Transubstantiation!!

Alex,

Would you please review the Supper as Regarding it by faith?
We apply the same faith when we believe that we were crucified at the cross with Christ, don't you?
It doesn't mean that we were at the scene of Crucifixion. We were not nailed either, but believe our old person died at the Cross and live no longer, but Christ lives in us.

By faith we just regard it as Body and Blood.

Can we not apply the same faith to the Supper?

 

CHAP. 2 THE FLESH AND BLOOD


John 6:53-58 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

The next spiritual truth that we will examine, which has been literalized by the church of Rome, is the Eucharist. The church of Rome contends that Christ was speaking of changing the bread and wine of the above verses, into the literal body, and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. She also contends that true believers must partake of this literal body and blood. Of course, the only ones that can perform this transubstantiation, or changing of bread and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ, are the priests of the church of Rome. In this way again, the church of Rome has sought to set herself up in a position of power and authority over all those who would be true believers. Indeed, over all the world, if they wish to be saved.

If indeed, bread and wine must be transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ, and only the priest's of Rome can perform this miracle, then all are dependent upon Rome for salvation. So now, Peter was handed special authority over the church of Christ, whom the Popes now represent. In this manner, a mere man has been put in between humanity and God. Now also, the priests in subjection to this man, have been given by him, the power to perform this miracle by which the true believer may partake of Christ unto salvation. Both of these claims to authority come to the church of Rome by the literalization of spiritual truths in the holy scriptures. They also both put mere men between humanity and God, a thing which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came specifically to abolish. We will discuss this issue in more depth in following chapters.

Let us examine the spiritual truth of the above verses which is ignored by the church of Rome so as to establish herself in authority. After saying in verse fifty six, "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him", Christ goes on in the very next verse to explain what he had just said. " 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me " Are we to suppose from the above verses, that Christ was continually changing bread and wine into the literal body and blood of his Father while here on earth, and eating him, so as to live by his Father? Of course not. We know that the Father lived within the Son through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which he gave to his son ( Jn. 1:32 ). This is why Christ came to earth, and became one of us. So that He could dwell within the believer through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God. This does not happen by ingesting the literal body and blood of Christ, but by faith in the son of God, and submission to his will. Observe the following scriptures.

John 17:17-23 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The Father was in Christ, and Christ was in him. This was not accomplished by Christ eating the literal flesh and blood of the Father. Likewise, Christ does not live in the believer by the ingestion of his literal flesh and blood. Christ was our example in all things, as the Father was in Christ, and Christ in Him, so are we to be in Christ, that the Father and Son might be in us. Verse seventeen points out how this takes place. True believers are sanctified through God's truth, His word is truth. It is by the ingestion, or taking in of God's word, that believers receive the Holy Spirit of God. This is a spiritual experience, not a literal one. However, it will have literal effects in your life, by conforming the believer into the likeness of the Father and Son, which is salvation.

Matt 4:4 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Those who receive the word of God, and take it in, intending to make it the rule of their lives, are those whom the Holy Spirit of God will come into and use for God's glory. This is how God dwells within the believer, not by eating and drinking some wine and bread that some claim to have changed into the body and blood of Christ. It requires no change of heart, or mind, to eat some bread, and drink some wine. On the other hand, it requires submission to God, to believe, and act upon his word. This can be accomplished only by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God, and it unquestionably changes the heart, and actions of the believer into the likeness of their Lord's. This spiritual truth is lost sight of, in the literal interpretation of Christ's words regarding the subject at hand.

John 14:15-21 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Those who love God will endeavor to keep his commandments. Only those who have made this choice, that is to allow Christ to rule in their lives, will receive the Spirit of truth. Without this Holy Spirit, it is impossible to serve God, or keep his commandments. The world cannot receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit comes by way of acceptance of, and submission to the word of God. This is why only true believers can enter into the experience that Christ is referring to when he speaks of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. By literalizing this truth, and making the act the mere ingestion of bread and wine, the church of Rome has set up a system, and a people who have only a form of godliness, denying the power thereof.

1 Cor 11:24-27 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

As Paul points out in the above verses, partaking of the bread and wine, is a reminder of the Lord's death on our behalf, till he comes again. This is exactly where all true believers begin, and maintain their walk with God, at the foot of the cross. It is by entering into Christ's death, the full submission and surrender of self, that Christ is enabled to live within us. Accepting Christ's death for us, not only in our place, but as our own death, that we make walk in newness of life, by the power of the Holy Spirit of God. This is what it means to eat the flesh, and drink the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To be in him at his death, that he might be in us in newness of life, his life, not our own. For Christ was obedient to the Father, even to the point of death, that we might die with him, in order to receive power to be obedient to the Father also. You in Christ, and Christ in you, the hope of glory. We will end this chapter with the following verses.

Rom 6:3-7 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Gal 3:27 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Col 1:26-27 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

What does Rm 6:11 have to do with either Communion or regarding something by faith?

Of course, I do and I am connected to those events by means of Baptism, Communion, and God's word.

 

Chemnitz,

I was talking about the way and method of interpretting the Bible.
Were you crucified at the Cross with Christ?
You may say Yes. But does it mean that you were actually there 2,000 years ago? Wasn't Christ crucified on your behalf ? Then God declared that you were crucified and therefore you were forgiven?

Romans 6:11 asks us to reckon dead to sin. Does it mean that you are dead physically ?

It is a matter of Regarding and Reckoning by Faith, not the change of the substance by the prayer of the priests.

