Transubstantiation…

[unprofitable]

Campion said in post 34 that Christ called the "eucharist sacrifice" the New Testament. This is not true. The sacrifice of Christ was the validating and securing of the New Covenant to the sons of God and that in order to do so there must first be the death of the testator. (Heb 9;16) The suffering of Christ to bring the promises of the New Covenant to his people is what the Lord's supper represents. He says in John 15:15, "...for ALL things that I have heard of my Father, I have made known unto you..." His words, teachings, and sayings are the New Covenant.

Several of the catholic commentators have said that to believe that the blood and body of Christ are literally eaten by the participants requires an act of faith.

Since you say faith is central to the body and blood of Christ becoming literal, it would seem to be reasonable to ask and present the following questions..

What faith then is manifested in your need to have relics?

We are commanded to not make unto the Godhead any graven images. Exo 20:4, Lev 26:1, Deu 4:16, 23,25, to name but a few.

Isa 40:20 calls those who do such things desolate. The whole chapter of Isaiah 44 and Jeremiah 10 describe them as vanity.

Deu 27:15 says, "CURSED be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord.."

Yet your places of worship are covered in images and statues of who you say is Christ and I would believe that whenever you pray that is the image that you see. Since that image varies by country and people, which one is the true Christ?

No less than four of your locations claim to have the head of John the Baptist.

Your shroud of Turin.

Your need for relics, is related to your need to believe in transubstantiation, and is the same as the need for a sign.

Christ said in Matt 12:39, "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign."

My hope for you is that the Lord will open your eyes to the true understanding of the scriptures.

Your need for relics and transubstantiation is the antithesis of faith.

 

[Cathode]

I took canadyjd question in post 57 (which you quoted in post 58) simply requiring only a "yes" or "no"
So please amuse me - is the answer to his question yes or no?

Sorry Salty, I truly did not see your post mate. And I didn’t know that it was a simple yes or no requirement in the question, it wasn’t specified as such.

I do not want to upset any dudes Faith in the Lord by defence of my own Faith in the Lord.

Everyone is in their own walk with the Lord ultimately and I run from disturbing that.

 

[Cathode]

The only thing I can ultimately say, is that you can never go wrong believing Jesus Words
Stand on them and trust them in complete Faith.
Jesus is Truth Incarnate, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

So YES, Jesus Flesh is real food and His Blood is Real drink.

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry Salty, I truly did not see your post mate. And I didn’t know that it was a simple yes or no requirement in the question, it wasn’t specified as such.

I do not want to upset any dudes Faith in the Lord by defence of my own Faith in the Lord.

Everyone is in their own walk with the Lord ultimately and I run from disturbing that.

I’ll clarify the question: “Yes or No”, while Jesus was sitting at the table with His disciples , passing around the bread and wine, did they consume the literal flesh and blood of Jesus?

Since Jesus shared in the supper, did Jesus literally consume His own flesh and blood? Yes or No?

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

The only thing I can ultimately say, is that you can never go wrong believing Jesus Words….

Then you should have no trouble believing the words of Jesus when He specifically stated in the context of eating His flesh and drinking His blood that His “words” were Spirit and the flesh profits nothing. He is clearly saying they shouldn’t understand His command literally.

In the same context of that passage Jesus said if someone eats His flesh and drink His blood that person will never get hungry or thirsty.

Since you believe you are literally eating His flesh and drinking His blood, do you still eat food and drink fluids, yes or no?

If you are still eating food and drinking fluids, why are you doing that? Don’t you have faith to only partake of Christ’s flesh and blood?

Or do you see that as symbolic? I suspect you are still eating food and drinking fluids, but please answer yes or no because if you don’t eat or drink anything but the Lord’s supper, I’ll convert to Catholicism.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

@Cathode, @Walter, @Campion

You have stated the words of Jesus in John 6, concerning eating His flesh and drinking His blood should be taken literally and with faith.

Jesus also said in John 6, that if you eat His flesh and drink His blood you would never hunger or thirst again.

So, please answer yes or no. Do you still eat food and drink fluids? Please answer yes or no?

If you do, why don’t you take these words of Jesus, spoken in the context of eating His flesh and drinking His blood literally and with faith?

