Totally Depraved Cornelius

[utilyan]

Yes it was bad. Words have different senses in different contexts.




If it means what you say it means you have a major problem with Romans 3:10. You have to look at all of Scripture and not just cherry-pick verses. So yes, bad hermeneutics.

Tell us what it would have to say to mean what we claim.




I love romans 3:10.

AS IT IS WRITTEN Just like how it is written in Psalms 14. or psalms 53


1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,”
They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice;
There is no one who does good.

Like you said lets look at ALL scripture. Or do you mean ALL as in what you ELECT as to furthering your case only?

We can't be too sure with your heavily modified gnostic vocabulary.

You are not following AS IT IS WRITTEN. Your bringing in your own gnostic baggage. Part of the deception is never mention its a quote of psalms.

The Jews did not believe in total depravity. And Paul wasn't establishing a new doctrine, he was merely quoting pslams..


If you drop you man made Calvinist tradition as your highest authority, you would let the scripture speak on its own.


This is the world of the Lord and repeatedly you display no one can read the scripture unless guided by your calvinist tradition.


There no greek calvinists for a good reason. There is no fooling them.

 

[utilyan]

Matthew 18

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4“Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5“And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Imagine if was hairy 40 year old in diapers in his lap. Would it have made a difference at all?

It shows a character open to learning. If I were a consistent Calvinist it would not at all make a difference.


Think about the Law how it reveals sin, the school master.

Galatians 3

. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

How the law leads us in putting faith in God, because it was impossible to keep the law. Whereas you would say faith is also impossible. Making even the law useless. If it just required all on God he wouldn't need the law to help us realize we need him.


Think about the OUR FATHER. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Well if his will is always done on earth why would we be instructed to pray for it?

 

[InTheLight]

Yes it was bad. Words have different senses in different contexts.

If it means what you say it means you have a major problem with Romans 3:10. You have to look at all of Scripture and not just cherry-pick verses. So yes, bad hermeneutics.

No kidding. So why are you cherry-picking one verse from Romans, which is really echoing a passage from Psalms which was written to an entirely different audience.

 

[Reformed1689]

AS IT IS WRITTEN Just like how it is written in Psalms 14. or psalms 53

Actually, it is not an equivalent direct quote. Look at the Septuagint for the Psalms then look at the NT Greek in Romans. Paul actually substituted a different word. He does this several places in Romans. Why do you think it says good in Psalms but Righteous in Romans?

 

[Reformed1689]

No kidding. So why are you cherry-picking one verse from Romans, which is really echoing a passage from Psalms which was written to an entirely different audience.

Not Cherry picked. It is showing you have to harmonize all of Scripture.

 

[Rockson]

You have a problem here. Where in the passage does it say he pleased God?

And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. Acts 10: 30

And from the passage it is pretty obvious God was calling Cornelius.

Shouldn't you really go back now and correct yourself? You asked where does one find he had pleased God. Acts 10:30 reveals that.

 

[Reformed1689]

Shouldn't you really go back now and correct yourself? You asked where does one find he had pleased God. Acts 10:30 reveals that.

No. And that wasn't what I asked. What I asked was where does it show that HE pleased God. Everyone is capable of doing good works but that does not make that person pleasing to God if they are not born again. They are still under the wrath of God.

 

[37818]

• Calling - The preaching of the gospel message.

• Regeneration - The change in the person produced by God.

• Faith - The trust an individual has in the work of God on the cross.

• Repentance - Turning from sin.

• Justification - The imputation of righteousness to the individual bus making him righteous according to the law.

• Sanctification - God's work in the individual to make him more like Christ.

Well,
Sanctification
Calling
Repentance
Faith
Regeneration
Justification

 

[utilyan]

Actually, it is not an equivalent direct quote. Look at the Septuagint for the Psalms then look at the NT Greek in Romans. Paul actually substituted a different word. He does this several places in Romans. Why do you think it says good in Psalms but Righteous in Romans?

Would it matter even if the most accurate wording was in Chinese? I'm pointing out the meaning of the message is what Paul wants echoed here. He's not hijacking the mere script dumping its original meaning and then downloading a Calvinist meaning.

