Transgender and the church

[jaigner]

that is false and has nothing to with this discussion.

Are you a doctor?

From doctors I've talked to, that is absolutely not false. Hormones are very powerful things.

Even though it is rare, it is something that Christians need to know how to respond to. Is it wrong for such a person to pursue corrective surgery?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Who said it was part of anything?

Both need to repent and separate and the one needs to change his lifestyle back to living as a male in all aspects of his life.

Incorrect..he has not gone back to presenting himself as a guy therefore there is not repentance and the sin continues.

The quotes say it all. This person must restore themselves to being a man with the implication that if they didn't they couldn't possibly have repented. restore, restitution, same principle. Can't have it both ways. Either making themselves back into a man/living again as a man equates with repentance and thus salvation or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

And if this couple is saved, then we are back to, are they still living in sin because this one continues to live as what she became? (and can't be reversed?) Or, since she is already blameless before God, should she continue as she is and make the best of things?

 

[annsni]

Maybe you better read that last verse again:

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

What do you think Paul was saying if not that we, while still bound to these fleshly bodies, would continue to sin?

So just because we will continue to always struggle with sin, we should embrace it and welcome it as a friend?? I don't see that supported by Scripture or that verse you quoted at all! Yes, we will all continue to sin yet a believer knows he's done wrong, struggles against the sin and repents when he fails. To say "Well, I'm a sinner so it's OK that I murdered someone because that's who I am and God has forgiven me anyway" is an abomination.

 

[Revmitchell]

The quotes say it all. This person must restore themselves to being a man with the implication that if they didn't they couldn't possibly have repented. restore, restitution, same principle. Can't have it both ways. Either making themselves back into a man/living again as a man equates with repentance and thus salvation or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

umm...no one is trying but you like to twist everything to fit your agenda.

And if this couple is saved, then we are back to, are they still living in sin because this one continues to live as what she became? (and can't be reversed?) Or, since she is already blameless before God, should she continue as she is and make the best of things?

He is not a she. It matters not what surgery he has. The organs associated with this change have no relevance on repentance. But you like to work to set up impossible and unnecessary standards that are irrelevant. He does not ever have to go on with his homosexual behavior regardless of any operation. He may have to live celibate but that is the consequence of his sin. Not your scenario.

 

[annsni]

I'm still not convinced that this person is in sin. Freeatlast can't know the motivation of this person based solely on the knowledge that church association gives. True believers will be chastised for their sin, true, but how do you know that isn't happening in this person's life?

You're saying that changing your sex and living as a gender that you were not born as is not sin??????? SERIOUSLY???

Rev, you and freeatlast can call me liberal all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that some sins are irreversable. Do you tell the murderer to go back and bring the victim back to life before they can be saved? What about the theif? How many of those do you expect to make restitution? How much restitution is enough to enable a person to be saved?

I do believe that the Bible talks about restitution. If I were to steal from someone before I was saved, I'd certainly try to return it now. Why wouldn't I want to try to make things right?

I'm sorry, but you are liberal one who expects a person to be able to lift themselves out of their sin! You are acting as though they can and must somehow work for their salvation.

I don't see anyone saying that anywhere. However, if one is truly saved, they have a new heart, they are a new creation. They no longer are a slave to sin but seek righteousness. They will show the fruit of the Spirit and seek to become more and more like Christ. If this never happens, we can certainly question as to whether they were truly saved.

If these things don't save, it makes my point perfectly. The point being that you have to deal with this person with the same measuring stick you use to deal with any other sin in the life of any other church member. We all still sin and sometimes we commit the same sin over and over again. Does this mean we can't be assured of what God promised us?

As I see it, this person is already suffering the consequence of their sin. They can't go back to being male. They are stuck. They could possibly be a eunach, but just as a murderer is stuck with that title, the man who once was is stuck being a woman.

If all their sins are forgiven, then the act of becoming a woman has been forgiven. Continuing to be a woman is no longer a sin.

So a murderer can continue to murder because it's already been forgiven?

It is the same with a person divorced and remarried before salvation. We don't expect them to put off the second wife and go back and be reconciled with the first. Why? Because that sin is forgiven and the binding broken. (not to mention going back and forth between spouses is warned against specifically in scripture)

I do not see Biblical divorce and remarriage as a sin.

Don't worry Rev. I understand exactly what you think my error is. Unfortunately, you have chosen(as have a good majority of "conservative" Christians) to focus on God's wrath instead of God's love. While His wrath is a terrible thing, His love and patience outshines it by far.

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Let me just add the last verse so that we have the context of the passage you quoted. It isn't God Paul is worried about judging, but those without the church. And if you read the entire passage, you'll find that the church was celebrating the fact that one of their own was shall we say "experienced". And that one was evidently "experiencing" and encouraging others within the church to "experience". And therein lies the trouble. Yes, we should expect Christians to attempt to live more perfectly because the world expects us to live more perfectly.

So we're to put them out because of the world? Not because of God's righteousness and holiness? Not because of purity and accountability??

That is not the case here. The person described in the OP, while living with the consequences of previous sin, is NOT encouraging others to follow in their footsteps. They even have gone to great lengths to prevent their sin from becoming public knowledge in order to better protect the church in which they serve. (if freeatlast can think the worst of them, then I get to think the best of them. It comes with being a liberal.)[/quote]

So as long as I don't encourage anyone else to murder, it's fine for me to continue in my own sin. Is that right?

And while we are on the subject of which sins are going to keep us from salvation let me point out a few things that God hates:

Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.



Let me count, lets see....pride....wicked imaginations.....mischeif....discord... Wow, I can count four out of the seven happening in this thread! How so?

Pride: that this person's sin is somehow worse than those of the other member's of their church (or ourselves since we are the ones debating)

Wicked imaginations: The very first idea that freeatlast considered was that thesee people were hom*sexuals in disguise. He won't even consider the idea that this person may have been born with ambiguous genitalia and was raised as a boy only to find later that he fell more toward the feminine than the masculine.

Mischief: Someone outed this person. I have yet to see proof that the outing was done for the good of the person (ie, to make them deal with their sin). This person was well liked and well respected. Who started the trouble?

Discord: I can see the potential for all kinds of discord, can't you? I mean, I could take it personally that Rev Mitchell called me a liberal that was full of error. We could put each other on our ignore lists. If we were a church, I can fully see the potential for it to rip a church in half and me and the Rev might end up on seperate sides! (freeatlast would be on the other side too)

Yeah, see we need to tread awfully carefully when dealing with issues such as this.

And I have to say that this is why the church is in trouble. Because we're not allowed to call sin a sin but instead should just all be happy in our own world. God doesn't want anyone sad and certainly doesn't ask for us to do anything. As long as we say a prayer, we're hunky dorey in His eyes and we should just all get along.

Sounds like Joel Osteen.

 

[annsni]

He is not a she. It matters not what surgery he has. The organs associated with this change have no relevance on repentance.

Let "her" stop taking hormones and see how much of a she she is. While he may not have a male organ, he is still male and his chromosomes will tell you that.

 

[menageriekeeper]

So just because we will continue to always struggle with sin, we should embrace it and welcome it as a friend?? I don't see that supported by Scripture or that verse you quoted at all! Yes, we will all continue to sin yet a believer knows he's done wrong, struggles against the sin and repents when he fails. To say "Well, I'm a sinner so it's OK that I murdered someone because that's who I am and God has forgiven me anyway" is an abomination.

I didn't say this either. What I have said is that we must treat this sexual sin as we do any other. We are drawn to our fleshly desires and sexual sin for some reason I have yet to understand, draws harder than any other. What I am saying, is that it is unrealistic to expect this person to immedieately drop a lifestyle they have lived in for years as a sign of repentance/salvation.

As I have said from the beginning, this person needs discipling not condemnation. (and that is IF this person really did begin the process from a position of hom*sexuality and not some physical/biological impairment that we might not be aware of)

 

[Revmitchell]

Let "her" stop taking hormones and see how much of a she she is. While he may not have a male organ, he is still male and his chromosomes will tell you that.

Well....you know....now your just dealing with facts. What I have found is that usually when someone is supporting things like this, something about it is personal whether it is about them, a family member, or a close friend etc.

 

[annsni]

I didn't say this either. What I have said is that we must treat this sexual sin as we do any other. We are drawn to our fleshly desires and sexual sin for some reason I have yet to understand, draws harder than any other. What I am saying, is that it is unrealistic to expect this person to immedieately drop a lifestyle they have lived in for years as a sign of repentance/salvation.

