Trail Life or Boy Scouts

[Don]

As usual, the all-knowing Don (AKD) likes to tell the world what Zaac thinks and the AKD is wrong 100% of the time.

Just more excuses. God said to GO. He didn't say go and get them and bring them back to your lil protected environment .

Yall and these darn programs that you think are a legitimate excuse to disobey because you think the SBC way is better than God's way.

Some in the church seem to have fashioned their own cesspools that they simply can't smell because their noses are so far in the air. The lil cesspool that you think isn't a cesspool is. You just got a bunch of snobbish Christians surrounded by a bunch of other incredibly snobbish Christians telling each other that their sin no longer stinks. Amazingly the non-Christians rarely want of that cesspool because it smells like their cesspool.

So somebody please tell the AKD that we're to be IN their cesspool because that's where they are.

Poor Zaac. Can't actually refute what I wrote, so has to resort to ad hominem.

If he had actually read what I wrote with a modicum of understanding, he'd have realized that I encouraged the feet to go, the hands to serve, the mouth to preach and pray, the arms to hug and comfort, the back and shoulders to bear the burden....

But it's easier to say "MY way is better than yours," rather than actually encourage tolerance and acceptance. Or, as scripture put it so much better than I ever could: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor.

Y'all just keep on keepin' on. If Zaac ends up with more crowns than any of the rest of us on judgment day, I'll shout out some loud hosannas and "Amen's", and then we'll all sit together at His feet.

 

[Don]

A little yeast rises the whole lump, in other words.

Yep; or, alternatively, the clean water's there. It's just overwhelmed and indiscernible from all the sewage, making it harder to find. But to continue the analogy, it doesn't matter; it'll all get processed, and what little clean water is there will be separated, while the larger amount of muck and sewage will be sent to be used as fertilizer or get burned.

 

[Salty]

Okay Z-man

At what point - that is - what would have to happen for your to withdraw your support of the BSA?

 

[Zaac]

Okay Z-man

At what point - that is - what would have to happen for your to withdraw your support of the BSA?

My support is not for the BSA any more than it's for the ACLU.

The BSA just happens to be an organization that God has given the Church a platform in to raise up Godly young men.

But perhaps our penchant for retreat to form our own controlled groups is why we're such easy pickings.

Where is the backbone? Since when did the church become a bunch of skinny jeans wearing pansified weak people who are obviously very quick to defend their favorite tv shows, but who show no fight at all when it comes to defending the ground God has given them as a platform to raise up Godly young men?

The BSA wants to admit open homosexuals to go along with the already closeted homosexuals, then fine. The people of God should have been coming out of the woodworks to increase our presence in the BSA instead of tucking tail and running to start our own groups.

Jesus was always engaging people where they were. He went to them. Why is our answer seemingly always another program and bringing THEM to us?

 

[Zaac]

A little yeast rises the whole lump, in other words.

Absolutely out of context when dealing with lost sinners. That Scripture is not an impetus to remove ourselves from a world filled with sinners.

Rather Scripture shows Jesus didn’t suggest that purity is maintained by avoiding contact with impure, sinful things. He explained that it is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of it.

Purity is, He explained, an inside job. Scripture gives testimony of Jesus chastising the "religious elite" of His day for missing the point, saying “…you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence”.

The example that Jesus gave is the opposite of the current church's plan to draw inward and do our own thing and invite them.

Jesus went against the religious traditions of His day when He ate with tax collectors and spoke with foreign women and worked on the Sabbath and ran the swindlers out of the temple.

Jesus didn’t hang back from the world to avoid contamination. He’s fully aware of the extent to which humans can degrade themselves, but He became one of us and lived with us and touched the sick and the sinful with His hands and His heart. God isn’t less holy because of His contact with sin. Based on Jesus’ example, Christians are supposed to place themselves in contact with those who are not yet holy. Not isolate ourselves from them and then proceed to invite them to "our side of town" to be saved.

There were openly gay scouts before. There were openly lustful scouts before. There were openly prideful scouts before. There were openly covetous scouts before.

So what's changed? We already knew these things were there and we were there combatting it with the truth of the Gospel. So what in US changed with the announcement by the BSA?

Are we ashamed to be affiliated with them now that they have made an announcement that they would admit openly gay scouts?

We surely weren't moved to not associate with Mitt Romney and his Mormonism the same way.

 

[Sapper Woody]

My support is not for the BSA any more than it's for the ACLU.

The BSA just happens to be an organization that God has given the Church a platform in to raise up Godly young men.

But perhaps our penchant for retreat to form our own controlled groups is why we're such easy pickings.

Where is the backbone? Since when did the church become a bunch of skinny jeans wearing pansified weak people who are obviously very quick to defend their favorite tv shows, but who show no fight at all when it comes to defending the ground God has given them as a platform to raise up Godly young men?

The BSA wants to admit open homosexuals to go along with the already closeted homosexuals, then fine. The people of God should have been coming out of the woodworks to increase our presence in the BSA instead of tucking tail and running to start our own groups.

Jesus was always engaging people where they were. He went to them. Why is our answer seemingly always another program and bringing THEM to us?

I understand what you are saying. That's one reason I believe that Christians should not shy away from joining the military. If all the Christians left, then who'd be here? The Godless.

Where I disagree with you is where it concerns our kids. Our kids may not have the spiritual foundation necessary to bring the organization up. As we all know, it's much easier to be brought down than to pull someone up.

Imagine a teenager standing on a chair. Next to him, on the ground is a second teenager. It's going to be much easier for the teenager to be pulled off the chair than for him to pull the other one up to the chair. He'd have to have a pretty solid anchor point, and be physically strong enough to do so.

Now, imagine that there are other teenagers on the ground with the second teenager. Now the first has to have the anchor, be strong enough, AND convince the one on the ground that the chair is worth being visible and singled out for.

Now, we take the public school, or boy scouts, or any organization. Once the balance is upset where our youth can no longer pull up, but will instead just do good to hold on for dear life, we have a parental obligation to remove them from that situation, and like that Ark of the Covenant, just let it fall. Otherwise, we will bear the brunt of the consequences in trying to prevent the consequences.

 

[Zaac]

I understand what you are saying. That's one reason I believe that Christians should not shy away from joining the military. If all the Christians left, then who'd be here? The Godless.

Where I disagree with you is where it concerns our kids. Our kids may not have the spiritual foundation necessary to bring the organization up. As we all know, it's much easier to be brought down than to pull someone up.

Imagine a teenager standing on a chair. Next to him, on the ground is a second teenager. It's going to be much easier for the teenager to be pulled off the chair than for him to pull the other one up to the chair. He'd have to have a pretty solid anchor point, and be physically strong enough to do so.

Now, imagine that there are other teenagers on the ground with the second teenager. Now the first has to have the anchor, be strong enough, AND convince the one on the ground that the chair is worth being visible and singled out for.

Now, we take the public school, or boy scouts, or any organization. Once the balance is upset where our youth can no longer pull up, but will instead just do good to hold on for dear life, we have a parental obligation to remove them from that situation, and like that Ark of the Covenant, just let it fall. Otherwise, we will bear the brunt of the consequences in trying to prevent the consequences.

Sapper, why does the balance keep getting upset? It got upset in the public schools because we pulled our kids out.

It'll get upset in the BSA because we pull our kids out.

And I've time and time again seen just the opposite of what you've described.

Kids are often times more effective than their parents in witnessing Christ to other kids because unlike their parents, they don't mind the fact that the other kid is gay or into Goth or heavy metal or has two mommies.

They simply recognize that they are dealing with a person who doesn't seem to know Christ and they want them to know Him. And thus they approach the other kid as someone who doesn't know CHRIST, and not as someone doing all this other stuff.

God has given us the ground to be salt and light in the BSA. Why on earth would we cede that ground to the enemy without a fight? It's the equivalent of saying the Communist want Florida so lets just move all the Americans out of Florida and into Georgia without any attempt to stand our ground.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Sapper, why does the balance keep getting upset? It got upset in the public schools because we pulled our kids out.

I can agree with this. But the fact remains that (to me, anyway) the balance in the public school IS upset currently. Because of past failure, our kids currently don't have a public school in which they can easily grow as a Christian. It's a sad truth, and a hard one. But a truth nonetheless.

It'll get upset in the BSA because we pull our kids out.

Since I don't have any sons, the BSA is really of no account to me personally. But the jury is still out to me on whether I would have a child be a part of it. Eventually, they are going to have to face homosexuality. Maybe not until they enter the workforce, but still - eventually. I guess it would depend on their spiritual maturity and whether I believe that I as an active and involved parent (which is of course one of the problems, and most likely a subject for another thread) could counterbalance any negative impact the organization would have, and whether the positives outweigh the negatives for my children.

And I've time and time again seen just the opposite of what you've described.

It's not impossible, I'll agree. It all depends on the children involved, and their foundation in Christ. Hopefully, by the time they are teenagers, we've instilled such a love for Christ that they are no longer hanging on to our walk with Christ, but have their own, and can resist temptation, and be a positive example to the others.

Kids are often times more effective than their parents in witnessing Christ to other kids because unlike their parents, they don't mind the fact that the other kid is gay or into Goth or heavy metal or has two mommies.

They simply recognize that they are dealing with a person who doesn't seem to know Christ and they want them to know Him. And thus they approach the other kid as someone who doesn't know CHRIST, and not as someone doing all this other stuff.

This is one thing that bothers me about the rants against homosexuality. Yes, it is currently a "hot-topic" in the news, and yes, it is always being shoved down our throats. But is it any worse than the rampant hetero-sexuality we see every day on billboards, TV ads, magazines, books, the internet, and so on? Isn't the woman (or man) that is sleeping around with multiple partners with no repercussions doing just as much to erode the foundation of Biblical marriage as the homosexual agenda?

Sin is sin. Homosexuality = fornication = adultery = drunkenness = lying = stealing. Each one, if gone unchallenged, erodes at our foundation as a moral society just as much as the one before it.

God has given us the ground to be salt and light in the BSA. Why on earth would we cede that ground to the enemy without a fight? It's the equivalent of saying the Communist want Florida so lets just move all the Americans out of Florida and into Georgia without any attempt to stand our ground.

I don't think we should give ground without a fight. But if ground is already lost, don't let innocents become needless casualties while trying to retain it.

I think on this issue we are really close to thinking alike. I think that our levels of what we are willing to risk to fight are set differently.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I'm not willing to have my daughter taught evolution, and completely reject any admonishment for the decision.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I think the following, a website created and contributed to by Catholic seminarians, is a valid concern for all Christians who would consider leaving the Boy Scouts, though I certainly do not fault anyone who does pull their son out of BSA.

A recent NBC News article profiles several families who have chosen to pull their sons out of the Boy Scouts immediately in response to the decision. The Scouts have failed to live up to their own moral code, they say, and so they have made the painful decision to end their sons’ relationship with the Boy Scouts. I am sure that was not an easy conversation to have with their sons and I sympathize with these parents and children.

I am not a parent. I am not suggesting that these families did anything wrong. Ultimately, a child’s mother and father must make important decisions like these that they feel will be best for their child. I respect the decision to leave the Boy Scouts.

At the same time, I wonder what effect this action has on the community. Let us say, for instance, that a young boy who is openly gay joins the local pack. The next week, there are five fewer boys there. By the end of the year, after word has spread around the neighborhood, half of the boys are gone. Will this young man ever think to stop into a Church after this or will he think (as many gays and lesbians already think) that Christians hate him and do not want to associate with him?

I know many of you don't like or respect Pope Francis. Frankly, I don't care. The man is filled with a desire to preach Christ to the world. He has said ...

American Magazine: Surprise! A Jesuit named Francis​

“Between a church that goes into the street and gets into an accident and a church that is sick with self-referentiality, I have no doubts in preferring the first.”

So, do we go into the streets and get into an accident, or do we preach to the choir? That's the choice facing the American Christian, the Christians of the world, as God prepares to draw down the curtain on the whole shebang.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

We do not have to participate in the downfall. Scripture tells us to avoid evil, to not even look upon it. We can be in the world ad not of it. Nowhere in the bible are we told to allow our children's minds to be polluted by Godlessness. The premise is silly, and only meant to cause derision.

 

[Salty]

Okay Z-man

At what point - that is - what would have to happen for your to withdraw your support of the BSA?

If you dont want to answer my question - just say so.

So it appears, if the BSA was to allow a hom0sexual leader to take the kids on a weekend outing - with a keg of beer, invite some girl scouts to share tents, let some of the younger boys to drive his F-250, have several issues of some "mens" magizines, have a drug pusher vist the campsite, ......
It appears the Z-man would still defend the BSA

...The BSA just happens to be an organization that God has given the Church a platform in to raise up Godly young men.

Think Past tense

The BSA wants to admit open homosexuals to go along with the already closeted homosexuals, then fine. The people of God should have been coming out of the woodworks to increase our presence in the BSA instead of tucking tail and running to start our own groups.

What makes you think that Christians have NOT be involved in Scounting? ( answer would be appreciated)

Many Baptist and other Evangelical churches have sponsored the BSA as well as other groups such as the RCC and Mormons.

However, there is a time that we must adhear to Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

So I ask again - at what point will you no longer support the actions of the BSA.

My understanding was that a local troop would be able to make its own decision on membership in regards to "sexual orientation", however it appears that the local troop wil no longer have that option.

I have a pastor friend whose church sponsors a BAS. I hope to see him on Friday and see what his Baptist church plans to do.

According to this offical BSA site - though a youth may not be denied membership, it appears that the troop may prevent a hom0sexual adult from leading a troop.

