Traducianism and the Atonement

Who among the believers received the power of the Holy Spirit that enabled them to perform "miracles"? Most of the records indicate that such was performed by the apostles and not by any other believers. Therefore the Apostles were given "spiritual blessings". Who received the Gifts? The apostles! If you say we all have them, then you'd be mistaken, for there is no evidence to support your claim!

The Apostles, the builders of Jesus church were elected before the foundation of the world to do just that!

The Apostles are the ones that Jesus was addressing when He called them "his brothers" and "Children of God".

The Apostles were, in the face of strong persecution gracious beyond measure.

Granted that ALL have been enabled to have redemption through the Blood of Jesus. Though many refuse it.

To whom did Jesus reveal HIS MYSTERY? To the apostles who ate, drank, and slept with and by Jesus. The Apostles attended Jesus University where Jesus revealed him self to them. They in turn have revealed Jesus to us!

Who is refered to as having ALL things in Christ? The Apostles, then by their effort to build the church, we too have "all things in Christ".

So who has obtained an inheritance? The Apostles first, then all believers.

No, Koreahog, I don't think you are accurate in your assessment!

 

(Multiple replies)
____________________________
To All,

I'm new here, and I'm the Traducianist in question. I hope you don't mind my joining the discussion.
____________________________

Wes,

I second what Koreahog has said. Christ's sacrifice, like all Old Testament sin sacrifices, was substitutionary. It is by far the most prominent aspect of Biblical sacrifice that the sacrifice "victim" dies in place of the sinner, because the wages of sin is death.

Furthurmore, if all sins were paid for by Christ's death, then God cannot judge any man for such deeds. What has been purged by the blood of Christ is gone forever.
____________________________

Ray Berrian,

Not only Shedd, but A.H. Strong and Baird, as well. The immaterial effects of Adam's original sin are passed on through the spirit, not through the body. Sinfulness is not a substance contained in the flesh. The seat of sin is the spirit.
____________________________

Billwald,

As Tertullian said, the fact that death occurs when the body and soul are separated means that life begins when these two are joined. Therefore, the soul is present at conception.

The effects of Adam's sin on us are not defective DNA, but a defective, dead spirit that can only be corrected by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
________________________

Bob Ryan,

How "much" sin did Adam have to sin for the consequences to be passed on to all of mankind? It was not the quantifiable value of Adam's sin which made it effectual to all men, but it was our spiritual union in Adam which made it effectual to all men. In Adam, we all sinned. Adam only needed to sin enough for one man to die, and he had sinned enough for all men to die. One sin required death, and that one death (Of Christ) is enough to pay for all sin. In Adam we sinned. In Christ we are righteous. It is not the quantifiable value of Christ's sacrifice that makes it effectual to all believers, but it is His spirit in us that makes it effectual to all believers. Christ need only suffer and die "enough" for one man and He has suffered and died "enough" for all.

Adam's and Christ's representation of us is like the shell on an egg. The egg within the shell is the spirit that is imparted to all of us. Any representation that is not based on this spiritual union is only a shell of truth.

Ken

 

KenHamrick,

YES and NO!
That is precisely what I'm getting at, Man is not judged because of sin!

Because Jesus' Atonement is for SIN and not for man, God does not judge men for sin, He judges men for faith! JUST LIKE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT because Jesus' atonement is for ALL the sins of the world from the first one of Adam and Eve, to the last sin ever committed.

Yes, our deeds, both Sins and Good Works are to be tested (judged) as if by fire, and those that are good come through the fire in the manner that Gold, silver, and precious stones survive fire. Gold and silver are refined and purified through fire, Precious stones are not affected by it. Sins, are consumed by fire in the manner that wood, hay and stubble are consumed by fire, leaving only worthless ash.

HOWEVER, the one who did the deeds is not put through that same test. The one who did the deeds is judged based on whether his name is found in the Book of Life. If found there in, the person passes from death unto life everlasting; if not found in the Book of life the person is cast into the lake of fire, the second death or the death of spirit!

The lake of fire is where God is going to deal with "Principalities and Powers" and the agents thereof. All who lack faith in God go into the lake of fire regardless of the good works they may have done in this natural life! Good works cannot save you. Likewise, Sins that you do cannot condemn you because Jesus atoned for SIN. However, Paul warns that Knowing that sins do not condemn you does not give you license to go on sinning, because doing so detracts from our own lives, destroys our witness, and causes others to stumble. We are to repent from sinning, and live our lives as righteously as we possibly can, so that others can see that it is possible to do so because we do so! John said in 1 John 1:9 that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and JUST, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness! John was talking to believers who are "already marked for salvation", not sinners! And, Rest assured, "your sins will find you out"!

