Transubstantiation!!

Eliyahu,

This is the second thread in this forum on which you have stated that I am not a true Christian.

Again, I request that you withdraw and retract that statement before I am prepared to engage with you again.

 

Unfortunately I do not find any clue that you have been converted at all.

If you want to hold Transubstantiation, then you must present the sample of the flesh and blood which were converted from bread and wine.

Please let RCC prove it by testing at Laboratories. Otherwise, they cannot claim it.
Jesus asked Thomas to touch his body after resurrection. Why RCC cannot do so ?

 

Umm...okay....likewise.

 

Agreed to disagree each other

 

Why don't you be "Believing Thomas" ?

 

Because I can relate to "Doubting Thomas". This is particularly true a few years ago when I signed up on this board. I was still a Baptist, but had doubts about certain things taught in the Baptist churches being passed off as "biblical". This is why I chose the handle I did (plus my last name is Thomas). Now, after that past few years have gone by, I have doubts about the "biblical-ness" of many more "baptistic" doctrines.

(However, let there be no doubt--I don't doubt everything. )

 

Thanks for your explanation.

In my experience, I was quite ardent about Christianity after I was baptized but before I was truly born again, defending the existence of God and Superiority of Christian religion to any other religion, fight against atheism, etc. But I didn't recognize the problems with my own.
I had the problem with Blood poisoning originated from Athlete foot, then got the fever 43-44 celsius for 3 days and over 39 degrees for one month, then lost the whole memory for what I had studied for. Afterwards, I started to realize that this world is not so hopeful, even though I was attending the church without fail every sunday before. After one year I concluded that the whole world is irretrievably corrupted and myself too. Then I decided to blow up myself, demanding the whole world to follow me. Preparing a suicide bomb, I checked with the chemical market and developed a device for ignition. At that time one big thought hit me, that I should check with God. I thought God was just a spectator watching the tragedy of the people without doing anything. When I attended a church the pastor asked the attendants to read Galatians 2:20 where I found myself was already crucified and there was no need to commit suicide. Thereafter my life changed very much clearly. Now I do not live for myself but for my Lord who loved me so much that he died at the Cross.
This is why I often distinguish the churchmen and born again Christian.
Hope you have something like this, as John Wesley, Pascal, Harry Ironside, John Newton, Apostle Paul, Martin Luther, have it.

 

"Which denomination else than Holy Roman Catholic say that the Bread and Wine are converted by the prayer of the priests?"


The confusion
is either caused by Protestants being ignorant of Aristitilian logic or ignoring it for the purpose of hating Catholics.

 

True churches existed throughout the ages and throughout the history, which believed the truth biblically, denying Mother of God, denying Transubstantiation, denying Papacy, etc.

Baptists emerged on the surface only in the later centuries, but it doesn't mean that they didn't exist before.

I believe that even Baptists believe the Bread and Wine mean the body and blood. The main objection is that the Bread and Wine are converted into different material by the prayer of priests, which means a Magic Performance, IMO

 

Do the Roman Catholics eat the flesh and drink blood ?

What does Bible say about this?

1 Cor 11:26
ye eat this bread, and drink this cup

(not the flesh and the blood)

One more question is about RC practices.
Why don't they celebrate the cup of the Lord?
Because I notice that they don't distribute the cup to their members, but the cup is drunk by the priests only. Is it because the RC priests are so much alcoholic ?

 

here we have "pure fiction" and "pure superstition" from the dark ages being promoted for today. In the world of superstition "The elements have no properties". They "pretend" that Jesus EVER said "elements have no properties" but nothing of the kind has ever been stated in scripture and it is pure nonsense to dream up the idea that "elements have no physical properties".

Notice that the bread "is hard" it can be touched and the liquid RETAINS it's property NOT only as liquid BUT As grape juice or wine! So it DOES have properties. Which means the RC myth is NOT ONLY the that "ELEMENT" of Christ's body does NOT have physical properties IT MUST ALSO IMAGINE that something that IS NOT AN ELEMENT DOES have the physical propery of hydrocarbons (for bread and wine) that is NOT bread and wine but merely provides the physical properties of bread and wine.

So the ELEMENT the SUBSTANCE is body and blood -- but then to get the physical properties that we SEE and taste "something else" is there providing what the SUBSTANCE, what the ELEMENT would normally provide.

The hights of superstition and imagination that go FAR BEYOND anything written in scripture - and yet that must be imagined by the RC teaching - are truly a monument to human imagination and superstition.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The RCC says the RC Eucharist would be pure “idolatry” if non-Catholics are right about priests having no magic powers to “confect GOD”!

The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351

Parenthetical inserts “mine”

 

I for one believe what they say above about the implications of their superstition being in error

 

What sort of 'clue' do you want?

I don't. I do however affirm the Real Presence because I believe it to be both Biblical and what the Church has taught.

 

Actually even the Baptists weren't wholly memorialist initially:-

London Baptist Confession (1689)

28. Baptism and the Lord's Supper
1. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of positive and sovereign institution, appointed by the Lord Jesus, the only lawgiver, to be continued in His Church to the end of the world.
2. These holy appointments are to be administered only by those who are qualified and called to administer them, according to the commission of Christ.

30. The Lord's Supper
1. The Supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by Him the same night on which He was betrayed to be observed in His churches until the end of the world for the perpetual remembrance, and showing forth of the sacrifice of Himself in His death. It was also instituted by Christ to confirm believers in all the benefits of His death; - for their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him; - for their further engagement in and commitment to all the duties which they owe to Him; - and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him and with their fellow believers.
2. In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to His Father, nor is there any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin (of the living or the dead). There is only a memorial of that one offering up of Christ by Himself upon the cross once for all, the memorial being accompanied by a spiritual oblation of all possible praise to God for Calvary. Therefore, the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, being injurious to Christ's own sacrifice, which is the only propitiation for all the sins of the elect.
3. The Lord Jesus has, in this ordinance, appointed His ministers to pray and bless the elements of bread and wine (so setting them apart from a common to a holy use) and to take and break the bread, then to take the cup, and to give both to the communicants, also communicating themselves.
4. The denial of the cup to the people, the practices of worshipping the elements, lifting them up or carrying them about for adoration, or reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.
5. The outward elements in this ordinance which are correctly set apart and used as Christ ordained, so closely portray Him as crucified, that they are sometimes truly (but figuratively) referred to in terms of the things they represent, such as the body and blood of Christ. However in substance and nature they still remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before.
6. The doctrine commonly called transubstantiation, which maintains that a change occurs in the substance of the bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood, when consecrated by a priest or by any other way, is repugnant not only to Scripture but even to common sense and reason. It overthrows the nature of the ordinance, and both has been and is the cause of a host of superstitions and of gross idolatries.
7. Worthy receivers, outwardly taking the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly and spiritually by faith, truly and in fact, but not carnally and corporally, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of His death. The body and blood of Christ is not present corporally or carnally but it is spiritually present to the faith of believers in the ordinance, just as the elements are present to their outward senses.
8. All ignorant and ungodly persons who are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ are equally unworthy of the Lord's Table, and therefore cannot without great sin against Him, take a share in these holy mysteries or be admitted to the Supper while they remain in that condition. Indeed those who receive (the elements) unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgement to themselves.

(Italics mine)

 

And your evidence for this is...?

 

"Can't we all just get along?" without accusing each other of being heathen? I can understand discussing these matters, but how many people are being driven away by these attitudes? Does it edify? Does it attract people to the faith? I pray for civility and unity.

 

Fine by me. I'm not the one questioning people's salvation.