I also have another question, but I dont want to go off OP (again) on this thread - click here for new BB question

 

[Zaac]

I think the following, a website created and contributed to by Catholic seminarians, is a valid concern for all Christians who would consider leaving the Boy Scouts, though I certainly do not fault anyone who does pull their son out of BSA.

I do believe that to be a very valid point. I mean if folks aren't even willing to let their kids go to Scouts with your kid just because he's gay, why would that kid or that kids parents want to have anything to do with them? Mama bears especially don't care for folks who hurt her cubs.

I know many of you don't like or respect Pope Francis. Frankly, I don't care. The man is filled with a desire to preach Christ to the world. He has said ...

American Magazine: Surprise! A Jesuit named Francis​

So, do we go into the streets and get into an accident, or do we preach to the choir? That's the choice facing the American Christian, the Christians of the world, as God prepares to draw down the curtain on the whole shebang.

I don't know too much about the Pope, but I agree with that sentiment. Whose purpose does it serve for the Church to turn inwards instead of getting our hands actively involved with the lost people of the world?

 

[Zaac]

If you dont want to answer my question - just say so.

Your question was answered. You just didn'tlike the answer.

So it appears, if the BSA was to allow a hom0sexual leader to take the kids on a weekend outing - with a keg of beer, invite some girl scouts to share tents, let some of the younger boys to drive his F-250, have several issues of some "mens" magizines, have a drug pusher vist the campsite, ......
It appears the Z-man would still defend the BSA

It appears that your eyes seemed to be blinded by your own need to make a point no matter how unfounded an example you have to stretch in order to attempt to make said point.

Please show me one example where all hades wouldn't break out if a heterosexual scout leader did the same thing.

Think Past tense

I'm thinking right now.

What makes you think that Christians have NOT be involved in Scounting? ( answer would be appreciated)

Many Baptist and other Evangelical churches have sponsored the BSA as well as other groups such as the RCC and Mormons.

However, there is a time that we must adhear to Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I didn't say we hadn't been. I said if we have a problem with them letting GAY Scout leaders in, then the straight Christian men need to get off their behinds and step up to the plate so that they don't have to use gay scout leaders.

So I ask again - at what point will you no longer support the actions of the BSA.

And I say again, I don't support the actions of the BSA anymore than I support the actions of the ACLU.

My understanding was that a local troop would be able to make its own decision on membership in regards to "sexual orientation", however it appears that the local troop wil no longer have that option.

So?

 

[Salty]

Your question was answered. You just didn'tlike the answer. ...

That is a matter of opinion.

and based on some of your other statements - oh well - when you remain silent you have spoken

 

[Zaac]

That is a matter of opinion.

It's a matter of fact. i answered with MY answer. You didn't like it.

and based on some of your other statements - oh well - when you remain silent you have spoken

And when you ignore the answer that was given, you have spoken that it wasn't the answer you wanted in order to help make your point.

 

[Salty]

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Y'all just gotta accept the fact that Zaac thinks he is better than you. You'll save wear and tear on yer foreheads. Better just to stick with what the bible says, and not let the Z-ster author any confusion.

 

[Don]

So, do we go into the streets and get into an accident, or do we preach to the choir? That's the choice facing the American Christian, the Christians of the world, as God prepares to draw down the curtain on the whole shebang.

Actually, it's a fallacy. There is no choice. We do both. Together.

Look, my wife doesn't go to war with me. Sapper's wife doesn't go with him. They remain at home. Does that make them any less valuable to the effort? NO. They give us purpose for what we're doing, they keep the homefires burning, and ensure we have a place to come back to.

Those in the church that are able to go out into the streets should go; those that are unable, or have different gifts/talents, should use those as God has given them. Maybe it's just making phone calls; maybe it's just picking up the litter around the church before the next service. To say that either are less valuable than those that go out in the streets is to deny scripture that says our uncomely parts are deserving of honor.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Actually, it's a fallacy. There is no choice. We do both. Together.

Look, my wife doesn't go to war with me. Sapper's wife doesn't go with him. They remain at home. Does that make them any less valuable to the effort? NO. They give us purpose for what we're doing, they keep the homefires burning, and ensure we have a place to come back to.

Those in the church that are able to go out into the streets should go; those that are unable, or have different gifts/talents, should use those as God has given them. Maybe it's just making phone calls; maybe it's just picking up the litter around the church before the next service. To say that either are less valuable than those that go out in the streets is to deny scripture that says our uncomely parts are deserving of honor.

You've missed my point. NO! We do not do both! The comparison of spouses remaining behind in war is inapplicable to the discussion. The church that stays within itself and preaches to the choir is slowing dying, doing nothing to spread the gospel, do the good works of the church, or grow in likeness to Christ, as the bride is commanded.