I don't need the prayer of the priests in order to believe that I was crucified with Christ at the Cross. Likewise, regardless of what the priests are praying, I believe that I receive the body and blood of Christ by faith.

 

Kamoroso, when you're quoting from someone else's work, please give the source of that quote. It helps the rest of us to understand the theology behind the quote and also helps the mods comply with copyright laws

 

Prayers, who is talking about prayers. I am not talking about prayers, why do you keep bringing up prayers? They are not a means of communicating grace. Only God's word of promise, Baptism, and Holy Communion are used to connect us with the events of 2000 yrs ago.

How can you say that you recieve Christ's body and blood when you have time after time denied that he offers His body and blood along with the elements of bread and wine? Or are you changing your story?

 

Eliyahu,

Please stop with your constant harping about the prayers of priests changing the substance of bread and wine. It is by God's grace and the action of the Holy Spirit that God's purpose is accomplished in the Eucharist: giving us our Lord's Body and Blood.

Kamoroso:

Your quotes are obviously from a viciously anti-Catholic demogogue, and are unworthy of a reply.

If YOU choose to reply to my posts with answers of YOUR own (instead of the words of a bigot), I'll be happy to chat with you.

Alexander

 

Believe, Regard, Reckon and Take the Bread and Wine as Body and Blood by Faith. This is the teaching, regardless of the substance. It doesn't mention the transformation of the substances by priests.

 

Eliyahu,

You are in no position to label my beliefs as false doctrine. Unless, of course, you have assumed for yourself the position of infallabiity, which is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic church and applies only to the Pope. Are you claiming that you, too, like the Holy Father in Rome, are infallible and thus have determined that my doctrince is false. Tell me - - - who made you infallible, so that you can determine the truth or falsity of my beliefs?

You have consistently not read my posts AND have not answered the questions I've asked.

I'm coming to think that you have no reliable Scriptural source to refute me.

I will state again what I have stated in a prior post (please pay attention this time and READ it): There is NO MAGIC in the priest's prayers or in anyone elses. However, God has promised in Holy Scripture that receiving the Eucharist is receiving our Lord's Body and Blood. How much simpler can it be? NO MAGIC - - - ONLY GOD'S PROMISE, AS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE AND TAUGHT BY HIS (ORTHODOX) CHURCH FOR 2,000 YEARS.

What God promises, He does. NO MAGIC! Got it?

Did you read it this time?

Alexander

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Are you insane now ?
You must present the proof where I assumed Infallibility for myself as Roman Pope Pius IX claimed.
If you cannot provide it, you must apologize to me. Otherwise I will remember you as a False Accuser and will not respond to you any more.

 

Eliyahu,

You stated in your post #912:

"Please stop posting false doctrines!"

You are in no position to determine the falsity of my doctrinal understanding unless you have assumed a position of your own infallibility.

No apology is necessary.

Alexander

 

Thank you Kamoroso.
This is a Wonderful Post about the Supper.
Catholic spend a lot of space in excusing about the Transubstantiation and mention John ch 6 in detail. However, the whole chapter of John 6 is not about the Supper, but about the Salvation, Being Born Again, Receiving the Words of God.
The people who do not have experienced the true Salvation do not understand this chapter. This can be confirmed from the Bible.
John 6: 53
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

But we must note that Jesus mentioned this:
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Therefore eating His Flesh and drinking his Blood mean believing in Jesus Christ who is the everlasting life.

This can be confirmed when we think about the Robber at the Cross. He never participated in the Supper, but he entered the Paradise, while Catholic claims the most of Catholic believers are going to Purgatory !

When Jesus said, “This is my body” Does it mean that the Bread was converted into Flesh? ( Was it cooked quickly?) Nope! It means “ You should take it as Flesh by believing and by faith. I was crucified with Christ at the Cross ( Gal 2:20)
Do I have scars and bruises on my hands and on my feet? Nope ! But I have no doubt that I was crucified with Christ.
Romans 6:4 We were buried with him by baptism into death. Have we ever been buried into the tomb of Calvary? Nope !
We believe, reckon, and regard it as it is written in Romans 6:11
We regard Bread as Body, and Wine as Blood by faith, and believe that they are Body and Blood, even though the substances remain the same.

So, we take the Bread and Wine and believe, regard and reckon them as Body and Blood, which is very simple by faith.
Catholic explanation (Encyclopedia and Catechism, etc) is very, very lengthy. Do you know the reason why? Guess why!

 

Nate,

Thanks for your post.
When I checked the RC sites, I noticed they leave the room for the external accidents which remain unchanged. I am not sure this may be interpretted as Partial Transubstantiation or Dual Transubstantiation because RC distinguish between Substance and Accident in reality.

Then when we turn to Protestants, we notie they neglect or less often remember the importance of the formal rituals for Lord Supper.

In that aspect, Protestant may excuse that they also mentioned the Supper as a matter of Faith. But in fact Symbolism or Memorial or Remembrance is talking about different aspect of the subject. Underneath, in depth it is a matter of Faith which means Believe, Regard, Reckon, Take, and Practice. The surface or partial aspects may be called Memorial, Symbol, or Remembrance.

 

For those concerned, I have permission from the writer to post chapters from his book. We know each other well.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

That's nice Kamoroso, but it doesn't help us if we want to check your sources.

 

What do you want to know about the sources? Perhaps I can help you.

 

The title and the author, maybe the page number or website address.

 

The title is CHRIST AND ROME. I am the auther. It is not a published work.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith