishonorable.

Jeremiah 18

1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.”3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.

5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7“At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ 12“But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’


What shows despite what God declares even RELENT calamities he PLANNED.

Why would God PLAN Calamities for a anyone if he knew he would never need them?

Or say" I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it." ?


Its the truth that the BALL is in your COURT already, God already threw it there.
Click to expand...
The Jew would have understood that Edom was cursed never to be saved.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
utilyan said:
So is your reasoning that GOD was trying to say he makes mistakes in Jeremiah? come on now.
Click to expand...
Did I say that? No. The part of the verse that talks about the clay spoiling God was not the potter in that verse.

utilyan said:
The Jews would immediately recognize THE FULL CONTEXT. Not the plain butchery Calvinist tradition and dogma dictates.
Click to expand...
The context is ONLY an illustration that we are the clay in the Potter's hands and the potter can do as He wishes.

utilyan said:
What does the scripture say? Don't tell me what your tradition thinks it teaches, tell me what the scripture says here:

Romans 9

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


WHAT IF, WHAT IF, WHAT IF.

That doesn't mean it is so. What if GOD willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, decided to make a doughnut the size of a mountain?

Had Paul said that, sure enough you'd be looking up in the sky......WHERE IS IT!?
Click to expand...

It is a rebuke. It is a rhetorical question following the rebuke of Who are you man to question God? To answer back to God?

The passage means exactly what I have said and you can't do any twisting to get out of it no matter how hard your try. Some people will never be saved because God passes over them. They are vessels prepared for their destruction due to their sin.

I get that you, and others, can't accept that plain truth but that doesn't make it false.
 
utilyan

utilyan

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Site Supporter
davidtaylorjr said:
Did I say that? No. The part of the verse that talks about the clay spoiling God was not the potter in that verse.

The context is ONLY an illustration that we are the clay in the Potter's hands and the potter can do as He wishes.



It is a rebuke. It is a rhetorical question following the rebuke of Who are you man to question God? To answer back to God?

The passage means exactly what I have said and you can't do any twisting to get out of it no matter how hard your try. Some people will never be saved because God passes over them. They are vessels prepared for their destruction due to their sin.

I get that you, and others, can't accept that plain truth but that doesn't make it false.
Click to expand...


"They are vessels prepared for their destruction due to their sin."

Please quote scripture to support your false theory. Nothing states God has to prove himself to anyone and prepared vessels of destruction.

Name one living human being who is a vessel prepared for destruction or cease baseless accusations against mankind.
 
InTheLight

InTheLight

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davidtaylorjr said:
You use it as a pejorative term when you don't have a response to Reformed Theology.
Click to expand...

No, I use it to point out when Calvinists are painted into a theological corner and they have no satisfactory response they often utilize "it's a mystery" as their answer.
 
InTheLight

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
davidtaylorjr said:
Name one corner you can actually paint the Reformed viewpoint into. Just one.
Click to expand...

The most common one is the question of the origin of evil and how it relates to God's decreed will and God's permissive will.

Just search this board for the word "mystery" and my screen name. For the years 2012 through 2016 or thereabouts.
 
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