 

[Cathode]

I’ll clarify the question: “Yes or No”, while Jesus was sitting at the table with His disciples , passing around the bread and wine, did they consume the literal flesh and blood of Jesus?

Since Jesus shared in the supper, did Jesus literally consume His own flesh and blood? Yes or No?

peace to you

What Jesus broke and gave to His disciples was His Body and what He gave to them to drink was His Blood by the power of His Word.

They ate His Body and drank His Blood in Covenant.

 

[Cathode]

Then you should have no trouble believing the words of Jesus when He specifically stated in the context of eating His flesh and drinking His blood that His “words” were Spirit and the flesh profits nothing. He is clearly saying they shouldn’t understand His command literally.

In the same context of that passage Jesus said if someone eats His flesh and drink His blood that person will never get hungry or thirsty.

Since you believe you are literally eating His flesh and drinking His blood, do you still eat food and drink fluids, yes or no?

If you are still eating food and drinking fluids, why are you doing that? Don’t you have faith to only partake of Christ’s flesh and blood?

Or do you see that as symbolic? I suspect you are still eating food and drinking fluids, but please answer yes or no because if you don’t eat or drink anything but the Lord’s supper, I’ll convert to Catholicism.

peace to you

I believe Jesus Flesh is real food and His Blood is Real drink, you don’t obviously, and I think you need to trust Jesus words.

Jesus isn’t some dude off the street you can just ignore.

 

[canadyjd]

I believe Jesus Flesh is real food and His Blood is Real drink, you don’t obviously, and I think you need to trust Jesus words.

Jesus isn’t some dude off the street you can just ignore.

You should just trust Jesus’s words from John 6. Jesus said if you eat His flesh and drink His blood you won’t get hungry of thirsty again.

Are you eating food and drinking fluids? Yes or No? If you do, why? If you do, you obviously don’t trust Jesus’s words, according to your own standards.

Jesus isn’t some dude off the street that you can ignore. If Jesus says you are never going to get hungry or thirsty again if you eat His flesh and drink His blood, then you must have faith to believe it literally!

BTW, Jesus did not literally consume His own flesh and blood and neither did the disciples.

Let me know when you stop eating and drinking.

peace to you

 

[Cathode]

You should just trust Jesus’s words from John 6. Jesus said if you eat His flesh and drink His blood you won’t get hungry of thirsty again.

Are you eating food and drinking fluids? Yes or No? If you do, why? If you do, you obviously don’t trust Jesus’s words, according to your own standards.

Jesus isn’t some dude off the street that you can ignore. If Jesus says you are never going to get hungry or thirsty again if you eat His flesh and drink His blood, then you must have faith to believe it literally!

BTW, Jesus did not literally consume His own flesh and blood and neither did the disciples.

Let me know when you stop eating and drinking.

peace to you

You are trying to understand by human reasoning and this will profit nothing, the words spoken are of the Spirit, and things of the Spirit can only believed in the Spirit by Faith.

Jesus did not require them to understand with their minds, He required them to believe with their hearts.

The very same drama that played out then plays out to this very moment, those who believe in the Spirit by Faith and those who can not step over mired in human reasoning.
They trust their human reasoning more than they trust Jesus own words.

To believe is something of The Spirit, not of human reasoning. Faith goes beyond reason.

People talk a big game of Faith, but when comes to the real threshold they balk. You must be as little children who run through that threshold all the time. Little children do not understand many things, but they believe because they trust the one who tells them.

So must we believe the Lord, believe Jesus because He said it, not because you understand.
If you only believe what you understand, then you are not as little children.

Many live in practical denial of Jesus words, they rationalise something symbolic to mask their unbelief.

Believe as little children. “ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “ . Yes Lord I believe, you have the words of everlasting life.

“But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)” John 6:64

 

[canadyjd]

You are trying to understand by human reasoning and this will profit nothing, the words spoken are of the Spirit, and things of the Spirit can only believed in the Spirit by Faith.

Jesus did not require them to understand with their minds, He required them to believe with their hearts.

The very same drama that played out then plays out to this very moment, those who believe in the Spirit by Faith and those who can not step over mired in human reasoning.
They trust their human reasoning more than they trust Jesus own words.

To believe is something of The Spirit, not of human reasoning. Faith goes beyond reason.