Had Paul been instituting a brand new doctrine via epistle even, the whole church would have to gather as it did in acts 15.


Plainly speaking Paul is conveying a message AS IT IS WRITTEN not as Calvinist Philosophy dictates.

 

[Reformed1689]

Would it matter even if the most accurate wording was in Chinese? I'm pointing out the meaning of the message is what Paul wants echoed here. He's not hijacking the mere script dumping its original meaning and then downloading a Calvinist meaning.

Had Paul been instituting a brand new doctrine via epistle even, the whole church would have to gather as it did in acts 15.


Plainly speaking Paul is conveying a message AS IT IS WRITTEN not as Calvinist Philosophy dictates.

Look, I get it, you can't handle truth. That's fine, but it doesn't change it. Cornelius did not seek God. Cornelius was not pleasing to God. God sought Cornelius and drew him to himself. Nobody is good, nobody is righteous in the eyes of God, not even Cornelius, prior to salvation. You can't escape that. The passage doesn't claim that Cornelius is either.

 

[utilyan]

No. And that wasn't what I asked. What I asked was where does it show that HE pleased God. Everyone is capable of doing good works but that does not make that person pleasing to God if they are not born again. They are still under the wrath of God.

"Everyone is capable of doing good works" You got to be careful shoving that word GOOD in there. That is a whole n'other level of works. Every single good act has God as its source. And if it doesn't we just call it evil.

Every GOOD WORK is a successful act of LOVING GOD and LOVING NEIGHBOR.


Cornelius hit the jackpot.



Proverbs 15

8The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

Suppose he is still wicked Totally Depraved. It would have been a grand offense.

Instead it got upgraded as a memorial.

John 9
. 31“We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.


" God sought Cornelius and drew him to himself."

Show us the verse. It starts with Cornelius already having prayed and given alms. He is not born again at all. He has not heard the scriptures.

The only reason you mention this is to reconcile your Calvinist tradition instead of telling us what scripture says. No one will ever read this and get it right unless you are over their shoulder to read into the text.



Think about this, How come you never heard of some tribesman in Wakanda Who ain't ever heard of Jesus up and spontaneously become a Calvinist?

It never happens no way. Because the RIGID form ordo salutis in Calvinism requires a person to hear the gospel prior to any regeneration (born again).



Cornelius is not BORN AGAIN when he delivers his prayer, He has not heard the gospel, He does not know Jesus Christ. He has not received the holy spirit. He is not regenerated.


Acts 10

4And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

The angel didn't show up and said "God noticed the abomination you offered" The fact that it even ascended is pleasing, the fact that it is a memorial is pleasing.

Proverbs 15
8The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,


He had no prior contact with God yet was εὐσεβὴς DEVOUT. DO you know any totally depraved DEVOUT folks?

Had a Calvinist angel showed up, Whoa buddy what is this abomination you are trying to offer God!?

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

ACTS 10
2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

 

[David Kent]

Yes we have good people. But all our righteousness is like filthy rags to God. God chose Cornelius, and led him to an interest in the Jewish relidgion, and then sent Peter to preach the gospel to Cornelius and his family.
If we are christians we have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, God then draws us to hear the gospel, and sends preahers for us to hear. Ephesians chapter one.

 

[utilyan]

Yes we have good people. But all our righteousness is like filthy rags to God. God chose Cornelius, and led him to an interest in the Jewish relidgion, and then sent Peter to preach the gospel to Cornelius and his family.
If we are christians we have been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, God then draws us to hear the gospel, and sends preahers for us to hear. Ephesians chapter one.

I'm familiar with this.

Well let me show you the key thing always neglected when quoting Ephesians 1.

Throw focus on IN HIM.

Ephesians 1


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love


You read this you bring into the text that you are elect before creation. You assume all the blessings from ephesians 1 and 2 were always yours.


Ephesians 2

6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Remember when you were NOT ELECT? Separate from Christ? Stranger to the covenants and promise, When you had no hope, Without God in the World?