 

Wes and Friends,

I do not see sacrifice as synonymous with atonement. Lev. 1:4 shows how atonement depends upon the faith of the sinner as the connection between the sacrifice and the sin:

If the sinner did not put his hand on the head of the burnt offering, then no atonement would be made, even if the animal was sacrificed, and even if the priest and sinner both intended for that sacrifice to provide atonement for the sinner. Placing his hand on the head of the burnt offering was an act of faith on the part of the sinner, and directly correlates to the response of faith on the part of the sinner who believes in Christ and is saved. The repentant sinner is figuratively reaching out and touching the Cross, and is healed, just as the woman who touched the hem of His garment, and just like the Hebrews who looked in faith to the serpent on the pole. Without this connection of faith between the sinner and the sacrifice, there is no resultant connection of atonement between the sin and the sacrifice, even though the sacrifice has already been made. Christ died as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, with the purpose of atoning for those who would believe. But His sacrifice alone was not a transaction of atonement for those who did not yet have faith. We are all the children of wrath until the point of repentance and belief. Atonement is not so much a transaction as it is a substitution . There were three parts to OT sacrifice and atonement: 1. The act of faith on the part of the believer ("laying of hands on the head of the sacrifice"); 2. The death of the animal; 3. Acceptance by God as an atonement in behalf of the sinner. The death of Christ provided the sacrifice sufficient for all sin. Upon the act of faith of each particular believer, God then accepts Christ’s death as a particular atonement in that sinner’s behalf.

Where can the particularity of the Atonement of Christ be found? It cannot be found in His suffering, because His suffering was held to be infinite by some, and at least sufficient for all of mankind by the vast remainder. It cannot be found in the value of His sacrifice, since all agree that the value is infinite. His suffering, His death, and the value of those, would have been the same whether the Atonement was particular or general, definite or indefinite. The particularity is solely to be found in the will of God regarding the acceptance and application of the benefits of Christ’s death in behalf of particular persons.

God exists outside of time, so He is not required accept particular payment immediately upon the death of Christ. At the moment of a man's salvation, God can look back to the cross, and accept Christ’s sacrifice as an atonement in behalf of the new believer. It is not the value of the sacrifice that makes the atonement particular, but it is particular because God accepts it as an atonement for the particular sins of particular individuals. God accepts Christ's sacrifice (at the moment of salvation) as particular to any individual who believes. It is true that God knew ahead of time the names of the elect who would believe, and it is commonly asserted that because of this foreknowledge, God must have particularly intended and particularly accepted Christ’s sacrifice as atonement in behalf of His elect at the time of Christ’s death. However, justification is by faith, and not by divine intention alone. God has a "due process" that He has chosen to work through. Christ died as a sacrifice for the totality of all sin, and suffered the wrath of God against all sin. He suffered the penalty, but His death was not immediately accepted in behalf of all. His sacrifice was accepted as a righteous sacrifice, but God does not see it as an atonement in behalf of any particular believer until they actually believe. The particularity of the Atonement is not in the a priori intentions of God, but it is in the acceptance of God. For future believers, it was an indefinite sacrifice that becomes particularly definite as each believer is immersed into Christ through faith. As each one comes to faith (through the grace of God), God then accepts Christ’s sacrifice in that one’s behalf as an atonement, making Christ’s sacrifice particular and definite to that one who now believes.

Substitution must be one-for-one, rather than joint. Joint substitution is the traditional view, but is claimed only on the basis of the infinite value of Christ's death; however, such a view is not true substitution, but is a commercialistic transaction. It is no longer one man dying for another, but instead is the conversion of Christ's death into monetary terms, and dividing up of the "funds". The view of many emphasizes the divine intentions of atonement to the exclusion of the actualization of atonement. The individual salvation event is trivialized by many to the point that it is nothing more than a formality. To them, atonement is God seeing, when looking at the cross, the reflection of the entirety of the sins of the elect, at the time of Christ's death. For them, it is a "done deal", and those sins are all atoned for. But by emphasizing only the divine intentions, they are forced to artifically commercialize and transactionalize the death of Christ, and to neglect altogether the true, one-for-one, substitutionary aspect. The problem is that they try to particularize the benefits of Christ's sacrifice through divine intention alone, and the particularity aspect does not belong on the intentions side of it. There are two sides of the atonement: divine intentions and divine actualization.