People talk a big game of Faith, but when comes to the real threshold they balk. You must be as little children who run through that threshold all the time. Little children do not understand many things, but they believe because they trust the one who tells them.

So must we believe the Lord, believe Jesus because He said it, not because you understand.
If you only believe what you understand, then you are not as little children.

Many live in practical denial of Jesus words, they rationalise something symbolic to mask their unbelief.

Believe as little children. “ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “ . Yes Lord I believe, you have the words of everlasting life.

“But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)” John 6:64

All those words chastising those who do not believe Jesus was speaking literally when He said to to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

And yet, you deny the very words of Jesus every time you eat food and drink fluids because Jesus also said in the same passage that you word never get hungry or thirsty if you consumed His flesh and drank His blood.

“There are some of you who do not believe”, He said. You are living in denial of Jesus’s words every time you eat and drink anything other than the supper.

Don’t get mired in human reasoning. Believe the words of Jesus by faith. You don’t need to eat or drink anymore. Be as a little child and stop thinking you actually need to consume food and water to live.

Just say, “Yes Lord, I believe you were speaking literally when you said I’d never get hungry or thirsty again if I consumed your flesh and drank your blood. Therefore, I will no longer eat or drink anything but the flesh and blood of Jesus”.

Don’t just talk a big game of faith. Stop eating and drinking. That will prove you really believe Jesus was speaking literally.

Get back with us in about a month and let us know how that is working for you.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

@Cathode, @Walter, @Campion

Come on guys. Surely some Catholic scholar at some point in history addressed the issue, haven’t they? Can’t you offer some answer?

If you take the words of Jesus in John 6 literally, why are you still eating and drinking anything other than the Lord’s Supper?

Jesus said if you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you will never hunger or thirst again.

I’ll answer. They reason you continue to eat and drink is because you understand the words of Jesus in John 6 are metaphorical..

You can’t admit it because it undercuts your argument consuming the Flesh and Blood of Jesus should be taken literally.

Easy peasy

peace to you

 

[Cathode]

@Cathode, @Walter, @Campion

Come on guys. Surely some Catholic scholar at some point in history addressed the issue, haven’t they? Can’t you offer some answer?

If you take the words of Jesus in John 6 literally, why are you still eating and drinking anything other than the Lord’s Supper?

Jesus said if you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you will never hunger or thirst again.

I’ll answer. They reason you continue to eat and drink is because you understand the words of Jesus in John 6 are metaphorical..

You can’t admit it because it undercuts your argument consuming the Flesh and Blood of Jesus should be taken literally.

Easy peasy

peace to you

You are stuck in human reasoning, not seeing Jesus words with the eyes of Faith.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal Life, and I will raise him up on the Last day “

It’s the spiritual hunger and thirst Jesus is talking about, not symbolic.

He also says they have eternal life, does not mean they will live forever in this life, because He says He will raise them up on the Last day, which assumes these people will physically die.

In this Covenant, Jesus comes to us Himself and strengthens us.

There is a great gulf between merely eating bread and drinking wine, and receiving Jesus Himself fully present in Covenant.

We aren’t interested in merely bread and wine, we only care about receiving Jesus Himself in Covenant Communion, nothing less will satisfy our hunger and thirst. Only Jesus Himself. Anything less is not Communion at all. For us it would be like eating the husks in some far off sty, by comparison to receiving Jesus Himself.

Bread and wine do not give life, Only Jesus Himself come in the flesh.

 

[37818]

“ He who eats my
flesh and drinks my blood has eternal Life, and I will raise him up on the Last day “

John 6:35, ". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . ."
John 6:47, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ."

 

[Cathode]

Make a supernatural act of Faith in Jesus words as Peter did in John 6.

Each day we receive Jesus Himself as our manna from heaven whilst travelling this desert, our daily bread at the renewal of the Covenant.

What makes it Communion is Jesus Himself fully present in His humanity and Divinity. With joyful and thankful hearts we see Him by Faith and say, It is the Lord!

 

[Cathode]

John 6:35, ". . . And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . ."
John 6:47, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. . . ."

That’s right. Those who believed Jesus words that His flesh was real food and blood real drink attended the feast and ate His flesh and drank His blood.

One did attend the feast with out belief in Jesus words, and being without the garment of Faith was cast into the outer darkness.