BUT NOW IN CHRIST implies Before you were NOT IN CHRIST.


You got this philosophy that before you existed you got branded with mark of elect. But you were not IN HIM. Formerly were far off. There was no promise or covenant for you, NO HOPE and without GOD.

Now if you were elect prior to all creation you would indeed have hope and have a God.

But this scripture makes it quite clear you were not in Christ.

Your past was not in Christ and neither was you future. It is only because now you were seated with him in heaven that anything in Ephesians 1 pertains to you.


Point being all the blessing in Ephesians 1 and 2 were yours before, because before you were not in Christ. Its because NOW that you are in Christ that it is no longer you but Christ in you, In Christ now you have a new past present and future.

When you were not in Christ, you were not chosen at all. None of the promises or covenants were for you, You didn't even have a God, You had NO HOPE.


I know what you want it to say. That you were always in the promise, that you were always in Christ.

Nope. In fact the promises and covenants were not even yours they belong to someone else.


Romans 11
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,


You are a wild shoot. The reason you got any mercy is the guy who is suppose to be sitting in your chair REJECTED JESUS.

Can you believe someone's disobedience gave you a chance?

Now you are given the chance not to be snobby about it and pour out that mercy God gave to you to those who rejected Jesus. You are now the ambassadors to reconciliation.

Romans 11

31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

 

[1689Dave]

I believe Cornelius and those of whom Peter says “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” (Acts 10:35) Were atoned for by Christ in the limited atonement sense, and thereby born again. That is, they have the Holy Spirit as seen in the fruit they bear. But they miss the Baptism (fullness) of the Holy Spirit that depends on the gospel and repentance according to New Covenant standards.

 

[kyredneck]

...here we pretty much have pagan Cornelius a righteous centurion who pleased and seeks God.

He is unregenerate,

...here we pretty much have a showcase example of the domino effect of bad doctrine in this thread, namely 'gospel, or means regeneration'.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe Cornelius and those of whom Peter says “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” (Acts 10:35) Were atoned for by Christ in the limited atonement sense, and thereby born again. That is, they have the Holy Spirit as seen in the fruit they bear. But they miss the Baptism (fullness) of the Holy Spirit that depends on the gospel and repentance according to New Covenant standards.

Thank you. We're probably 98% in agreement on this.

This is Acts 10 Cornelius:

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

 

[kyredneck]

Cornelius did not seek God. Cornelius was not pleasing to God.

Blows my mind sometimes at the damage done by the blinders of bad doctrine.

Compare:
1 Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. Acts 10

With:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2

34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him. Acts 10

 

[37818]

"The wages of sin is death . . . ." -- Romans 6:23. No amount of good works will make the payment of death. So salvation cannot be earned and has to be a gift. But if the wage of death is not satisfied, then God's holiness is not met.

 

[percho]

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Acts 10:39-43

That is what Peter told Cornelius and his house, then something happened. Cornelius nor anyone did anything nor said anything, YET:
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Acts 10:44

What did they hear? They heard about a man who died and they heard about the same man being made alive from, the death he had died. They heard about a man receiving the promise of God.

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2
They heard about, obedience of faith.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

They received the Holy Spirit, because of, the obedience of faith. Jesus the Son of God was obedient unto death and God the Father was obedient unto his promise.

who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, Eternal salvation. Heb 5:7-9 YLT
and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, (Raised him from death) and gave to him a name that is above every name, Phil 2:7,8

Peter then water baptized them as ones whom God had made believers.

They did nothing.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is typically a Calvinist Stumper. He is not a believer of Jesus Christ. Cornelius doesn't know what is going on, he even worships Peter, Peter corrects him thats great.

Yet this guy SEEKS GOD, is RIGHTEOUS, And GOD is PLEASED by his prayers and alms giving. He gives to the poor..

Jeremiah 31:3. 'Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness [or 'covenant mercies,' 'steadfast love'] I have drawn you.'
The first thing you need to understand is that God loved Cornelius before the foundation of the world and had decreed his salvation in time.
Once you've got that, the rest should slip into place. However, if you need more help, don't hesitate to ask.