On the divine intentions side, God saw, when He looked at the cross (at the time of Christ's death), the reflection of the entirety of human sin, but in a general and indefinite way (not particular sins of particular individuals). It is indefinite because it is a joint representation based on intentions alone. Joint representation and particularity are incompatible because the sin debt of each individual requires the entirety of Christ's sacrifice. To particularize a joint representation would require that the atoning power of Christ's sacrifice be divided up among those He represented, leaving each with only a small portion and not the whole. The whole is needed by every particular individual. This step provides a means of atonement, but it does not actualize atonement. Without actualization, there is no actual atonement.

On the divine actualization side, God sees, when looking at the heart of an individual sinner who comes to him by faith, the reflection of the entirety of the cross. Here is where the particularity aspect belongs. The whole of Christ's sacrifice is applied directly to the particular individual, by (God-given) faith. It is faith alone which actualizes the atonement, thereby making actual atonement. Without faith, there is no atonement.

Ken

 

KenHamrick,
Your example in Leviticus is Personal atonement for sin, and it a frequently performed ritual! It is no different than going to confession, dropping an envelope of money in the till and confessing sins.

Jesus atonement however, is a ONCE FOR ALL atonement for the sins of the world! ALL SINS IN ALL TIMES. Thus eliminating the penalty of sin for mankind! All mankind!

There is nothing in regeneration of the human spirit that prevents that spirit from sinning! That is why John wrote (speaking to Christians) "if we confess our sins, HE (God) is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from All unrighteousness". That couldn't be true if the penalty for sin remained on sin. For that penalty would needs be carried out, and the sinner could not have everlasting life.

Since the penalty for sin is removed from mankind, Revelation 20 stands out because it says that our deeds will be judged. Well both good works that we do, AND SINS are deeds. However the person who does those deeds is not judged in them, but rather whether or not one's name is written in the Book of Life. Those who are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, the second and final death.

So how does one's name get written in the book of life? What do scriptures say about FAITH? It says that we are saved through faith! Faith must be what gets our name written in the book of life. What do scriptures say about who can have faith? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So if you hear the word of God and believe into faith, then you are saved through faith...regardless of your sins!

If you think you can live a sinless life you are only fooling yourself. True the closer you walk with God, the less you are inclined to sin, but you will sin, as a "saved person", the same is if you are "unsaved person".

Thank God for Jesus ONCE FOR ALL atonement for sin. Because of it, we can all have everlasting life through faith in Him!

 

Wes,

This sin offering of the Old Testament was a type and picture of the future sacrifice of Christ. The fact that Christ is called the Lamb of God should leave no doubt that His death cannot be understood apart from the OT sacrifices. Because Christ's sacrifice is superior to the OT type, it is "once and for all (sin)"; however, Scripture always puts the removal of the penalty of sin together with the faith of the sinner. Without faith in Christ, men are still in their sins, and will be judged for them.

Without faith in Christ, the sinner will die in his sins.

The penalty has been removed for those who have faith in Christ, but only those who have faith in Him.

Those who will be thrown into the lake of fire are thrown there because of their sins. They have never believed into Christ, and so their names are not in the book, but this only indicates that they are still in their sins. It is not a sin to not have your name in the book. God is not punishing them because thier names are not in the book. Rather, their names are not in the book because they are still in their sin, and that is the reason that they have been judged and sent to the lake of fire. That is why it says, in 20:12, "And the dead were judged according to their works...".

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin." Believers do sin, but sin for the believer is not the same thing as sin for the unbeliever. Sin for the believer is not a matter of judgment unto condemnation. It is not imputed to his "account. Sin for the believer is a matter of displeasing our Lord and disrupting fellowship with Him.

Ken

 

We are saying much the same thing, however with a slightly different slant.

You insist that the one who has faith is removed from sin, while the one who lacks faith is judged by his sins.

The reality is that even those with faith sin!

I am saying that sin has no weight in Judgment of the person. Our salvation is based entirely on our faith if we have faith, we are not judged (john 3:18), if we lack faith, we are cast into the lake of fire. No one is saved by the value of their deeds, whether they be good works or sins.

Salvation is through faith, and FAITH ALONE.