“As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.” John 6:66

Those who don’t believe Jesus words, never even make it to the feast.

In these two instances we see Jesus parable of the Great Feast of the King play out.
Those invited by the Lord to eat his flesh and drink his blood in Covenant in John 6 are like those who were first invited by the King but refused.

Judas the man who did attend the feast but was without the wedding garment of faith and belief in Jesus words, was cast into the outer darkness.

Either way you must believe Jesus words to attend this Feast. Whether you do not take this invitation in disbelief or attend it in disbelief, it ends in great loss.

You must pass through this singularity of Faith as little children who believe by Faith not by understanding.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” John 6:65

The Father enables little children of Faith who believe Jesus words in faith, but yet do not understand.

“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.“

Believe Jesus words as little children, you will not believe as the wise and learned.

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

The wise and the learned say nonsense, impossible, ridiculous.

The little children of Faith believe it because Jesus said it, that is more than enough for them. And they make no qualifications.

 

[37818]

That’s right. Those who believed Jesus words that His flesh was real food and blood real drink attended the feast and ate His flesh and drank His blood.

One did attend the feast with out belief in Jesus words, and being without the garment of Faith was cast into the outer darkness.

“As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.” John 6:66

Those who don’t believe Jesus words, never even make it to the feast.

In these two instances we see Jesus parable of the Great Feast of the King play out.
Those invited by the Lord to eat his flesh and drink his blood in Covenant in John 6 are like those who were first invited by the King but refused.

Judas the man who did attend the feast but was without the wedding garment of faith and belief in Jesus words, was cast into the outer darkness.

Either way you must believe Jesus words to attend this Feast. Whether you do not take this invitation in disbelief or attend it in disbelief, it ends in great loss.

You must pass through this singularity of Faith as little children who believe by Faith not by understanding.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” John 6:65

The Father enables little children of Faith who believe Jesus words in faith, but yet do not understand.

“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.“

Believe Jesus words as little children, you will not believe as the wise and learned.

“ My Flesh is real food and my blood is real drink “

The wise and the learned say nonsense, impossible, ridiculous.

The little children of Faith believe it because Jesus said it, that is more than enough for them. And they make no qualifications.

If I am not mistaken, you confuse Jesus' teaching regarding Him being the true bread of life with His teaching of Passover remembrance.

John 6:47-48, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. . . ."

 

[Cathode]

If I am not mistaken, you confuse Jesus' teaching regarding Him being the true bread of life with His teaching of Passover remembrance.

John 6:47-48, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. . . ."

If people believe Jesus, they would eat His flesh and drink His blood to receive that everlasting life.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the Last day”

Not enough to say you believe then not attend the feast, and not eat His Body and drink His blood. What kind of cheap belief is that?

It is not just a remembrance, it is the New and Everlasting Covenant.

 

[37818]

If people believe Jesus, they would eat His flesh and drink His blood to receive that everlasting life.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the Last day”

Not enough to say you believe then not attend the feast, and not eat His Body and drink His blood. What kind of cheap belief is that?

It is not just a remembrance, it is the New and Everlasting Covenant.

Which Jesus explains, in John 6:35, ". . . Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . ."
And, in John 6:47-48, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. . . ." Which you seem not understand because it means what it says and you do not believe it. And this has absolutely nothing to do with the Passover remembrance. Which is not presented in anywhere in John.

 

[Cathode]

Which Jesus explains, in John 6:35, ". . . Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. . . ."
And, in John 6:47-48, ". . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. . . ." Which you seem not understand because it means what it says and you do not believe it. And this has absolutely nothing to do with the Passover remembrance. Which is not presented in anywhere in John.

People don’t come to Jesus in the Covenant feast, they don’t recognise the Lord at the breaking of the bread.

At Communion we do come to Jesus, because we believe it is Jesus Himself and we eat His flesh and drink His blood as He said.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in him”

“ So he who eats me, will live because of me “

If people really believed, they would come to Jesus in the Eucharist and receive His Life in Covenant.
But in not believing, they do come to Him, do not eat and do not drink Life.

“ You search the scriptures think that in them you have life, scripture bears witness to me, yet you refuse to come to me that might live”

“But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.”

Many are called but few are chosen.