Translation problem Gal. 2:21 (KJV)

[Bob Alkire]

Even though a version is not my preference, I've never brought myself to say such a thing.

I agree with you on this, TC.

I have read most of the newer version, the NIV, NASB, The Living Bible, NKJV and so on. I have found they all give the message.

My preference is the KJV and then next would be the ASV 1901( I guess the ASV 1901 comes to me from Grace and Alva J. McClain while in school) and then the NASB. I would be a lot like A.W. Tozer, I couldn't wait until the next new one came out and after reading it, I went back to the KJV. But use the one that the Holy Spirit seems to be teaching you the most out of. But ever which version you have pick it up and study it!I know the KJV isn't from the same underlining text but I get the same message out of all of them.

 

[Salamander]

The whole question isn't relevent to anything except opion.

The supposition is if one can merit righteousness by keeping the law then Christ is dead in vain.

We know Christ is not dead, thus the confirming by His Resurrection we have eternal life and are not under the penalty of breaking the law according to sin. We don't face the second death to receive those wages.

Anyone who objects to the wording of the KJB as if a declaration is made that Christ "is dead" attacks the veracity of the Scriptures.

Wish yall would learn this.raying:

 

[StefanM]

The whole question isn't relevent to anything except opion.

The supposition is if one can merit righteousness by keeping the law then Christ is dead in vain.

We know Christ is not dead, thus the confirming by His Resurrection we have eternal life and are not under the penalty of breaking the law according to sin. We don't face the second death to receive those wages.

Anyone who objects to the wording of the KJB as if a declaration is made that Christ "is dead" attacks the veracity of the Scriptures.

Wish yall would learn this.raying:

If that were the intent, Paul would have used a different tense, not the aorist.

I object to the KJV rendering, and I guess that is in a sense an attack on the veracity of the KJV. For you, that means the scriptures because you think the KJV is perfect. I prefer the Greek text, myself. This isn't even an issue of CT vs. TR. It's an issue where the KJV seemingly mistranslates a Greek form. That's all. Paul was correct. The KJV translators were not.

 

[The Scribe]

The whole question isn't relevent to anything except opion.

The supposition is if one can merit righteousness by keeping the law then Christ is dead in vain.

We know Christ is not dead, thus the confirming by His Resurrection we have eternal life and are not under the penalty of breaking the law according to sin. We don't face the second death to receive those wages.

Anyone who objects to the wording of the KJB as if a declaration is made that Christ "is dead" attacks the veracity of the Scriptures.

Wish yall would learn this.raying:

Finally someone gets it. :thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

God had it right in 1599. Why was it necessary to change it?

Gal 2:20-21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
I am crucified with Christ, but I liue, yet not I any more, but Christ liueth in me: and in that that I now liue in the flesh, I liue by the faith in the Sonne of God, who hath loued me, and giuen him selfe for me.
21 I doe not abrogate the grace of God: for if righteousnes be by the Lawe, then Christ dyed without a cause.

 

[TCGreek]

IMO, "died."

1. Well, I decided to consider another aorist with Christ as a doer of the action behind the verb, to get to the heart of this matter.

Here's what I came up with:

Χριστὸς ἡμᾶς ἐξηγόρασεν--"Christ redeemed us..." (3:13).

The KJV has "Christ hath redeemed us..." Here the KJV translators treated the aorist as a simple past.

2. The only problem here is that we are not dealing with a conditional sentence as in 2:21.

3. But I found a similar text at 2:18: "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

4. Both 2:21 and 2:18 have the same type of conditional sentences in the Greek, with the only difference being the verb tenses in the apodosis, the then clause.

5. In 2:21 the verb is aorist, but in 2:18 the verb is present.

6. But despite the differences in the verb tenses in the apodosis in the same type of conditional sentences, the KJV treated the verb tenses as the same.

 

[The Scribe]

God had it right in 1599. Why was it necessary to change it?

Gal 2:20-21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
I am crucified with Christ, but I liue, yet not I any more, but Christ liueth in me: and in that that I now liue in the flesh, I liue by the faith in the Sonne of God, who hath loued me, and giuen him selfe for me.
21 I doe not abrogate the grace of God: for if righteousnes be by the Lawe, then Christ dyed without a cause.

The Geneva is older English. Anyway, dyed as in a coloring material or matter?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The Geneva is older English. Anyway, dyed as in a coloring material or matter?

Your KJV self-defines, look it up in the KJV:

John 11:32 (KJV1611 Edition):
Then when Mary was come where Iesus was, and saw him, shee fell downe at his feete, saying vnto him, Lord, if thou hadst beene here, my brother had not dyed.

 

[The Scribe]

Your KJV self-defines, look it up in the KJV:

John 11:32 (KJV1611 Edition):
Then when Mary was come where Iesus was, and saw him, shee fell downe at his feete, saying vnto him, Lord, if thou hadst beene here, my brother had not dyed.