As I have said from the beginning, this person needs discipling not condemnation. (and that is IF this person really did begin the process from a position of hom*sexuality and not some physical/biological impairment that we might not be aware of)

* No one is expecting an immediate change in lifestyle but a growing awareness by them that something is not right and an eventual move to change it. What is this case about? "They attend for several years and become a loved part of the church. Even to yourself. They both are very active and teach at the church as well as carry out other duties." This is what appears to be an outwardly "mature" believer who has been a believer for at least several years (although i'd hope a church that allowed a couple to teach would only allow a couple that are believers for more than several years). This is not a new "believer" by any stretch of the imagination.

* The church has failed if it has not taught on sin and the steps to deal with sin. The people in the congregation should be growing more and more like Christ. It is not the case here apparently. Deception is just one of the glaring sins here.

* Yes, this person needs discipling - and counseling as does the "husband".

* The case given to us is a man who chose to become a woman. There is nothing short of a rare genetic abnormality that could be an excuse in this case but that is not what was set forth. Instead, we have a man who decided he was really a woman, had an operation to remove the organs that God gave him and is now taking hormones for the rest of his life to be what he is not - a woman.

 

[Revmitchell]

Scripture expects an immediate end to homosexual activity. Without delay. There is no reason to do otherwise.


1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

 

[menageriekeeper]

If I were to steal from someone before I was saved, I'd certainly try to return it now. Why wouldn't I want to try to make things right?

YOU would, but a Christian that has not matured to you level, might not. What does that say about the immature one? That they aren't repentant/saved?

I do not see Biblical divorce and remarriage as a sin.

But I wasn't talking about biblical divorce. I said divorced and remarried before salvation. I intended to imply a nonBiblical cause for the divorce.

So we're to put them out because of the world? Not because of God's righteousness and holiness? Not because of purity and accountability??

Hey, I didn't say it. I quoted it right from my KJV E-Sword.

I have more to say, but I can't get a thought in edgewise with the commotion currently going on in my house. I'll be back later. Ya'll go visit my repentance thread, ya hear?

 

[annsni]

YOU would, but a Christian that has not matured to you level, might not. What does that say about the immature one? That they aren't repentant/saved?

But they are "mature" enough to teach in the church, are they not?

Hey, I didn't say it. I quoted it right from my KJV E-Sword.

Let's take a look at what the entire passage says. We'll look at it in the KJV since that's what you used:

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

No where is this saying that we are to toss them out because of the world. The verse "But them that are without God judgeth" does not mean that the world judges but that God judges the world. Contrast it to verse 12 that says "Do not ye judge them that are within?" In other words, we can't judge the world and tell them what to do because that's God's place. Our place is to judge the sin within the body of Christ - those that are within the church.

I have more to say, but I can't get a thought in edgewise with the commotion currently going on in my house. I'll be back later. Ya'll go visit my repentance thread, ya hear?

You mean you don't have complete peace and quiet like I do with your family?? Oh - wait - all of mine is out at church. LOL - I hope things are still standing when you get back! I'm enjoying the few hours of peace and quiet myself!!

 

[Revmitchell]

No where is this saying that we are to toss them out because of the world. The verse "But them that are without God judgeth" does not mean that the world judges but that God judges the world. Contrast it to verse 12 that says "Do not ye judge them that are within?" In other words, we can't judge the world and tell them what to do because that's God's place. Our place is to judge the sin within the body of Christ - those that are within the church.

That is right. The church is to judge the church and God will deal with the sin of the world. She seems to have a strong inability to understand some elementary things in scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

Are you a doctor?

From doctors I've talked to, that is absolutely not false. Hormones are very powerful things.

Even though it is rare, it is something that Christians need to know how to respond to. Is it wrong for such a person to pursue corrective surgery?

It is wrong to be a homosexual. Hormons has nothing to do with it, sin does. Before Christ I ran every woman I could. If I can overcome in Christ so can a homosexual. The problem is will they surrender to Him?

 

[jaigner]

It is wrong to be a homosexual. Hormons has nothing to do with it, sin does. Before Christ I ran every woman I could. If I can overcome in Christ so can a homosexual. The problem is will they surrender to Him?

You must be mistaking me. I'm not arguing that homosexuality is right. We're talking about transgendered people here, and I'm posing the question of what the Church's response should be to one who was born with gender ambiguity. Should they stay like they are? Should they pick one?

This, like most issues, is not always as cut and dry as it seems. And the Church should be able to live with that tension.

 

[menageriekeeper]

But they are "mature" enough to teach in the church, are they not?

Actually, I don't believe they are and I wonder how something of this magnitude was missed by those who led them to Christ and by those who allowed them to teach in the first place. (not that I believe this sin is worse than say using p*rn, neither have any business in a leadership role) Either mature church leadership wasn't in place or this couple was showing fruit in spite of the rotten spot. When you get a bruised banana off the bunch, do you throw the whole thing away or do you cut out the bad spot and use the rest?

Now, don't think I'm backing off on what I've said earlier. If this is truly a case of hom*sexual behavior then the sin must be dealt with as Paul says (by not taking communion with such a one), but we still have to tread carefully and I'm still not convinced that we have proof of that this person is still "living in sin". We have to consider the possibility that this person is living as the gender that best fits his/her bodily attributes (you know, its kinda hard to find decent adjectives for this). God doesn't make mistakes, but Satan certainly interferes in God's business (us) and the result is often something we'd rather not have to deal with.

* No one is expecting an immediate change in lifestyle but a growing awareness by them that something is not right and an eventual move to change it.

Unfortunately, this is not what I am sensing in this thread. What I am sensing is the thought these folk have had time to repent the way "we" think they ought to and they haven't. And since they haven't God can't possibly still have a use for them.

something about it is personal whether it is about them, a family member, or a close friend etc.

Well you are almost right. I am in a unfriendly mood tonight when it comes to separating sins by gender/type. Let me tell you why. A friend of mine (heterosexual so you'll know) has been married for 26 years. Earlier this week, her husband left her after he told her he'd been planning on leaving her for years already and had only been waiting until his disability check came through. (she supported his sorry self while this happened) Oh, and while he planned this, he was just as active in his church as this couple is.

Do you really think that you can convince me that the sin this transgendered person is supposedly committing is any worse than what my friend's husband is putting her and their chldren through? Its not gonna happen. Both need to be dealt with in the same manner.

The reality is folks, we can't make people behave the way we want them too. We have to accept them where they stand, just as God does. Then we have to pray for them and let the Holy Spirit work for however long He has too, to bring them right.

That doesn't mean we have to let them parade through the church, but it also shouldn't mean that we toss them to the street. (as much as I'd like to stomp a certain worthless no good piece of manflesh into a greasy spot in the sidewalk)

The OP asked what should we do with such people? Well, what should we do. Not what "they" should do. What should WE do? The only answer I can see is the one I've given over and over: Let the Holy Spirit do His job.

 

[jaigner]

Do you really think that you can convince me that the sin this transgendered person is supposedly committing is any worse than what my friend's husband is putting her and their chldren through? Its not gonna happen. Both need to be dealt with in the same manner.

The reality is folks, we can't make people behave the way we want them too. We have to accept them where they stand, just as God does. Then we have to pray for them and let the Holy Spirit work for however long He has too, to bring them right.

Wonderfully stated. We need to get over ranking sins by how gross we think they are.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well you are almost right. I am in a unfriendly mood tonight when it comes to separating sins by gender/type. Let me tell you why. A friend of mine (heterosexual so you'll know) has been married for 26 years. Earlier this week, her husband left her after he told her he'd been planning on leaving her for years already and had only been waiting until his disability check came through. (she supported his sorry self while this happened) Oh, and while he planned this, he was just as active in his church as this couple is.

Figured as much

Do you really think that you can convince me that the sin this transgendered person is supposedly committing is any worse than what my friend's husband is putting her and their chldren through?

I cannot speak for that persons church but why would you project that on me or anyone else here on this board. And the answer to your question is no I don't nor would I want to. Honestly I have less patience for men who mistreat their families that most anything else.

Its not gonna happen. Both need to be dealt with in the same manner.

Yes they do.

The reality is folks, we can't make people behave the way we want them too. We have to accept them where they stand, just as God does. Then we have to pray for them and let the Holy Spirit work for however long He has too, to bring them right.

That doesn't mean we have to let them parade through the church, but it also shouldn't mean that we toss them to the street. (as much as I'd like to stomp a certain worthless no good piece of manflesh into a greasy spot in the sidewalk)

Well your issue is with God not anyone here

The OP asked what should we do with such people? Well, what should we do. Not what "they" should do. What should WE do? The only answer I can see is the one I've given over and over: Let the Holy Spirit do His job.

His job is accomplished through the church when it follows God's word. We cannot just ignore scripture.

 

[Revmitchell]

Wonderfully stated. We need to get over ranking sins by how gross we think they are.

No what we need to do is obey scripture.

 

[jaigner]

No what we need to do is obey scripture.

I believe what I said is in line with Scripture.

Blessings, friend.