John 11:32 (KJV)
Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

Every KJV I look this verse up in, the word is "died."

 

[StefanM]

John 11:32 (KJV)
Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

Every KJV I look this verse up in, the word is "died."

You have the KJVs with updated spellings.

 

[The Scribe]

You have the KJVs with updated spellings.

Every online Bible I can find has the same spelling.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Every online Bible I can find has the same spelling.

From e-swords KJV1611

"Then when Mary was come where Iesus was, and saw him, shee fell downe at his feete, saying vnto him, Lord, if thou hadst beene here, my brother had not dyed."

which matches my hardcopy reproduction by Hendrickson.

You can check it ou HERE in a photocopied KJV1611

 

[franklinmonroe]

The Geneva is older English...

Evidently, you're not paying attention; the Geneva is not significantly older language. The AV was supposedly a revision based upon the Bishop's Bible which was first published in 1568. The king's revisors at times would simply mark their text edits upon a copy of the Bishop's Bible and send it to the printer for composing. The complete Geneva Bible was first published in 1560. Yet, it seems the KJV text appears more similar to the Geneva than the Bishop's overall. Also, many scholars have estimated that the verbiage of the KJV New Testament is 80-90% borrowed from Tyndale. The KJV language is not removed far enough from the Geneva to simply make an assumption.

 

[The Scribe]

Evidently, you're not paying attention; the Geneva is not significantly older language.

It doesn't really matter. It all means the same thing.

But, "dyed" has taken on a new meaning. Look it up.

 

[TCGreek]

Evidently, you're not paying attention; the Geneva is not significantly older language. The AV was supposedly a revision based upon the Bishop's Bible which was first published in 1568. The king's revisors at times would simply mark their text edits upon a copy of the Bishop's Bible and send it to the printer for composing. The complete Geneva Bible was first published in 1560. Yet, it seems the KJV text appears more similar to the Geneva than the Bishop's overall. Also, many scholars have estimated that the verbiage of the KJV New Testament is 80-90% borrowed from Tyndale. The KJV language is not removed far enough from the Geneva to simply make an assumption.

I'm interested in reasoning from the biblical text. What does the Greek or Hebrew say? How best to translate the text in question?

But if this is not posible or made difficult because of an apriori position, then we're only spinning top in mud.

 

[franklinmonroe]

It doesn't really matter. It all means the same thing.

I'm not so interested in your conjecture; if you can substantiate your claims, I'm willing to listen.

But, "dyed" has taken on a new meaning. Look it up.

No, you are confusing the archaic spelling of a word (to cease living) with a completely different word (a substance used to color materials).

 

[Palatka51]

Double post, sorry.

 

[Palatka51]

StefanM,

Edwards post above sheds some light. The Geneva, which predates the KJV, has it correctly.

Why the KJV translators didn't maintain it, I don't know?

It would have been nice to have been there.

 

[Salamander]

If that were the intent, Paul would have used a different tense, not the aorist.

I object to the KJV rendering, and I guess that is in a sense an attack on the veracity of the KJV. For you, that means the scriptures because you think the KJV is perfect. I prefer the Greek text, myself. This isn't even an issue of CT vs. TR. It's an issue where the KJV seemingly mistranslates a Greek form. That's all. Paul was correct. The KJV translators were not.

Only in your convoluted imagination and bias against the KJB.

It's either by your opinion "semingly" a mistranslation or not "seemingly". See what convolutions do to confuse a man and leave him still guessing?

Perfect understanding is in the KJB and nothing is done to mislead the reader.:applause:

 

[Salamander]

God had it right in 1599. Why was it necessary to change it?

Gal 2:20-21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
I am crucified with Christ, but I liue, yet not I any more, but Christ liueth in me: and in that that I now liue in the flesh, I liue by the faith in the Sonne of God, who hath loued me, and giuen him selfe for me.
21 I doe not abrogate the grace of God: for if righteousnes be by the Lawe, then Christ dyed without a cause.

Because dying without a cause requires that the person doing the dying know that it was without a cause is better understood to be vanity.


Define "abrogate" in a simpler form than "frustrate".

Abrogate:1 : to abolish by authoritative action : annul 2 : to treat as nonexistent

Frustrate:1 a: to balk or defeat in an endeavor b: to induce feelings of discouragement in2 a (1): to make ineffectual : bring to nothing (2): impede, obstruct b: to make invalid or of no effect

Paul could not abolish the grace of God in any fashion; neither in his own life, nor in the lives of others, but he could frustrate the grace of God in not receiving it according to God's will.

I'm amazed how ignorant of the word's definitions so many who tout the MV's and priors to the KJB in fruitless energies.

Paul had no authority over the grace of God as if he could abolish it, but could make it of no effect in his life and thereby effect grace in others lives too.

Let God be true and EVERY man a LIAR!:godisgood: